Holding back ranks

[Wwilkerson]

I was wondering if somweone can explain this to me. A couple of boys in our Troop have completed all of the requirements for "life", but the SM & ASM have made the decision to not award the ranks for another 6 moonths or so, "until they mature a little more". These boys both are a little discouraged and the parents have said that the boys don't feel like attending the meetings. I am afraid this will be the case with my son. He has been a Boy Scout for 4 months and just earned Tenderfoot, and he only has requirement left for 2nd Class. I was told he probably won't be able to earn this until next year. Is this standard? I can't see how it is fair or encouraging to a boy scout to hold him back, even though he has completed all requirements.Any thoughts?

[OldGreyEagle]

No, its not standard or even sanctioned, but before I give you advice to get medieval on their backside you may want to ask the SM and ASM what are their thoughts on the matter. It may be an eye opener either way. They may have information that you don't have, they may have a line of thinking that makes sense, or not, but you won't know unless you ask(This message has been edited by OldGreyeagle)

[Eagle92]

In reference to holding back ranks, once they meet the requirements, they are ready for the BOR. Now a SM conferecne is needed, and if a SM thinks a Scout isn't ready and needs more maturing, then that is the time and place for the socut to be informed. Also, for lack of a better term, "improvement plan' be worked aout between the two and worked on.

 

Now I was involved with a decision to advise a young man that he needed some "seasoning" before earning Life. The SM wanted the opinion and input from all his ASMs, including the young man's father, and almost all of us agreed he needed some seasoning. the key was how the SM presented it to the scout. If it was perceived as

being "held back" then that is obviously negative and detrimental to all concerned.

 

The way it was recommended, and followed up by the SM was in a 'constructive criticism" with a plan to improve. He noted that the scout had all the skills and knowledge to be Life, but that the challenge was his interactions with the other scouts. Since he was a "fast mover," i.e. 12.5 years old and Star, he needed to work on his interatcions with both the younger and older youth. the Scout and the SM talked about ideas to improve this sitation, giving a timeline on whenhe maybe ready and things worked out. Only complaint I had was that I moved before he eventually got his Eagle.

 

As for your son and the 2nd class requirements, may i ask which one? If it is the swimming requirement, that may be the challenge. While 7A is easy to do, and I believe the scout can earn the Safe Swim Defense certifaction online (don't quote me on that), 7B, which is the Beginner Swim test, and that should have been done at summer camp. In my neck of the woods, if you don't do it at sumemr camp, it can be a pain in the buttocks to find a place to do it at.

 

The Swimmer test, 75 feet using a forward stroke, 25 feet using a back stroke, float for a minute, is required for First class. We had one guy goofing off during the swim test at camp his first year. Didn't think it was important as he wasn't takign any aquatics MBs. Well it comes time for him to go for First class and he discovers that he needed to pass that test after all. BUT he had to wait until we could find a pool to do it.

 

Good luck.

[scoutldr]

I don't recall that "Be as mature as your SM thinks you should be" is a requirement for any rank. Scout Spirit is, however.

[evmori]

Unless there is a serious Scout Spirit issue, it is up to the BOR to determine if the scout is ready to advance. And let us not forget, a SM Conference is not a pass/fail requirement. It is a participate in requirement.

 

Waiting 6 months more to mature? At a Tenderfoot's age, that ain't gonna happen!

[Eagle92]

It was part of the SM conference, and related to his duties as a PL. The young man in my situation was super knowledgable, but had difficulties relaying that knowledge to his patrol. Lots of arguing and bickering in the patrol as his peers didn't view him as a PL,for a variety of reasons. Also the rest of the PLC also didn't take him seriouly as he was the youngest member at 12.

 

Biggest reason was that there were times when he was responsible for something that he would goof off on. Yes it's reasonable for a 12 year old to act like such, heck I know adults who act 12 at times , but there is a time and a place for that. Part of the mentoring we, the SM and all the ASMs inclduign dad, wanted was some improvement in his new role as TG. TGs have alot of the same responsibilities. The mentoring and counseling did help, and it did make him a better leader.

 

 

[Eagle92]

EV,

I was typing as you posted. In my situation, it was for Life. You are correct the SM's conference isn't pass or fail, but it is suppose to be an honest assessment of not only the scout, but also the troop program. It is to be used as a mentoring and counseling tool. And we didn't make him wait 6 months, the scout was counseled, came up with an improvement plan, and then went for the BOR about 2 or three months later.

 

Now for the situation in the OP, I would like to know details and how the process is going about for the Life Scouts.

 

As for the poster's son, I would like to know what requirement is missing that will take so long to meet, and I bet it is Req. 7B.

 

[Hal_Crawford]

Eagle92:

Just to clarify, the BSA Swimmer test (requirement for First Class) is 75 YARDS (not feet) forward stroke and 25 yards elementary back stroke. The Second Class requirement is 25 FEET out, a sharp turn and then returning to the starting point.

