What happens when there are bad "Letters of reference"?

[PeteM]

Since "Letters of reference" are not required, what happens when an EBOR gets 4 bad "Letters of reference", that do not recommend the scout for Eagle, that they do not see this scout being a good scout, much less that an Eagle scout, and then fails the scout for that reason?

[Nike]

Good question. How can a Scout remediate universal bad recommendations? Sounds appealable to me.

[Hal_Crawford]

Four bad letters of reference! Did this really happen or is this a hypothetical situation? It is hard to imagine a scout listing references that are not going to give a good recommendation. Was there no one at his school who saw any qualities in this lad? Was he trashed by his clergyman?

 

It would seem that the EBOR can and probably should consider bad references especially when there seems to be such a consensus of inadequacy. They should not however let the letters outweigh their own perceptions. I am not sure what the EBOR should do if they are deferring advancement. Tell him to come back in a month with better references? Can they even tell the scout that there decision was based in part on bad references?

 

Again, this is a really hard scenario to imagine.

 

 

 

[gcnphkr]

Letters of reference are an optional method (see the Advancement Guide p.31). The references are required in any case. If the scout had not provided the letters the references would have been contacted anyway.

 

That four out of five (or six) references say that the scout should not be made an Eagle speaks volumes, chances are these contacts will be getting phone calls from the chair of the BOR to get more details which will be discussed at the BOR. Depending on the scout's response, he may be denied the rank and he will likely appeal. The letters will be a part of the appeal process all the way up the line.

 

One has to ask, why would a scout ask 4 people for references that end up giving poor references? Most people I know would say to the scout, "I can do it, but I will not be able to recommend you so you might want to ask someone else". Any adult that did not do that does not have the character that I would like to see in a reference.

 

[Beavah]

Yah, this happens sometimes. Sometimes a unit or district will tip off a SM on the letters and let the SM deal with it as a deferral and mentoring opportunity.

 

If it goes to a BOR I've never seen a BOR approve the rank under that circumstance, eh? We expect a lad to demonstrate livin' by the Oath and Law in his life, eh? His life in the troop is one part of that (SM's recommendation). His life at school, and church, and home, and work, and all that is also part of it.

 

Givin' a boy our highest award if a number of da other people in his life don't think he deserves it neither serves the boy nor the community well.

 

Beavah

 

[packsaddle]

I'm trying to understand the circumstances in which a boy would not already have some idea that he would get negative letters. We've never had something like this, thank goodness.

[Eamonn]

"Yah, this happens sometimes." ??

Sorry Beav, I've been around for a while and it has never happened in the District I serve.

This might be due to the fact that the letters do not go to anyone on the BOR, they are requested by the Scout and sent to the Scout who brings them with him when he attends the BOR. (Most times they are addressed to Whom it may concern.)

I'm sure if I were the Scout and received a bad letter, that I wouldn't bring it with me and would remove that name from the form.

We have had people who when they know that a Lad is going for an ESBOR who will contact the board and let it be known that they feel he isn't worthy of the Eagle Scout rank.

This makes life hard for the board as they are faced with a Lad who has been approved by his SM and has met all the requirements (Other than the ESBOR) But the board has this information saying he is not up to snuff.

All to often the person contacting the board is going back into ancient history and is recalling past sins. Or this person has some kind of ax to grind with the Scout and maybe his family.

A few years back a Lad came up for a BOR and his Ex-Scoutmaster let it be known that he didn't think the Lad was worthy of Eagle Scout rank.

It turned out that the Lad's mother had been a member of the Troops committee. She and the SM had crossed swords resulting in the Lad transferring to another Troop.

The mother was fairly well known for being a real right pain, who seemed to think that her kid could do no wrong, she had served on the school board and caused a bit of a stir there and was a regular letter writer in the local newspaper.

But as far as I could see other than having the misfortune of having this person for a mother, the Lad had done nothing to disqualify him from becoming an Eagle Scout.

To be very honest when a Scout does bring the letters to a board that I'm on, I do read them but don't put much store into them. They are all from people that were hand-picked by the Scout (Or his family.). They all say much the same thing, maybe some are more glowing than others?

Eamonn.

[John-in-KC]

Having been a CC when young men were coming up for Eagle...

 

IF I got a packet with four bad letters of reference, I'd immediately adjourn and defer subject to recall the EBOR without even interviewing the boy. It's time to do some serious question asking. That's all the more true if the reference do not square with what I know of the Scout.

 

Next, I'd ask the SM to convene a SM conference with the Scout: "Is there anything we should know about which would cause any of your references to be negative about you?"

 

I'm not a policeman, but if my picture of the Scout is that distorted from his references, I have to get some ground truth.

 

Only after I was convinced of the picture I'd seen would I reconvene the EBOR. At that point, there'd be an executive session, to make sure we were on the same sheet of music: This is probably an EBOR where the Scout will not advance.

 

And then it begins.

 

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Now, if the references CONFIRM what I know of the Scout (he's not a good actor), I may also adjourn the EBOR subject to reconvening, but after I do...

