Need clarification on tenderfoot rqt 11 - poisonous plants

[fl_mom_of_2]

Tenderfoot Requirment 11. Identify local poisonous plants and tell how to treat for exposure: Our SM wants the boys to find the poisonous plants in the woods during our next campout before he will sign off on this. Is this adding to the requirements? Is it enough for the scout to just describe the plants? I can see all our scouts spending hours in the woods looking for poison ivy, sumac, and oak not finding them and not getting signed off.

 

Our SM told this to the boys after he gave a long presentation on what all the plants were. He brought them all in for the boys to see. I know this info should've been presented by our SPL but he hardly comes to any of our meetings. This is also another problem we are having. The SM teaches alot of things to the boys instead of the older boys teaching the younger scouts.

 

 

 

 

 

[Venividi]

fl_mom_of_2,

 

I don't believe that identifying poisonous plants in the field is adding to the requirements. If one thinks about the purpose behind including this as a rank requirement, i.e., its usefulness to the scout, it would be so that scouts can recognize these plants in the field where they will encounter them, and learn to a)avoid them, and b) what to do should they touch them. This is much more useful than merely being able to describe it.

 

I am assuming, of course, that you are in a local where these plants exist.

venividi

[Venividi]

On your second item: I would prefer to see an youth instructor be teaching plant identification, if possible. I would definately discourage have the SPL be teaching these skills; he has other responsibilities, and should be delegating instruction to others.

 

venividi

[John-in-KC]

Welcome to the Forums, Florida Mom!

 

I would hope your SM has a location picked out which has the area poisonous plants as part of the flora. It really is best for the young men to see them in the wild.

 

I was an ROTC senior, already branched Field Artillery. I knew what poison oak looked like. I was working with a HS JROTC Ranger class on basics of patrolling. We went to Vandenberg AFB for a night patrol training opportunity; the JROTC cadets chose the route based on the mission. I KNEW, having been at Vandenberg before, that their route took us right through a poison oak thicket. Nothing I could do but call my doc when I got home for meds.

 

My Professor of Military Science told me that particular group of JROTC students didn't go back for another year. Oh, well, it was the 70s.

 

Better they learn what it looks like day and night in the wild.

 

As to the SM teaching it, I'm squeamish about that, but all you can do is keep watching how the kids learn.

 

May he have a great Scouting trail.

[packsaddle]

I agree, I wouldn't exactly call that adding to the requirements. I add, however, that we should not forget that 'poisonous' includes things that make us sick or dead if we eat them as well. I would include the poisonous mushrooms, mistletoe, members of the Euphorbiaceae, etc. There are a huge number of poisonous plants out there and few of them cause a rash on contact. IMHO.

[PoolDoc]

Poisonous plant ID is a pretty valuable skill, assuming that your troop is actually planning to do some camping. Poison ivy in particular is found throughout the USA and certainly throughout Florida.

 

My son and I are new to scouting, so he when went on his first Scout camping trip this past April. I was dismayed to discover (after the fact!) that not only had the Patrol Leader pitched their tent with the doorway opening squarely onto a patch of poison ivy, but that the SM -- who inspected the location -- didn't note a problem. Several of the boys had mild (fortunately!) reactions the following week.

 

This will NOT happen again! My son had a science project due in May, which I steered toward an study of local plants that contained contact poisons, especially poison ivy, oak and sumac. He can now recognize poison ivy at 50 paces! ;-) (As a bonus, he got 2nd prize for his exhibit . . . and much interest from parents trying to pass his "Can you ID poison ivy?" test booklet.)

 

Many people do not realize that babies are usually NOT sensitive to urushiol, the toxin in PI, PO, and PS, and that most people require multiple exposures to be sensitized. This delayed sensitization misleads many into believing that they are immune, and don't have to worry about it. This can be a terrific problem, since it's not uncommon for people to exhibit their first reaction after a major exposure . . . and for that reaction to be fairly horrendous. There are some pretty gruesome pictures online showing typical moderate to severe reactions to urushiol exposure. Such reactions can even require hospitalization!

 

Needless to say, you do NOT want your son, or his friends, to come home from a trip, only to have a miserable reaction show up on Monday or Tuesday.

 

Even the requirement to recognize the plants, not from books or online pictures, but from actual plants in the field is very appropriate. Poison ivy and poison oak are particularly known for their morphological instability, making them pretty difficult to reliably identify without field experience. Ironically, my son and I challenged a botanist who'd posted some poison ivy pictures online because we were sure that some pictures he had of Floridian poison ivy were misidentified. He readily agreed that those plants had a atypical look but assured us that he was certain of his identification. So, your son not only needs to know what poison ivy looks like typically, he needs to be able to identify what poison ivy looks like in YOUR area.

 

 

 

PS: A tip for SM's and other instructors: warn scouts, that if they suspect that they may have handled poison ivy, to ALWAYS wash their hands VERY CAREFULLY with soap and water before urinating. If this is impossible, they MUST 'handle themselves' using a tissue, glove, leave, whatever in order to avoid direct hand-to-organ contact. I've seen medical pictures of guys who failed to do so. Trust me, those pictures make any guy who sees them groan and grab himself! It would be better to pee in your pants, than suffer what those guys did.