 

I may be accused of deleting requirements but we don't require a scout to do the 2nd Class requirement (aka Beginner test) if they can successfully complete the Swimmer Test. Since the Swimmer Test far exceeds the Beginner test they get two sign offs at once. This seems to be consistent with scout camp practice.

 

Hal

 

[Eagle92]

You're right, long day at work.

[IM_Kathy]

I have been around scouts that were kept from getting a rank for a time period... 1 was in our former troop and it was the SM's son and he signed off scout spirit and it envolved an episode on a campout that the members on BOR heard about and told him his behavior and attitude needed to improve to recieve his rank approval (was for star or life forget which) the other was with our current troop and it also had to deal with behavior and was handled at SMC with a set of what needs improved with a date for them to work toward.

 

as to your son needing just another requirement for 2nd class and it may taking him a year to get... that depends on what the requirement is. The troop my son is with typically does the orienteering course once or twice a year... the swimming we do once and then at camp. If a boy does not complete the test that time or is unable to attend then he may in fact not advance as quickly as others that joined at the same time. We are limited to when we can do our orienteering course because it's where the little league and soccer club plays so we have to do it when it's not being used... our swimming we usually do soon after new boys join so that if we are doing a boating activity before summer camp we know who can fully participate and who we need to make other arrangements for.

[Wwilkerson]

Thank you for all of your input. I do not know all of the details of the older boys, but I do know that they were all told a variation of "We need to see some maturity from you in the next 6 months before you have a BOR". And, come to find out, there is a third boy as well. These boys are all 13-14 yrs old.

 

As for my son, the requirement he has left to complete for 2nd Class is #8a, "Complete a drug program" (paraphrasing). Our school system has a county-wide drug program every October, so he will be finished with his requirements at that time. He will be terribly disappointed if he has to wait until spring to earn the actual rank. I can not see the benefit in holding an 11 year boy's rank back if he has completed everything. Not to mention that he has 1/2 of the requirements for 1st Class met. He won't want to bother and I can't say that I will blame him. He is a high achiever motivated by badges and patches right now. I know that will change with time, but I am afraid he will lose interest if he is put on a "rank-a-year" program. We did that in Cub Scouts. Boy Scouts was represented to us as go at your own pace program. I understand the importance of "Scout Spirit" and working well with others, but 11 year old boys are, well, 11 year old boys.

[Eagle92]

8A is going to hold your son up ?!?!?!?!?! I think your son needs to have chat with his PL to see if that is going to hold him up. Then have the son move up to the SPL, then SM. If SM says 'yep you have to wait," then either A) get involved, or B) switch troops.

[Twocubdad]

W:

 

While the other posters have correctly given you the by-the-book BSA advancement policy, I think the real answer to your question -- and how an experienced Scoutmaster handles boys in this situation -- is much more nuanced than the black-letter advancement policy.

 

Looking for a Scout to show more maturity and a better understanding of the program is not a bad thing. How Scout leaders go about accomplishing that is another matter. I would hope the leaders in your son's troop are doing a better job of working with the Scouts that what you describe.

 

Part of my responsibility as a Scoutmaster is to see that the boys in the unit I serve get the most out of the program. Part of that is making sure they advance at reasonable rate. Not too fast, not too slow. I want to make sure the Scouts have time to absorb the value of the program. A kid who is totally focused on advancement and blows through Eagle before he hits 14 isn't getting the most he can from the program, in my opinion.

 

So what to do about it? One of the Uber-troops around here has minimum age requirements for each rank. I think it ends up that they require their Scouts to be 15 for Life, 16 to start an Eagle Project and 16.5 to be Eagle. That's just wrong. It's also unnecessary.

 

As some of the other posters have alluded, there is an appropriate way to put the brakes on boys who are advancing too quickly. My preferred method is to disract them with other elements of the program -- Philmont, jamboree, OA.

 

The tools of the trade are to control the merit badge process. If your troop is running a MB mill, and boys have 14 MBs before they hit First Class, the troop doesn't have much right to complain about an immature 12-year-old going up for Life. In our troop, new Scouts don't work on merit badges, period. If a new boy asks me for a blue card, I redirect him to his handbook and the requirements he needs to complete for his next rank. At summer camp new Scouts can earn Swimming and a couple of light MBs. Through the course of their first year they may pick up a couple more MBs as part of the troop program. This spring, for example, the whole troop spent six weeks preparing for a canoe trek, including a prep weekend where everyone learned to handle a canoe. I think we wound up with over 20 boys earning Canoeing MB, including many of the first year kids.

 

As I mentioned on the thread about summer camp merit badges, we don't allow our scouts to earn Communications, Personal Fitness or any of the citizenship MBs at summer camp. For those five, plus

Personal Management and Family Life, our Scouts have to go through the process of individually working with MB counselors the old fashioned way, making and keeping appointments and working through the requirements with the counselor. That takes much more time than sitting through five days of classes at camp or one afternoon at the local merit badge university.

