Eagle candidates and leadership

[CA_Scouter]

In my troop now we have 6 Life scouts, several of which have most if not all of their rank requirements done and want to start on their Eagle project. I put out a note to my asm's this week indicating that I would not want any of them to start on their eagle project without first demonstrating appropriate leadership skills and initiative.

 

For example, I have one scout who just recently was able to do the opening flag ceremony without asking for help. This scout has earned his merit badges rather quickly ( he just turned 14 ) , has done a good job in his POR ( scribe, librarian ), but had a very difficult time being the ASPL this last 6 months. Very timid, has to be told what to do and how to do it, etc... In his defense, he stepped into the position when our previous ASPL moved out of the area, so he really didn't have a lot of training to fall back on.

 

I'm getting pushback on one of my ASM's ( his father ) who seems to feel that the Eagle project is where we teach leadership as part of the process. I am of the opinion that if a scout can barely lead a flag ceremony, he certainly cannot lead an Eagle project.

 

Now I dont' want this thread to get into a discussion of the lack of training for the kid... that's OBVIOUS. We as the adults leaders have already identified this as an issue in which we have not done a good job and this is one of our goals to improve upon this year....

 

What I do want are your opinions on the purpose of the Eagle project. Am I out of line to ask for competent leadership BEFORE starting the project? ( just competent, not outstanding )

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

Bottom line up front: You are adding to the requirements

 

There is an approved list of PORs in the current Boy Scout Requirements. If one of your young men has completed his required tenure in a valid position, he's done. You cannot make him "you've been OATR, now go be SPL before I will sign off on you to do your ELSP." That's about the world's best way I know of for you to have a heart to heart with your COR, resulting in you surrendering your SM patch.

 

If, in your opinion, he really needs leadership and assertiveness training, don't send him to Scout Camp this year... send him to Brownsea/JLT/NYLT/(whatever they call it this month). The week will do him good. HOW DO YOU GET HIM THERE? You have a quiet, offline talk with his parents, then you have a SM conference with the young man focusing on leadership skills development.

 

At the same time, an ELSP is often the first time young men have to put the whole shooting match togeether... project brainstorming, design, coordination, approval, procurment, execution, and close-out. Many young men will learn more in the field, doing this project, than they would in a classroom (even a Brownsea classroom), doing classwork.

 

Lots to chew on here, I wish you well.

 

YiS.

[CA_Scouter]

Clarification... I didn't mean to imply I would require him to hold another position, and I certainly don't want to add to the requirements. My intent is to be sure he can actually do the project without an adult walking him through every step and making every decision for him... this is my concern with this scout...

 

 

.. and what is OATR?

 

[FScouter]

The requirement is to use leadership skills to carry out a service project. If the Scout has no leadership skills, it will be difficult to carry out the Eagle service project.

 

The purpose of the Eagle project most assuredly is not to develop the leadership skills if none exist. The skills should be first developed in the positions of responsibility the Scout has held through the first 5 ranks.

 

I think a Scoutmaster would be remiss if he pushed a Scout along into an Eagle project knowing his lack of leadership skills would likely result in failure to demonstrate leadership in completing the project.

[Its Me]

 

I agree with you, that a scout who can't lead a flag ceremony will have a hard time leading an eagle project.

 

He has moved too fast. If you aren't careful his father and noy him will lead his Eagle project.

 

 

[Beavah]

You know the lad and where he's at.

 

You know your troop's and districts expectations for a leadership project.

 

You're never out of line when yeh are trying your best to mentor a kid and help him grow.

 

Success at a POR, and da recognition he'll get from his peers for that, and the confidence it will build in him, is a far better gift then rushin' the lad to Eagle on his dad's schedule.

 

Beavah

 

[John-in-KC]

More understood now.

 

If the kid needs leadership development, take advantage of the tools Scouting gives you... send him to Brownsea!!!

 

At the same time, I would, as SM and ASMs, revisit what I thought "right looked like" in a succesful tenure of a POR. If you're a "Patch + 4 (6) months" unit, you may need to revisit standards, expectations, and training development for your PORs across the board.

