Are Life Scouts ready for Eagle process?

[Beavah]

Doing an Eagle project is a learning experience. The scout must to be taught and/or advised on how to do things. You do your best to promote initiative and independent thinking with the scout but sometimes they just don't know how to 'do stuff'. C'mon, they are a teenager and have little life experience and/or experience in project management upon which to rely.

 

The above quote was from CA_Scouter in da parent thread, and seemed worthy of further discussion.

 

I confess that my first thought was "Well why in the world don't they know how to do stuff? We've had 'em in scouting for quite a few years, and presumably they've learned how to plan and run outings, lead groups of different kids in a variety of circumstances, etc. etc. We're not sending them fresh faced to an Eagle project, this is da culmination of years of instruction and mentoring on our part. If they're not ready, then there's somethin' very wrong with how we administered First Class and Star and Life ranks.

 

Then I got to thinkin' some more and lookin' at the requirements and practice. I think two things have happened over time, and they sorta crept up on us. First thing is that the project has become bigger and bigger with time. If not the actual project, then the paperwork end. Same with the Eagle Application process. Lots of extra paperwork and procedure and hoops and loops for 'em to fly. References, personal statements, lists of outside positions, project budgets, reports, proposals, etc.

 

At the same time, First Class First Year and other trends have led us to move pretty fast through the early ranks, and really reduce the load on Star and Life. Though boys should have had time to develop leadership skills, and write a proposal for an outing or the annual calendar, and work through budgets for their patrol for outings, or contact outfitters to make arrangements, or plan safety for a trip, none of those things is actually required. And to be honest, da youth in most troops these days really don't do that stuff. Our trend is to pursue Life Scout in a minimalized to the requirements way.

 

In that case CA_Scouter is quite right, eh? We've added a lot at Eagle that didn't exist before, and we haven't really taught or prepared the lads for what we're asking of them. I expect that's part of what's been behind the explosion of adult "Eagle Advisors" out there.

 

What do yeh all think?

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

My only thought: Personal Management is part of the 3 "90 day" merit badges. I don't know how many youth don't do it until they are Life Scouts, and, in some cases... with their projects in process.

 

If I was the Chairman of whatever volunteer works with the VP for the Council Solutions Group at National, I'd change Personal Management to being required for Life Scout.

 

Beyond that, I think all concerned need to re-visit where we are and what we do. Look at the new Eagle app. More data the young man has to collect (now we've added email addresses for the references).

 

My thoughts only.

[John-in-KC]

Duplicate post. sigh.(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[Stosh]

The only thing I can think of that has as much paperwork are 6-Sigma green/black belt projects. Most of the people here dred the paperwork and it extends the workload 2-3 times just to get it documented.

 

Boys that are good with their leadership skills may not be good at paperwork and thus it makes it more work than many may think it's worth. How many scouts have done the project and found the paperwork and approval process more work than what they did for the project?

 

Stosh

[gwd-scouter]

Using my observations of my two sons:

 

Eric was 14 when he did his Eagle Project, Patrick is almost 16. Patrick has done more on his own and worked through the bugs and problems he encountered along the way better than Eric did.

 

It may not just be about age. When Eric was in the Troop, it was very adult-led and PORs weren't much more than a patch on the sleeve. Patrick, on the other hand, has had more experience in organizing things and working with people. Not to mention a couple of summers working at camp and a lot of activity with the OA - things I think have helped him, too.

 

Thinking about all the things Patrick has had to do to get ready for his project, I can say there isn't a Scout in our Troop at age 14 or under that could have pulled it off without a lot of adult help. At least not at this point.

 

 

 

[asm 411]

My son is 13 and completed his Life BOR about 3 weeks ago. He got the Council Eagle Packet a couple days later.

 

It seems a bit daunting to me. As we looked over the contents one page at a time they all seem to make sense but is all this really necessary?

 

Why is it that all the other rank requirements follow the simple process of signing off the completion in the handbook but the Eagle Scout requirements require so much more? I know this is very high honor being an Eagle myself but really.

 

The Eagle Project Workbook makes sense except page 2 and the last page. Page 2 is an about the Eagle Rank requirements and the last page is about the whole process. It is even a different color. This last should be a page in the Handbook so that way the Scouts know what it is about and have an easy reference to it. I feel like this a bit of the old bait and switch. Here are the requirements for Eagle. Oh yeah and here are a few more.