 

As they guys get older and are working on Star, Life and Eagle, we try to manage the Positions of Responsibility, too. I don't subscribe to the idea that we have to create a POR for everyone who needs one. Boys have to earn their positions. If you make First Class in May, you have to wait until September for the PORs to open again and then serve your four months. (Actually, you serve the full six-month term, but the requirement for Star is only four months.)

 

An Eagle project can add another six months to a year, from the time a Scout first asks to begin working on his project through final write-up.

 

None of this is draconian. It just comes across as how we do things. The natural rhythm of the troop. Occasionally we get a Scout (or most often his parents) who are all full of wiz and vinegar to blow through advancement. But they tend to chill out after they realize this isn't Cub Scouts and you aren't a failure if you don't get a belt loop or an arrow point at every pack meeting. No "my way or the highway" confrontations, but directing the Scout to a part of the program more appropriate for him.

 

I've been SM more than four years now, and the first group of boys who came into the troop four years ago are just beginning to go for Eagle. Two of them are well into their Eagle projects. I suspect over the next 18 months, most of them will earn Eagle. Most they will complete Eagle before their 17th birthday. Surprisingly, that's a little faster than what was usual for the troop before I took over. Then, the usual track was to blow through Life by 13 and do nothing for three or four years before scrambling to finish the Eagle requirements at the very last minute.

[jac0033]

I think each scout sets his own pace on advancement. Holding back POR until a scout is 1st Class is just adding to the requirement. Telling a scout he can not work a merit badge at summer camp because it does not take long enough to complete is against the merit badge process. A scout can work on any merit badge he wishes as long as there are no age requirements or prerequisites, yes I may ask him if he thinks he ready for this badge and maybe suggest a different badge, but it is his choice not mine to attempt a badge at summer camp or elsewhere. If he struggles with the badge he may think twice about which badge to attempt. Failure is not always negative. I learn from my mistakes all the time.

 

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

New Scouts cross over the end of February. Registration for sumer camp merit badges is April 1. A new boy who has been in the troop four weeks, less than half-way through Tenderfoot decides he wants to take at summer camp Enviromental Science, Communications, Emergency Prep and all three citizenship merit badges.

 

You would be okay with that? It's the Scout's decision, right?

 

I don't think that is anything remotely resembling an appropriate merit badge schedule for a first-year Scout. In addition to having a miserable week at camp, I've been around long enough to forsee the problems we will have down the road.

 

My job is to guide that boy through the program in meaningful way. We're not adding to the requirements, rather we're coaching the Scout to help them understand the program and to make decisions based on good information, not just a desire to get to Eagle as quickly as possible.

 

It isn't about having a list of "Thou Shall Not" troop policies, it's about sitting down with a Scout and helping him see the big picture and to chart a course that's in his best interest. I can only think of one or two occasions where I've had to say, "No I won't approve that." And every one of those times it was because the PARENTS were pushing the boy to take a particular set of MBs. Usually a friendly conversation to help the Scout see the full scope of the program and to help him set appropriate goals for himself is all that's needed.

 

Yes, boys should advance at their own pace and decide what classes the want to take for themselves. But they don't do that in a vacuum. It's our responsibility to help the Scout learn to make good decisions.

 

Another point -- Yes, I think most camps (ours anyway) make merit badges too easy. This is especially true with the academically-oriented Eagle required badges. If the requirement is to "Discuss XYZ with your counselor" the counselor holds a general, classroom discussion with all 20 kids taking the class. The boy who dozed through the discussion gets the same credit at the kid who was animated and involved in the class. That's not right and doesn't meet the requirement, in my opinion. The activity-based badges -- canoeing, archery, pioneering, etc. -- the boys are at least up and active and doing stuff. If you don't qualify at the rifle range, you don't get the badge. There's no hiding at the back of the class.

 

The other thing summer camp, merit badge colleges and some troop "merit badge classes" short circuit is the whole area of the merit badge program which requires a Scout to take the personal initiative to contact a counselor, make and keep an appointment, prepare themselves and their material, and work with an adult who is an expert in the field.

 

I remember working on Cit/Nation with Mr. Ivey. He was a high-end lawyer in town and unlike most of my MB counselors, was not a part of our troop. I really didn't know him. I had to call his secretary and make an appointment and go to his office in full uniform to meet him. I was scared to death. But it was a terrific experience. I had to meet with him twice. The first time we went through the requirements and he told me what he wanted me to do. The second time we reviewed everything then walked across the street to the courthouse where he gave me a tour, including introducing me to the judge during open court. All the other lawyers, defendants and cops are waiting while the judge quizzes me about Scout, school and junior high football.

 

Where else do kids get experiences like that? Certainly not sitting at a picnic table with 20 other sleep-deprived Scouts and a 19-year-old camp counselor.

 

Our troop leaders also agree that it's not asking too much of an Eagle Scout to put forth the extra effort on a handful of merit badges. To paraphrase JFK, we choose to do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. We want to challenge our boys. We want to make them stretch to reach their goals. We want to make them get the most they can out of the program.