 

As far as Dad goes: Too bad, so sad. If Dad wants him in an Eagle Mill, let Dad transfer him to same.

 

Edited to add: OATR: Order of the Arrow Troop Representative (an Eagle authorized POR).(This message has been edited by John-in-KC)

[FScouter]

The best time for a boy to learn basic leadership skills is long before he approaches his Eagle leadership service project. Perhaps he is weak in leadership skills. Jack Welch is a great leader but hed probably flop on a flag ceremony if he doesnt know how to do one.

 

The father is right in the sense that increasing a boys leadership skills can continue through the project; acting in a leadership role will strengthen leadership skills. Its not correct though to say that leadership training starts with the Eagle project.

 

The SM should be concerned about ensuring a Scout facing a project will be successful. More mentoring will be needed. More discussion needed with the dad about taking over the decision making. But once the boy decides to work on that rank requirement, the role of the SM is help him through it, not throttle him back.

[CalicoPenn]

Have the lads completed their POR's? If so, how do you propose to measure their readiness for leading an Eagle Project if they are no longer required to hold a leadership position in which you can evaluate that? Technically, once a lad has completed the 6 month POR requirement for Eagle, he never has to serve another day in a POR if he chooses not to. We all hope that a Scout will be willing to continue to serve, and for the most part this happens, but if he chooses not to, he can't be penalized for it once he's completed the initial POR requirement.

 

I think you have the best interests of the lads at heart, but I think you're doing this backwards - instead of using the POR's to evaluate the lads ability to lead, you should be using the PORs to prepare the lads to lead. Becoming ASPL doesn't automatically make one an instant leader - you should be prepared to tell them what needs to be done, what they need to do, and show them how to do it - that's how they learn.

 

The Eagle project isn't a test of a lads ability to lead - it's a movement of leadership from Scouts to the Community. Keep in mind that there are also all kinds of leadership styles as well. So I ask - what is "appropriate" leadership skills and initiative? How will that be measured? What are appropriate leadership skills for a Librarian, a Scribe, a Quartermaster, a Chaplain's Aide, a Patrol Leader, a Senior Patrol Leader - surely, they don't all require the exact same skills?

 

One more point - there really is nothing in the Eagle process that allows an SM, ASM, CC, AC, or any one else to hold a lad back because he "just isn't ready" to do an Eagle Project. The BSA assumes that once a lad has earned the Life rank, they are ready to do an Eagle project. Nothing in the rank requirements for Eagle states that the lad has to earn all of the required merit badges, and must have completed his POR before he starts work on the Eagle project. A lad can, if HE so chooses, start working on the Eagle project the day he is awarded the Life rank - and complete it first, before earning the rest of the merit badges, or serving in a POR. In addition, there is nothing in the requirements that state a Scout must show competant leadership BEFORE he starts his Eagle project. He only needs to show competant leadership and initiative DURING his Eagle project.

 

As I've stated, I believe you have the best interests of the Scouts at heart - but I also think you're (just barely) stepping over that line in requiring competant leadership skills before starting an Eagle project. Your ASM is right to push back (though for the wrong reasons in my opinion - the Eagle Project is the time to put to work the leadership skills one has learned - learning new leadership skills during the project is secondary).

 

Calico

[Beavah]

One more point - there really is nothing in the Eagle process that allows an SM, ASM, CC, AC, or any one else to hold a lad back because he "just isn't ready" to do an Eagle Project. The BSA assumes that once a lad has earned the Life rank, they are ready to do an Eagle project.

 

Yah, da BSA is a big organization, eh? Filled with all kinds of different people, none of whom know the lad in question. I reckon it's a bit overbroad to say that the BSA assumes anything, eh?

 

In terms of process, though, the project requires the approval of the SM, the Troop Committee, and the district advancement folks before a lad can begin, eh? Any of 'em can put the brakes on or steer the lad toward more mentoring, eh? And he absolutely cannot start working a project without approval just because he's a Life Scout.