 

[fl_mom_of_2]

thanks everyone for the clarification. I'm new to the forum and actually this was my second post! I appreciate all the feedback. I've learned quite a bit. Thanks again.

[scottteng]

One very common poisonous plant here in Florida is oleander. I knew a chef at a restaurant who had to call the poison control center to find out if the sea grape leaves that he had decorated the plate with were poisonous after a customer ate them. Field ID's are great but not to my mind required it is enough that the boys can describe the plant. Some people do not react to poison ivy my grandfather used to pull it up with bare hands all the time and never had a reaction. The other one to watch out for is anything that oozes that white sap when cut or broken it can be quite a skin irritant.

[Stosh]

I am 58 years old. I have been camping regularly since the age of 4 years. I have never had a poison ivy reaction until just recently when I walked through a field where someone had just mowed poison ivy. Try that on for ID purposes! Can you recognize poison ivy after it has been mowed?

 

Next really scrub out your clothing by hand, then wash, and then when you put it back on thinking it was safe, you react again to your socks!

 

There is no such thing as too much instruction when it comes to this requirement. My kudos to the SM who takes the boys out and makes them find the stuff. By the way, have you ever seen poison ivy grow 30' into the air? This stuff is wicked and will mess you up for 2 weeks if not hospitalization. Then there's the boys that burn poison ivy and others breathe the smoke.

 

Like the swimming test, this requirement should be taught and re-taught every year.

 

Stosh

[Gonzo1]

It's not adding to the requirement, it's actually doing the requirement. It says "identify" not "describe".

 

 

 

[kenk]

A nasty, but often overlooked plant common to the U.S. midwest is the Wild Parsnip. This is a non-native plant that started showing up over 100 years ago.

 

This plant tends to grow in abandoned fields (as opposed to forests). It can grow well up to 4-6 feet tall, has yellow umbrella-shaped flower clusters - much like a wild carrot but bigger.

 

The thing about this plant is that skin contact puts a solar accelerant chemical on the skin. This chemical is energized by UV light and breaks down skin tissue. If the "victim" stays in the sun the skin burns as if it had been in the sun for many hours. The skin will redden after 24-48 hours and usually will eventually blister. Even as the blisters heal, the skin takes on a brownish cast that can last for a year or more.

 

If you know you've brushed against Wild Parsnip the best thing is to get out of UV rays as soon as possible - preferably go indoors - not just in shade - for 24 hours, as its effects seem to diminish over time. Attempting to wash off the chemicals doesn't seem to be too successful since it appears to absorb into the skin rather quickly.

[AK-Eagle]

I agree the yearly need to train and remind on poisonous plants especially the make you dead or make you miserable plants

 

One example of the deadly found here and the lower 48; False Hellebore, aka Green False Hellebore, aka False Hellborne, aka Indian Poke, aka Bear Corn, aka Corn Lily, Etc.

 

Wild Parsnip has a cousin in name here in Alaska, Cow Parsnip, aka Indian Celery, aka Poochski, yep its spelled that way.

 

I looked up wild parsnip and cow parsnip and from the photos they appeared to be different plants but they have very similar effects on skin, I have experience in the Alaskan variety's that have resulted in pus filled blisters, deep wounds that healed slowly local first aid lore says to get the effected area out of direct sun, rinsed well with COLD water, then allow to dry.

 

Thus ends my contribution to poisonous plant ID thread

 

AK-Eagle

aka Phillip Martin

Scoutmaster Troop 700

Juneau AK

[packsaddle]

I'm glad someone mentioned the wild parsnip. It is a member of the Apiaceae (carrot family) and there are several species that are quite poisonous. The most famous is "poison hemlock" (NOT the tree!) which was the source of the poison that Socrates drank, causing his death. The following link is useful:

http://cal.vet.upenn.edu/poison/plants/pppoiso.htm

and the web site is really good for a large number of other poisonous plants.

In the South we have a common flowering plant, "Yellow Jessamine", genus Gelsimium, which is extremely poisonous. And don't forget foxglove (genus Digitalis, same as the heart drug derived from the plant), mountain laurel, Rhododendron, the list goes on and on.

This is why I encourage information that goes way beyond the poison ivy group of plants that mostly just make us itch.

 

The rule of thumb that I tell the boys is, "If you don't KNOW it is safe to eat, DON'T EAT IT!"

 

Bon Apptit!

[Trevorum]

So, pack, we can include Nicotiana sp. as a poisonous plant??

[ASM59]

Hello,

 

Lots of good responses in this thread. I agree; get the boys in the field to identify the plants. Hopefully someone who really knows the plants will be with the boys so they will not get into it by mistake.

 

Like already mentioned; I know that here in Illinois, poison ivy leafs can vary quite a bit. I don't know if it like that everywhere, but it is very true in this area. Because of that we teach the boys how to identify the plant by it's most common leaf shape(s), but also teach them to stay away from anything with 3 leafs and only touch it if you are 100% sure it's not poison ivy. If you do touch it and you're not sure, wash (with soap) as soon as you can.

 

Teaching and reteaching this is very common. If you are with me on a hike and I see poison ivy, you can bet I'll be pointing it out to everyone. If I see it again with a different leaf shape, you can count on my pointing out the the new plant and point out the variation.

 

ASM59