desertrat77

I'm all for the SPL attending. After I made Eagle, and moved to another state, I was SPL in my new troop.

Attending RT and other adult leader meetings & even training, did three things for me. One, I became familiar with scouting in my new council. Two, it provided me an incentive to stay in scouting, as a youth, post-Eagle...I saw a new level of scouting that I hadn't been exposed to before, and it very much interested me. Three, as a teen, it was a real confidence boost to be considered worthy enough to be allowed to associate with adults. There were times during those meetings adult leaders would turn to me and say "Okay, so what do you think?" Good stuff.

Of interest (perhaps only to me, granted):

- Nothing newly released, and frankly, no interest in purchasing same any time soon

- Philmont belt and buckle from a 1977 trek as a teen...it still fits and it's still the only belt I wear in uniform

- Classic, comfortable Sanforized (sp) long sleeve shirt, circa 1950's...I wear this in the field and leave the ODL at home for meetings, conferences, banquets, etc. (Why BSA could not/would not reproduce this shirt style, with this material, is beyond me...it is superb!)

- Complete cub and scout shirts from my 1970's scouting days

SR540Beaver,

Fully concur with your example of how a troop should set up camp. What I was refering to as "tail gate camping" was too sweeping. What I should have specified was the equipment-heavy troop showing up with a ton of complicated gear that must be unloaded, put together, then taken down...hours worth of work on each end of the weekend camp out.

I was in a troop like this as a kid and I grew to almost dread camp outs because it would take a couple hours to load all five patrols' junk in a huge truck, then unload it, then spend hours putting together big tents with over-engineered designs, etc...seemed to me, especially as the PL, that I spent most of the weekend sorting, assembling and cleaning gear. Exhausting.

Moved to AK, and my new troop's camp set up ressembled your description. I was much happier, and relieved, to be rid of all that extra junk.

Just in case this might be viewed thru the hazy fog of memories, I saw the same thing at in my last council, and in my current council as well. Troops show up with a giant horse trailer, and other trucks, then the scouts spend most of Friday night, right up till taps, putting together huge dining tents, etc.

If it's a long term camp, hey, bring it all! But a weekend? All those creature comforts just take away from the outdoor experience.

Again, your example is the way to go. But some troops go with heavy gear all the time, and it lessens the enjoyment of the outdoors.

Welcome back!

I think I'm tracking with Beavah's line of thought....

First, troops conforming to the SM over time...I concur with this observation. This can be good if the SM a) offers a challenging program the boys thrive in and b) doesn't get in a rut. But...

Example that is not so good: the SM who loves tailgate camping? Yep, that troop will traditionally cart out a ton of stuff, spend all Friday night putting it together by lantern light, only to have to tear it all down Sunday morning. Exhausting. More time is spent on logistics than scouting.

Even the most successful leaders have to evaluate their performance over time, and make adjustments to their strategy.

Second, values: imparting values isn't necessarily a lecture or a sermon...it's seamlessly displaying values in every day decisions, then making a stand as appropriate. For example, why do we have troops that cut corners on safety, merit badge sign offs, advancement etc.?

To quote an old first sergeant: "What you tolerate, will happen."

Teaching our scouts to be "brave" is more than lifesaving and first aid in an accident...it's also tied to having the courage to take a stand when you know values are being breached. Much tougher to instill, but probably more important.

Would love to buy new, American made BSA products.

But our national manufacturing infrastructure is a fraction of what it used to be. Sad to say, we are largely a service based nation these days.

What manufacturing remains, labor costs can't compete with overseas.

So when I need something, I hit ebay.

I think your cause is valiant, but at BSA HQ, my impression is the die is cast. Honestly, I'm still a little surprised we went overseas with BSA manufacturing, given the historically close ties between unions and the BSA.

As punishment? No, never.

To promote physical fitness, like getting ready for a backpacking trip? Yes. Have the whole troop do them. Leaders too!

As a military brat, scouting was my stability as we moved base to base.

Joined cubs in Panama Canal Zone, 1970. I was proud to wear that cub uniform! Superb program, enjoyed every moment.

Crossed over to scouts, then three weeks later, moved to AZ...50 miler in the Grand Canyon, earned Eagle, 50 miler at Philmont.

Moved to Alaska...three years on camp staff, also served as SPL then JASM for my troop. Lots of winter camping and backpacking.

Having just marked year 25 in the Air Force, I've discovered one thing about uniforms:

Simple is best.

Too many uniform doodads, dangles, geegaws, pocket cookies, and variations thereof (ostensibly approved to "boost morale and recognition") will often result in confusion, non-compliance or a cluttered appearance.

Then the clutter obscures the truly meaningful items.