 

Advancement is a method. It serves the program and the lad, not vice versa. There's all kinds of latitude and discretion built in to allow it to do that, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[CalicoPenn]

The trigger for starting work towards Eagle is being awarded the Life rank. Nothing else. Not Life + 2 months for this boy and Life + 6 months for that boy. ANY boy can start working on their Eagle, on ANY parts of the Eagle rank, the day they are awarded their Life rank. It has nothing to do with any individual lad - it's all rank driven. That 13 year old that just earned his Life rank can start working on putting together his project right away - whether anyone else think's he's ready or not. If you don't think he's ready to start working on the Eagle? Then the time to hold him up is before awarding the Life rank - once Life is awarded, it's too late. That's the program assumption - actually, more than an assumption - that's the program.

 

And while it's quite correct that the lad must get approvals before they work on the project, they don't need approval to start planning and develping a project to be approved. They can start that on day one after being awarded the Life rank. In addition, objections to the project are to be project specific, such as "define your leadership objectives better" or "give a better description of how the project benefits the XYZ Nature Center" An objection can't be unrelated to the project such as "you need to earn this merit badge before you start working on it" or "you need to serve 6 months in a POR before you start working on an Eagle project". Anyone who uses such unrelated objections isn't delivering the program.

 

Calico

[Beavah]

Nah, Calico, I think you're confusin' some procedural aspects of the Advancement Method with "the Program."

 

The Program includes a whole range of features. Respect for the CO's goals, Youth Leadership, Adult Association, Values of the Oath and Law and all that, eh? Those things work together and in concert. Advancement Method doesn't trump all.

 

That's not to say a particular lad should be unfairly held back. Or even that we shouldn't err in a lad's favor. As I've written before, I agree with you that Star and Life ranks are the proper places to hold a lad on responsibility and leadership. Often not fair springing such things on him at Eagle. CA_Scouter should also take a look at the troop's expectations for those ranks, for sure, or even go back to how they run T21 to make sure they're settin' the expectations they want.

 

Yah, but ultimately, erring in a lad's favor means in favor of his learning and character and growth not necessarily in favor of givin' him a medal. With the proper relationship and coachin', a good adult leader can steer a boy away from parental pressure to advance quickly in favor of learning and success by advancing well, at his own pace.

 

Isn't any one right way. And I reckon someone saying to a lad "hey, yeh don't have the leadership skills/safety skills/judgment/background yet to succeed at this project" is part of why there's an approval process.

 

Your mileage and approach may vary.

 

Beavah

 

[evmori]

Calico is right on the money! Once a Scout earns Life, he can start planning his Eagle Project. If the Scout isn't ready it's a little late!

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10

[Beavah]

Yah, sure, Ed. There's nothin' that the SM can do to stop a lad inquiring about or startin' plans for a project. SM might not even know about it. Heck, the lad could have been workin' on a project plan since he was a Tenderfoot and we'd never know.

 

To my mind, CA_Scouter's question is "what do I do with a boy who is asking about a project idea or comes to me or another unit scouter with preliminary plans?"

 

I figure there are two options.

 

1) Push him through the project approval process, knowin' that leadership is a real problem. Then be faced with the prospect of rejecting the project at his final review because he didn't show leadership,

 

or

 

2) Gently coaching him up front that he needs more work before he's ready to tackle the project, and help him develop his skills so that success is very likely when he eventually tackles the project. Or usin' the requirement for approval if his dad "pushes."

 

I'm in favor of #2 myself. I think it's kinda mean to launch a kid on a task if you think failure is a real possibility. Sorta abdicating our responsibility as adult friends and associates, eh?

 

Beavah

 

[evmori]

I agree Beav! # 2 is the way to go.

 

When I was a SM & Scouts would come to me & ask about ideas for Eagle projects, I was happy to give them ideas and tell them if they want me to help them out, I will, but it's your project & you must take the lead. I will be there to assist & give guidance if necessary but I won't plan or lead your project.

 

Ed Mori

1 Peter 4:10