 

Why do Scouts need the letters of reference? Realistically are there Life Scouts that can not get 4 to 6 people (depending on employment and religious organization) to say good things about him. Has anyone ever had a Scout that could not finish the Eagle paperwork because he did not have enough references? Not did not get the references in on time or something got muddle up but really did not have 4-6 people to be references? What is the point of doing this? Or is it to make sure we have our fair share of 25% of Scouting that is not on an outing?

 

Why are we not trusting of our Eagle Candidates? - "The candidates

should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence

between persons listed as references and the council service center or

advancement committee."

 

It seems to me that it should be required that at least one Eagle Scout, more would be better, on the EBOR would make sense. The BSA has handed out nearly two million Eagle medals you would think we could find a few willing to give back in this capacity.

 

How many times have I read "A scout can not fail a BOR." Well that is unless it is an EBOR - "..he is asked to return and told the reasons for his failure to qualify." Shouldn't he have a regular board of review, wouldn't his feedback be of value to the troop? Then some sort of official review of requirements or is this event just badly named?

 

Sorry to be so negative but the requirements in the Handbook seem to make a lot more sense to me but there seems to be a pile of hoops here that provide no real benefit.

 

With of this muck to consume there is no wonder the question of this thread was raised and why we need Eagle advisers.

 

Perhaps some of you will shed some light on this for me.

[OldGreyEagle]

First of all, First Class First Year does not mean we rush anybody through anything. The scout is taught and demonstrates the skill and then uses those skills, if you disagree, thats another thread but I had to say it.

 

If the scout is at a loss on how to do the Eagle Leadership Project on his own, perhaps he isnt ready to do the project yet, no disrespect, but maybe some experience is required

[Beavah]

If the scout is at a loss on how to do the Eagle Leadership Project on his own, perhaps he isnt ready to do the project yet, no disrespect, but maybe some experience is required

 

Yah, I think dat's the point, eh?

 

It's just that the experience which should be (and is!) required is First Class, Star, and Life .

 

If a Life Scout isn't ready to do a project on his own, then either we've made the project process really too onerous, or we haven't set up the requirements for the lower ranks to give the lad the experience and preparation he needs.

 

B

 

[John-in-KC]

"or we haven't set up the requirements for the lower ranks to give the lad the experience and preparation he needs. "

 

That's part of it right there. There's not a single do paperwork requirement beyond a MB app or something for a counselor inside a MB, until the Scout encounters his ELSP. Then... watch out, because like Stosh said, it's good to know 6-Sigma if you're going to get a project past the SM, Committee, benefitted agency, and the District Advancement bubbas.

 

[packsaddle]

I think Beavah is correct. It bothers me to have watched this creeping insinuation of stuff that these boys have to keep up with. In this unit, we do understand the age level of these boys and their level of maturity. A few (very few) can manage this process on their own (the paperwork and arcane extra requirements that the council and district add). All of them are capable of doing an Eagle project but that other stuff is just awful.

And I think Beavah is also correct that the projects tend to be compared to each other - with each one expected (by someone) to exceed the previous one - in scope or some other kind of investment. Thankfully, at least locally we've been able to keep this within realistic boundaries.

 

This weekend we're going to have an ECOH for several of our boys. They represent a big chunk of their cohort and they all finished up as deathbed eagles. I am fairly confident that if I and other adults had not taken considerable time to explain to them and guide them through the details, some of them would have given up. And I know for a fact that for some of them, their reluctance to even attempt this process was due to the reputation it has gotten from all the trouble previous boys have had. It could be a lot simpler and clearer. It ought to be FUN!

I should not have to perform the function of 'Eagle coordinator'. There should not be unwritten rules and requirements handed down from council and district, that we can only learn by mistake. Those unwritten requirements should not change overnight, without notice, at someone's whim. It is all so unnecessary. The problem is not with the boys.

[CA_Scouter]

Beav - woah - I'm honored to have been spun! ;-)

 

The skills we teach in the lower ranks are geared towards leadership, outdoor skills, first aid, etc. but now its time for the ELSP. Now they have to go BUILD something! WHAT in the lower rank skills prepares them for project management, construction, etc.?

