desertrat77

Great discussion!

Thanks to the WB proponents for the interesting counterpoints.

Wondering: how much activity (hiking, cooking, pioneering and the like) is there in WB today? What would be the ratio today of classroom v. outdoor activity?

I ask because one of my beefs about WB is it seems to mostly stationary...classroom, briefings, discussions.

As a scout in the '70s, I first wore the flight/overseas cap...cheap and easy to keep track of. Just fold it over/under your belt and there it is. Or actually wear it on your head.

Then, due to family moves, I was in two different troops that chose the beret.

Only two ways to wear that thing: all tricked out military style, like a mercenary, or like a goofy poet.

Very little ground in between.

The second troop was in Alaska, and because we wore watch caps more often than not, we didn't emphasize beret wearing too much during the warmer months.

As a scouter, I'll wear a ball cap from a local camp to keep the sun off. Otherwise, I'm hat free.

LagosScouter,

Greetings and thank you for your service!

I've never signed up for WB, nor intend to.

Nothing personal, but WB is not a program I'm interested in.

First, it strikes me as a club more than anything else. I can see where the fellowship would be very beneficial. But why do we need WB to encourage closer bonds? One would hope that roundtables and such would be the ideal stage for working closer together, but that's another discussion....

Second, it's another series of hoops to jump thru. Frankly, after 25 years in the military, I've been through enough training and education to make me look very carefully at what I invest my time in off duty. I'm not saying I've learned it all; just commenting on the time and energy needed to complete WB.

I have no problem attending the scouter training needed to certify me as a UC in good standing.

But I have zero desire at this stage of life to spend two weekends sitting in the camp mess hall learning about more leadership and management.

If WB was the intensive, challenging outdoor/patrol building experience I heard scouters discuss back in the 70s, I might be persuaded.

The two weekends in question: I could spend with my family, or with the troop and pack that I work for.

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Nike,

Regarding your question about skills awards:

They started for boy scouts about 1972...and were done away with mid/late eighties.

12 total, you had to earn 8, they were intended as instant recognition. For example, if you finished cooking skill award on the weekend camp out, ideally you should have received it at the campout or at the next scout meeting at the latest. I remember scoutmasters carrying the most popular ones in their briefcases.

Not as indepth as MBs, they gave scouts the feeling of accomplishment.

I think when advancement was revamped in the eighties, the skill award requirements were divided between the ranks of tenderfoot thru first class (for the most part).

They were pretty cool for new scouts...over time, they became scratched up on your official scout belt from camp outs and hikes. I quit wearing mine when I went to Philmont as a Life scout and picked up a leather belt.

Dynamics that can plague an organization as it matures:

- Lack of transparency (where is the money going?)

- Refusal to cut expenses when times are tight...instead, ask for more money...after all, it's the customers' problem, not the organizations'

- Headquarters staffs grow beyond the customers' ability to sustain them

Might be time to ask what we really expect, and need, from our exec staffs, local council all the way up to national.

We have some scouting historians about...how did BSA cope with the Great Depression? No doubt sacarifices were made for the good of the program.

- Colin Fletcher is tops!

- Scout Fieldbook, circa 1973. My parents gave me this for my 10th birthday...I read it cover to cover many times. Still enjoy reading it.

- 9th edition of the scout handbook, first printing was about 1979/80...it was a welcome relief from the previous "New Scouting" edition.

DeanRx: thank you for sharing your memories from your handbook...very well said, your words are definitely food for thought.

Merit badge camporee = spoon feeding.....

Runs contrary to the intent of the MB program. Ideally, the scout has to show the gumption to make the time and effort to contact the counselor, do the work, follow thru, etc.

Showing up for a weekend, sitting on a log passively listening, demonstrating a few skills, writing a couple essays, and going home Sunday afternoon with a bunch of MBs is hardly the stuff we are looking for.

Irony: the scouts aren't looking for lower standards either. But many troops and councils lower the bar of excellence. Youth are looking to be challenged. They've got the smarts and the will power to achieve...but many well intentioned leaders treat them like they are five years old...and thus water down the program.

In the MB realm, there is tremendous pride in finally earning that tough MB. I can still point to MBs on my sash, 30 years after the fact, that I thought I'd never finish. The counselor insisted I earned them honestly...and I treasure those the most.

These events, I'm convinced, are nothing more than a council execs' and/or commissioners' way of increasing numbers...attendees, badges earned, which leads to more advancement, etc. What they do with these increased numbers is unknown.

Kudo,

I've got to mull over many of your notes, but I agree that scouting has drifted from its roots.