Folks want to wear their uniform with pride. It's alot easier to achieve when accouterment options are manageable and the directions are clear.

Fellow scouters,

You are correct: I should have included Crew Advisor, Sea Scout Skipper and Varsity Scout Coach along with Scoutmaster and Cubmaster...my apologies for the oversight, and I salute all the fine ladies and gents that serve in these key positions.

Perhaps a common list of ingredients, then the patrol invents their own meal.

Prize: something cool to hang from the patrol flag

Irony: the most distinguished patch a man or woman can wear as an adult is "scoutmaster" or "cubmaster."

Everyone else--regardless of fancy pants duty title--exists to support the troop or the pack.

I'm a big fan of ebay and thrift stores. Still alot of wear left in those old scout shirts. Some of them are fifty years old and still tough as iron.

As a UC, I wear proper uniform 100 percent. But my shirt was purchased in 1985, and is still clean, dry and servicable. Pants are a couple years old.

Somewhere along the way, scouting forgot the uniform was utilitarian...it was supposed to be tough enough to be scout proof. And affordable.

Horrible policy, keeping scouts from advancing via self-imposed rules to bolster the SM's scheme of a large/steady troop roster.

Smacks of SM egotism and snake oil salesmanship.

Bottom line, each scout is different. Over the course of a couple years, we can be surprised, on occassion, at who becomes the fast burner, who burns out and quits, etc.

A scout who stays on the roster till 18 may be "active" or he may be marking time....

Why take the risk that he might quit, then look back with regret.

The regret would be doubly tough if one of the stumbling blocks was Mr/Ms SM's flim/flam age constraints.

I submit that it would be better in the long run to take the risk a scout would quit after Eagle than to have him quit and never make it.

To former scout leaders (pack and troop level): why did you leave? What kind of support did you get or not get from the commissioner staff? What type of support (and from whom) would have made a positive difference during your tenure?

Concur with DeanRx...political correctness strikes again. Chastising well meaning folks for using a perfectly appropriate phrase? Tiresome.

Disclaimer: I'm not advocating the old rough house tactics during tap out. Some were hurt badly over the years and I think it was proper to stop the practice altogether. Plus, the muggings didn't add a bit to the OA's goals...it was more like a rite of passage, or entertainment for onlookers. Unnecessary stuff.

However, to chide someone for using the words "tap out" a quarter century after the rough housing ended...good grief, that's the revenge of the policy wonks...as noted, they are usually self-dual-hatted as uniform police as well.

HiLo, thanks for the post. I followed the fire news with great sadness.

Scouts helping in the midst of crisis is in the best tradition of our shared scouting history. Best wishes....

Echo what Gunny said: make the transition and then take a six month break...but be available for phone calls from the SM.

Once the announcement is made, and the transition under way, resist the folks who will tell you that the troop can't go on without you, you've got to come back as SM, or at least ASM, or at the very least as part of the TC, because if you leave then they will too, etc. They mean well, speaking from the heart.

The troop may struggle at first. Things will no doubt be done differently. But they'll survive. You owe it to the new SM to let find his/her way. Clean break.

Worse transition: I was an ASM. Our SM had a public meltdown and started a fist fight with another ASM, in front of the scouts, at the end of a weekly meeting. Looooong story why, but here's what makes the debacle even worse:

Fun fact 1: Both the ASM in question and I were scouts in this SM's troop ten years earlier.

Fun fact 2: The SM had presented his sparring partner, the ASM, his Eagle back in the day

SM resigns before he's canned. DE convinces me to be SM; he'll be there for me, every step of the way. So will the UC. I never see either of them again.

Pretty appalling memory, as I type this out. But the troop survived. And they did even better in the future after I got orders and moved on (military).

The experience, plus a few others, helps me be a better UC today.

It takes both technical and leadership skill to succeed as a patrol leader. Must be balanced.

Scoutcraft is good, but my ability to sharpen an axe, make a duty roster, or identify poison ivy didn't not spare me from some ugly leadership failures as a new PL. It's quite an adventure to quell a near mutiny of your patrol at midnight, thinking of one incident. Though I didn't ask them, I'll bet they didn't care about scoutcraft at the moment--mine or anyone elses. I needed to step up and lead, pure and simple.

But we figured things out as the months rolled on. My SM chewed me out at times, encouraged me at others. It's all about that safe environment to fail...that's where the PL will learn the most.

You can tie a one handed bowline? Great. How about keeping morale high during a 2 day rain storm? Or motivating the dishwashers to finish the breakfast pots/pans before lunch? Different skill set.

SMT,

I'm sorry...the loss a great Scout.