 

To clarify, I'm not saying a Life Scout is 'not capable of' or 'at a loss of how' to do the project, its just that he needs guidance and direction from persons who DO have the experience to teach him.

 

To expect a teenager to do this all on his own without involvement from any of his leaders is a bit unrealistic, IMHO.

 

One poster mentions getting 'experience'. From where exactly? How does he get experience in project management? By managing a project, that's how. The ELSP IS his learning experience.

 

Now if he needs his hand held the entire way, then correct, he is not ready, but if its limited guidance and advice, then ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Twocubdad]

AMEN!! I absolutely agree, Beav.

 

The proposal process and the expections for projects have been pushed beyond what I believe are realistic for most Scouts. The things we teach boys -- running a meeting, scheduling an outing, developing an activity schedule for a weekend, doing the nuts and bolts organizational tasks necessary to put together an activity -- simply aren't enough for most current focus on producing construction/product oriented Eagle projects.

 

Our council has a strong bias for construction projects but has a rule (enforced only for Eagle projects) that Scouts may not use power tools. So how do you think all these picnic table get built? Surely not with hand saws and augers! Stick an adult in the middle of a project responsible for running the power tools and see where the all the decisions get made. When are Scouts taught all these construction skills? Drafting? Estimating? Proposal writing?

 

Particularly in our Council, the approval process has been rigged far beyond capability of most 15-17-year-olds to navigate. I got a chuckle from Stosh's post on another thread that the Eagle guys in his council appreciate seeing hand-written proposal full of misspellings as they know it's the boy's work. Not here! I had a long discussion with the council Advancement Chairman and one of his minions about the Eagle app process. They strongly believe that the biggest problem we face is that Scoutmasters don't have enough involvement in the Eagle proposals! I know that for our boys to get a project proposal approved, it will require approximately 10-15 hours of ADULT time.

 

My usual approach to a working with a Eagle candidate is to ask him to write up his proposal to the best of his ability, using the information in the Eagle Project Workbook as a guide. I have never, NEVER, see a proposal that had a chance of being approved. Why? If the expectations were anything like appropriate, at least a SOME Scouts should be able to write an acceptable proposal on their own.

 

Our council has a 40-plus item check list for proposals. Everything from naming the two-deep leaders who will be supervising the project, to where drinking water will obtained, to specifying that a first aid kit will be on hand. Okay, sure, those things are important (well, theoretically two-deep leader shouldn't necessarily be needed) but what kid is going to think of all those things? This has turned into a lawerly process where the Scouts have to hit all the buttons or are rejected. So most troops all have Eagle lawyers who shepherd the boys through the process.

 

Give me a kid building a simple walking trail any day!

[gwd-scouter]

I read about the onerous process other Council's put on Eagle candidates. Thankfully, our Council's process is not so difficult. The only thing that gets sent to Council is the Eagle application. They do ask that it be sent before the EBOR so that everything can be checked. Simple enough to fax it up there, the registrar checks the dates, and sends a message back that everything is OK. EBOR is held. Application is signed and then taken or mailed to Council to sign and then off to National.

 

I've sat on EBOR's in our district and the reference letters are never asked for. Nope, council doesn't want them either. At least, that's the way it has been - haven't seen the new application yet.

 

Frankly, I don't know if the references listed on the application are ever called. Guess I'll find out soon enough - Patrick is working on his project starting today and is in the process of finishing personal fitness merit badge. If all goes well, by the first of June he will be completing is application.

 

Edit to add: packsaddle and I are in the same council. Pack, if your experience with the Eagle process is different than what I've described, I'd be interested in reading about it. Maybe it's on the District end that it's different?(This message has been edited by gwd-scouter)

[Scouter&mom]