When I crossed into boy scouts in 74, it was the dawn of New Scouting...a misguided attempt by National to make scouting more cool...and any time an institution tries to be hip, watch out!

If you look at handbooks and other literature from that era, it would appear that the baby, the tub, and bathwater were thrown out. Everything seemed to change, and I remember the old timers were not happy.

So the tough old uniforms were gone, and I wore the plain poorly made green ones...after a few washes, they were about as strong as pajamas. We had the red beret, which generated lots of discussion, for good or ill.

A true symbol of change was the fact that camping MB was not required for Eagle...I still have mine, and it doesn't have the silver/required for Eagle ring around it.

So the point of all my ramblings:

As I look back on the changes in scouting (name the decade), I am encouraged by one thing:

The heart of scouting is at the troop, pack, ship, crew level. National can change it's philosphical direction, or the uniform, whathaveyou, and true scouting still clicks along at the unit level.

Even in the weird 70s, with field skills not being emphasized for a few years, the scoutmasters continued to instill old-school scouting principles...campcraft, patrol method, safety in the field, pioneering, etc.

I'd like to make one distiction: I'm not for breaking rules. For example, though I may disagree with an official position or rule personally, it's not my call and I obey the rule, and enforce it. And I keep my opinion to myself (except here).

But just because National doesn't emphasize a particular school of thought from the past, it doesn't mean that troops can't still use it (provided it's not a safety issue or a "thou shalt not.")

And as you've seen, scouting goes thru cycles. My original scout handbook, early 70s, wasn't big on scoutcraft. But my second one, circa 1980, written with the help of the freshly re-discovered Greenbar Bill, is sublime. It was an unspoken acknowledgement (to me any way) that scouting's original roots were still important.

If the spirit of scouting surivived the funky '70's, it can survive just about any darned thing!

Owl62,

Thanks for mentioning the yucca pack...my old one is long gone, but I found another on ebay. I still use it as a ditty bag to bring odds/ends on campouts. Doesn't fit the adult frame well, but you can't beat the simplicity of design or functionality.

Not sure of its original cost, but I doubt it set moms and dads back too much back in the day.

Kittle,

Definitely recommend going to the resource camp.

Your troop needs you...and the time your spend with your son is irreplaceable.

Crossed from Webelos to Boy Scouts in Panama, Canal Zone, 1974. The troop was small but superb.

I was only in the troop for 3 weeks before we moved from Panama to Arizona. However, I had the privilege of going on 1 day hike with the troop.

Deep into the jungle on Howard Air Force Base...no adult the entire day, the SPL lead about 12 scouts. Each scout had a machete. SPL taught us new scouts many things about the jungle. It was a well-organized, disciplined hike with no horseplay.

I know times, rules and organizations change...but I smile every time I hear someone comment on the Evils of Sheath Knives.....

Earned Eagle in Arizona, moved immediately to Alaska.

So I got to experience scouting in jungle, desert and woodland (with lots of winter camping).

Some parents are disorganized. And lack basic communications skills (not answering rsvps, for example).

But even for those with good comm skills, it's easy to get buried under a ton of info.

The data (and commitments) roll in from everywhere. PTO/PTA, scouts, sports, church, school...hard to grapple with it all.

Previous posters have excellent suggestions...one that works well is the day-before email: "Friendly reminder, troop committee meeting tomorrow night at 7pm."

Needless babysitting? Perhaps. But the just-in-time communication helps parents focus.

As others stated,keeping meetings and locations set in stone, as much as possible, helps too.

Lodge-only events are fun, but effective only to a point.

When the lodge is actively, publicly involved in service-oriented activities, it raises the stature of the lodge and increases the interest of scouts who are not OA.

Perhaps at the next camporee, lodge members could staff the sign in desk, judge events, and the like, wearing their OA sashes. Or construct and orchestrate the closing campfire. Advance billing could make OA service prominent.

Or take on a service project to help the community, making it clear in the advertising the event is being conducted by OA Lodge X, BSA. It will build bonds.

Daddy O, my experience mirrors yours. I had one shirt from Bobcat to Arrow of Light. The only changes for Webelos were a new neckerchief and slide and the sleeve colors (and perhaps a hat?), circa 1973 - 74 (Webelos program was 1 year at the time).

Hate to say it, but I think it boils down to profits for BSA. The more doodads needed, the more to sell.

The problem with all the extras: the more complicated the uniform, the less likely folks will comply with the standards. Especially if they can't afford it.

Far better to have a simpler, less cluttered uniform...folks will be more eager to get on board...and the unit will be more "uniform."