 

- I call the DAC forthwith, and let him know there's an ugly one coming his way. I want him in my court for any appeals.

 

- Ditto my DE, COR, and UC/DC.

 

- I ask the SM to sit down with the Scout and ask the same question as above: I leverage the SM to work the "no surprise" angle "You understand you may not be elevated to Eagle, don't you?"

 

WHEN we reconvene the EBOR, there will be an extensive executive session. Then bring in the Scout, and let him have his say. Will he be elevated? Probably not, but I'll have done my share of the lifting.

[Hal_Crawford]

In our council the letters are sent to the troop and given to the EBOR. We use unit EBORs with a guest from the District Advancement Committee. My understanding is that the scout is not supposed to see the letters.

 

When I was CC I don't remember prescreening them before the EBOR. I think we opened them there. I have never seen an Eagle letter of reference that didn't glow, some seem to suggest that the scout walks on water and would surely cure cancer or world hunger. I can imagine a scout getting one bad reference but four seems strange.

 

If this did actually happen I can see a cautionary tale. Never, ever, put someone down as a reference without asking them first. It is not just good manners, it is self preservation. If someone comes to me for a reference and I cannot give them a good one I tell them. I know that not everyone will do that but it is hard to imagine that four people would write bad references without giving the scout a clue.

 

Pete, did this really happen? If so, tell us a little more about the circumstances.

[Buffalo Skipper]

Like Hal, we conduct our EBORs at with one district representative. Likewise, letters are received by the troop and remain unopened until the EBOR, and are destroyed afterward. I do not believe that the candidate ever sees them.

 

A scout should "pre-screen" his candidates, but calling, advising them of the upcoming request, and asking if they would provide for him a favorable reference. Though there may occasionally be a less than favorable reference which slips through, I cannot conceive of a circumstance in which a viable candidate received 4 unfavorable letters. Kind of like the simultaneous failure of a triple redundancy hydraulic system on an airliner. This kind of thing just should not happen.

[packsaddle]

We never read letters. We never see letters. We never get letters. We merely make sure the application is completed properly. No more, no less.

If the letters are not required, then why is anyone reading them in the first place?(This message has been edited by packsaddle)

[Eamonn]

Maybe I should add that in our Council ESBOR's are done by the District, with a Committee Member from the Scout's troop in attendance.

I know that OJ was very selective when it came to asking for these references.

For some reason he didn't like our Parish Priest, so he asked the Priest who served as Assistant Lodge Adviser for a letter.

They knew each other well.

As chance would have it when the time came for the Priests to move, this Priest became our new Parish Priest!

He also asked for a letter from his favorite teacher.

As at one time he had been suspended from school, for taking a small pocket knife to school. (He'd won the knife at an OA pie eating contest and forgot to take it out of his jacket!)

 

Eamonn.

[Beavah]

Sorry Beav, I've been around for a while and it has never happened in the District I serve.

This might be due to the fact that the letters do not go to anyone on the BOR, they are requested by the Scout and sent to the Scout who brings them with him when he attends the BOR.

 

Yah, another pirate district out there, Aaarrgghh! Runnin' rum under da noses of those guys who write da national guidelines. Yo ho, yo ho and all that, eh? Of course the lads aren't supposed to see (and screen) their confidential recommendations, eh?

 

Poor rec letters do happen occasionally if the lads can't pre-screen 'em. Most commonly from the folks where the boy doesn't have a choice who to give it to, like his only employer. And sometimes, a lad who has been a real turd can have a hard time findin' anyone to write a good rec, eh? The reference may try to beg off, but the boy insists. Yah, and sometimes the boy doesn't care and is only goin' through things because mom or dad are pushin'.

 

For that reason, I really do advise folks never to wait until the EBOR to open and read da letters. Every now and then yeh can get a real shock and wish yeh had time to think about it and set things up differently, or at least make some phonecalls as John-in-KC suggests. That's particularly true of EBORs done by the district, but it also applies to unit EBORs. Had ones where the employer indicated the boy was being terminated because of "excessive missing inventory", the school wrote a "faint praise" letter intimating serious behavioral issues, da church said the lad had been kicked out of their teen youth group, etc. Had a peer reference once say that while he hung out with the Eagle candidate sometimes, he really felt the boy was a bully and smoked way too much marijuana to be qualified for Eagle. Yeh really don't want to be readin' those for the first time in da semi-public settin' of an Eagle BOR.

 

Beavah

(This message has been edited by Beavah)

[John-in-KC]

PS,

 

Read the current ACP&P. Local Councils have the discretion to require letters of reference as a means of checking references, and giving the info to EBORs.

 

In our Council, we use unit EBOR with District Guest. Scout is required to hand out shells to his references. They are mailed to the CC.

[ScoutNut]

There should be no "pre-screening" of the Eagle references by anyone.

 

Per BSA Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures -

 

"The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between people listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee."

 

and -

 

"Reference checks that are forwarded with the application are confidential, and their contents are not to be disclosed to any person who is not a member of the board of review."