Concur with Eagle92...photo montage and personal testimonies will probably mean alot more in the long run.

Sorry you've got to contend with the poorly crafted correspondence. Poor attention to detail and situational awareness of the part of the govt staffers.

Also agree with Eamonn's observation...is the family ready for this? As you know, each family (and family member) grieves differently.

Jo - greetings and concur with the rodent observation!

The badge is only as educational or lame as the counselor makes it. My wilderness survival mb experience in 1976 was superb. I didn't "explain" anything...all demo, out in the boonies. It wasn't easy but I completed it and lo, these many years later, I still feel some of that pride.

Merit badges that require effort to earn are worth the most. Counselors don't have to haze or add requirements to accomplish this. They just have to make sure the scout earns it fair and square.

As for the odd ball/obscure/rarely earned mbs: I'm all for keeping them. Studying my first scout handbook circa 1974, it was the edition with all of the mb requirements in the back. Sadly though, it was the end of an era for many farming merit badges...they got the axe a year or two later. Didn't earn them but found the requirements interesting. Forage crops? Farm design? Had no idea the subjects were that complex.

If we are seeking to broaden perspectives, having a variety is the best route.

Some of those "easy" badges might be around for a reason...I earned a few of them myself as a youth (reading, dog care, firemanship). They gave me confidence to tackle the tougher ones.

The Eagle required "indoor" series (Citizenships, etc.) can be fairly dull. But they add something to the potential Eagles' knowledge in the long run.

The problem isn't the badges or requirements themselves. It's the low expectations that some leaders and mb counselors set for their scouts. Whether it's scouting, college or the work place, an easy "A" means little compared to the "B" or "C+" that you broke sweat to achieve.

1. Yes...and I'd expand it to allow adults who earned rank of any kind as a scout to wear their highest rank as long as they like. Why? Most scouts have no idea what those knots mean, which is probably just as well in the long run. But they respect leaders who are former scouts, regardless of what rank they earned.

And I wonder sometimes at the "Eagle or Nothing" philosophy. I know many former First Class, Star and Life scouts...I would stack them up against an Eagle any day, in any aspect of scouting, specifically in dedicated service and representing scouting's ideals.

2. Eagle, 1977

GWD, it seems that forums develop "first families" of members--a faithful crew of old timers who set group norms and post a majority of opinions. All perfectly understandable, except when it strays to hypercritical commentary towards new people or ideas outside the group norm.

I too have learned alot from this forum over the years...thanks to all for posting their experiences, comments and questions. Whether at work or in scouting, "company answers" are only part of learning. I learn a heck of alot more from people who discuss--freely--their successes and failures.

True, not all troops are created equal. Each troop can have it's own way of doing things and still operate well within BSA standards. I think it's the troop leaders' privilege to make organizational adjustments to suit their units' unique circumstances. Some things are non-negotiable (safety, scout oath and law, etc.), but if adults are going to make the sacrifice to lead a troop, they should have the lee way to organize and lead as they see fit.

Practices change. A scout in the seventies, I recall the scoutmasters' beer cooler being present on campouts. Didn't seem like a big deal at the time, but I certainly would not follow suit as an adult leader myself.

As an assistant scoutmaster attending my council's scout leader training in 1985, a cadre member counseled me--in the most condescending manner possible--about my sheath knife. According to him, my knife was unsafe, a poor example for the scouts, a crime against the universal goals of scouting, it needed to be removed from my belt immediately and hidden from view, etc. During his lecture, he was smoking a cigarette, inhaling each puff deep into his lungs, savoring it...as if it were his last. Irony indeed.

While serving as an ASM, we troop leaders refrained from drinking, smoking and swearing (and yes, wearing sheath knifes!) in front of the scouts. Once every other month or so, we adults would go camping without the scouts, on own time, and drink beer, smoke cigars, and use colorful language.

Back to the topic: I would not do anything that would give even the appearance of impropriety at BSA sanctioned events. No need to tarnish reputations or demonstrate behavior that conflicts with BSA standards or with the values a scout's parents might be trying to instill at home. On my own time, I avoid behavior that is illegal and would bring discredit myself, my family, and scouting.

I fully concur with getting rid of the adult troublemakers...whatever they may contribute, they aren't worth the heartache. Folks can stir the pot, play devil's advocate, be a curmudgeon and the like...that keeps life interesting and entertaining. But are all familiar with the Troop Disrupter...the sooner they depart, the better.

The obesity issue is a delicate subject. Someone may have already mentioned this, but I'd recommend focusing on fitness rather than weight. Regardless of weight, am I reasonably active? Can I hike and swim? We all have limitations as life progresses, but the scouts are watching.