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The campfire is a scouting tradition that has truly stood the test of time...still inspiring after all these years.

Macneb, welcome and best wishes!

My info is many years old, but "pond" is indeed the best description of the canoeing area (unless they've built a bigger like since).

I think the previous posters captured the spectrum of parent expectations to the letter.

Mafaking's comments about text book MBs and school v. summer camp really struck a cord--spot on.

I was out of scouting for many years, but after now serving in two different councils, I am dumfounded to see the number of "indoor" merit badges offered at summer camps.

I agree, outdoor merit badges should be the focus of any merit badge efforts at camp. And if scouts already have them, then they can participate in the more challenging outdoor programs designed for older scouts. Or they hike, relax, go to the rifle range...far better use of their limited time at camp.

Re my post above: "mystic" should be "mystique" X2

My apologies to teachers everywhere.

Neckerchiefs are good examples of useful items that have evolved (devolved?)...originally both a uniform part and a functional item for the field, many barely fulfill either role now.

Glad to hear some troops out there are keeping the neckerchief spirit alive. I value my old neckerchiefs, and am very happy to see more folks using them than not in my new council.

US Flag

Philmont Arrowhead pocket patch (consistently tough to achieve, whatever decade you got it!)

Heroism (any level)

Unit level leadership patch (troop, ship, crew, pack)

Depends on the lodge.

Good lodge:

- an organization of honor campers

- respectfully displays the traditions of the Native American tribe with which it associates

- consistently, visibly serves at camporees and the like in worker-bee and leadership positions alike (closing campfire set up, event judging, etc.)

Then scouts are interested. But when lodges put on shoddy ceremonies, in shabby costumes that do not reflect honor on Native American culture, OA respectability really takes a dive. It drops further when the lodge gets a rep for being nothing more than a flap/sash factory, or a frat that only thinks of itself.

In addition to being an honor camper organization, it's also about service. If the only service rendered is the spring and fall ordeal, then the OA is a mystery organization with the wrong kind of mystic.

Other practices that decrease OA mystic: holding OA overnight events where the lodge members sleep indoors on the floor of camp mess hall...cliques (as mentioned by other posters)...hazing...ordeals are not challenging or accomplish anything of lasting value (fine balance there, granted)...lack of clear direction to new members of why the lodge even exists or what is expected of them in the future.

Like anything in scouting, a program that strays from the original principles inevitably gets a bad rep.

Great discussion!

Earning Eagle isn't for every one...and the folks that top out at any other rank should be able to hold their heads high.

I've met some folks who regret their decision to not pursue Eagle. Usually, it's because they had all the resources, support and talent at their disposal, but just blew it off.

Either way, they should not be viewed as lesser scouts.

When I earned Eagle in 77, it was considered a good accomplishment--but not too big! The prevailing attitude was: you want to earn it? Great, get to work. No? That's fine too. Just be a good scout, please!

Today, waaaaaay too much emphasis is put on attaining Eagle.

Is Eagle the sole goal of BSA? I hope not. But we encourage that line of thought by sayings such as "once an Eagle, always an Eagle." Is a Life or Star scout's experience wiped away at midnight when they turn 18? No, not any more than the Eagle's.

So to me, the crucial point in all this is leadership. Whether you are a scoutmaster, shop foreman, first sergeant, school counselor, religious leader, it is up to you to recognize and groom the next Eagle, floor supervisor, squad leader, college bound freshman, pastor, what have you.

But if we have to drag them to the finish line, we may not be happy with the results.

As leaders in diverse professions, we do this at work, but then overlook it in scouting. Is every employee willing or able to be the next shop foreman? No. The same could be said for scouts. Not all are willing or able to make Eagle. But for those that might be, or show the gumption, we should do our 50% as leaders to give them the support they need to achieve it. But the scout must do their 50%. Regardless, we should treat all scouts--current and former--with respect.

Scouting isn't alone. For a couple decades, we've sent lots of young folks to college that would have been happier in a trade. But that's another story.

Off topic but:

GernBlansten, I got a chuckle out of your woodbadge comments...I agree!

Though I'm in favor of SPLs attending, Eamonn hit the nail on the head: what's happening and quality should be determining factors.

The meetings I attended as an SPL were very educational--in that particular council. And well attended in general.

I've been in three councils since as an adult leader, and many of the meetings are of little value to anyone, adult or youth. Endless discussions about bureaucracy, sundry carping, rehashing of old disputes, and the like.

My last council, in MS, had superb RTs, well attended. Why? They made them interesting.