I asked my son, who just last night completed his EBOR, this question as we were on the way to his Board. He told me that he felt like he was prepared for the leadership that the actual project required and somewhat prepared for the estimating, purchasing and constructing that his project required (including asking for help from people with more construction experience), but that he was in no way prepared for the politics and paperwork burden required to get his project through and completed. Troop politics effected his ability to fund raise for his project. Getting his book written so that it would get approved, took several re-writes and meetings with SM (who has seen other books get rejected because the project information was not detailed enough). The district advancement chairman kept his project book for over 6 weeks, at least three times saying "I am going to approve, but I want to add some recommendations, and I will get it to Scout by Monday." Finally had to get someone from council to check and see if son could go ahead and do project, since time to do project was at hand and 18th birthday was fast approaching. My son then had to pick up book from advancement chair's office to complete when project was done. Scouts expect the adults to behave like adults and do what they say, so they are not always prepared for adults to make this more difficult rather than help the Scout along the way. I cannot imagine our younger Life or Star Scouts dealing with the politics and onerous paperwork requirements, or even my son having dealt with it six months after he earned Life at 14.

[packsaddle]

Yeah, Gwd, that's possible, the district might be laying it off on the council. At my end it doesn't make much difference. The project work book has a page where four signatures are required, one of those is the district guy.

1. One previous district guy would meet with the boy individually (G2SS?) and go over the project. He was a hard-nosed type who had a certain idea about what could or would qualify and he'd send them back with advice on what needed to be added or changed to meet his approval. If the boy got past him, then and only then, the others in the process would be allowed to sign the workbook. If any of those others signed before the district guy, he'd send the boy back to get a clean workbook and his project would be rejected.

2. Then, that guy had some kind of fight with his superiors and he left. The new guy who showed up out of the blue, was an 'anything goes' type and, well, for a while 'anything' went. It was left to the troops to make the decisions and that was fine with me. But all of a sudden he didn't want the boys to worry about checking with him before the end of the project. We never had a problem with him and for a while, the only problems we had was with the council's errors in recordkeeping. He was suddenly replaced (I think he had a job move or something).

3. Then, the new, new guy came along. Now, he requires the boy to meet with him and go over the project. Then and only then (and it HAS to be in this order) the boy must get the signatures of the school, etc. person who will benefit from the project, and then the scoutmaster and committee chair, and THEN, after all those other people have approved, the district guy is willing to make his decision. One trip out to the district guy, a trip to the benficiary, then the troop people, and then back out to the district guy - this is the best that can happen if everything is done right. And THEN he can actually start the project.

None of these changes were announced. We discovered them when the boys were sent back saying they didn't do it right and had to start over. In a couple of cases the boy thought he had been rejected from Eagle or thought he had to pick a new project. Communication has been a problem.

Don't get me wrong, all these guys are good guys. But they or the district or the council seem to have certain ideas about how things are to be done and the boys have no way to know this stuff. The forms have bean-counting blank spaces and few instructions on the order that the beans must be counted.

Now, as for the Eagle application itself, for a while we just had to make sure the council had the correct records. A phone call was all that was necessary because I had literally spent years going back and forth to SHOW them the advancement forms that we had sent to them with the CORRECT dates and other details. Dates were wrong. Awards were wrong. Boys were suddenly one or two years younger than reality. Boys disappeared and emerged in other units. Boys remained on the rolls long after they left scouting (but we now know what THAT was all about). But after all that effort they learned that this unit, at least, had better records than THEY did so a phone call was sufficient. Now, suddenly we are told that the boy or some adult must drive an hour to the council office and meet with the council records person to check all their dates and get that signature BEFORE they can get a single other signature on the Eagle application. If the dates have problems the boy must correct them and go back again with the blue stubs or some similar record to verify the dates. That's the second two hours on the road. Once that signature is in place, the boy is allowed to complete the EBOR. If the EBOR convenes and that signature isn't already in place, a NEW application has to be filled out with signatures in the proper order. I'm not making this stuff up, we've had the experience. According to the district guy, this particular rule is coming from the council. We have discovered each of these details by having forms rejected because we didn't get the signatures in the proper order.

So far, no boy has been rejected because of any of this, but if the boys had had to do it on their own, some of them would have quit, or at least that's what they told me.

There is a need for bean counters in the world. But there's also a need for the people who actually do the work. The bean counters don't seem to realize that they are supposed to facilitate the work. The bean counters seem to think that THEY are the customers. They're not. I wish bean counters would just step aside and stop hindering things, and count their beans leaving the rest of us in peace.(This message has been edited by packsaddle)