desertrat77

1 hour ago, walk in the woods said:

Another way to think about this is how unfortunate it is that in 1948 the Boy Scouts had to codify camping as a requirement rather than just operating under the assumption that camping was happening by default.  Being at the peak of camping requirements isn't necessarily a good thing.  I came up during the ISP, we camped all the time, requirements and practice are two different things.

Well said.  I too came up during the ISP era and the annual camping format was:

- 1 weekend camp out every month, Friday - Sunday, including December (always tents)

- Spring and fall camporees; sometimes in addition to the monthly troop camp out

- In my Alaska troop, an extra trek (3 or 4 days over December break) for senior scouts in mountains, tents, above the snow line (crampons, ice axe country)

- Summer camp

- 50 miler (most summers)

Add in OA, training camp weekends for PLC, and you've got a full outdoor agenda.

It hardly mattered that camping skill award and camping MB weren't required.  Almost every troop camped, and camped a lot.

@HashTagScouts, thank you for your insights!

It seems the root causes aren't OA unique, but extend throughout the BSA:  units don't camp as often as they should.  And if I can take it a step further, they don't camp as they should.  From my observation, there is almost no emphasis on patrol method, woodcraft skills, or adventure.  Camping is infrequent and usually at an improved campground with plenty of amenities and a giant horse trailer full of gear.  Not much of a chance for a scout to grow. 

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Apparently the chapter is no longer giving that option. My boys received their letters today. When I gave it to the oldest, he told me he is still not interested. He told the OA election team that, but they still left his name on the ballot. 

Pure desperation on the OA's part.  The lodge's actions are completely contrary to everything we've be taught about our Order.

What would E. Urner Goodman and Carroll Edson say if they saw the OA today?

59 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

 If it were as difficult to be elected today as it was 50 years ago, with election quotas and limits, we would probably see more of those elected considering it an honor rather than a right, and being more involved after completing their ordeal.

Absolutely. 

10 minutes ago, walk in the woods said:

This probably should be a different topic, but, did anybody attend/view the Thrive Webinar?  I was just looking at the website, https://oa-bsa.org/thrive, does it really say that in 2018 only 57% of units held elections, only 71% of those elected are completing their Ordeal, and only 30% ever come back?  

That's sobering.

1 minute ago, Oldscout448 said:

First round is on me.  18 year old Glenlevit work for you? 

You bet! [looks around for canteen cup....]

1 minute ago, Oldscout448 said:

Don't know what to say in cases like that. If there are truly no traditions and more importantly no service then in my opinion (and Allowats) they do not deserve to wear the arrow. I guess folding the teepee up and riding into the sunset might just be your only option.  

Do we raise a glass to the old days or just sit down and weep?

I've been in several different councils as an adult (when I was active duty).  Over the years, I found one lodge amongst them that still resembled the OA as we knew it.  The others?  They were either so dead that the good candidates refused to join them, or they billed themselves as an exclusive social club, but not focused on service or brotherhood.

Even for the lodges that want to adhere to the old tried/true ways, there are national level polices that undermine their efforts.

Is it really the OA anymore? 

I'm all for raising a glass. 

2 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

The fire may indeed be dying down, but it won't be my hand that puts it out.  We are still fighting to keep it going here. Last weekend we did a full blown tapout ceremony for one ( yes just one) scout who's crew had their election too late for the spring callout and ordeal.  It was about 4 hours of work for 6 arrowmen to make it all happen.  But they did it cheerfully. i suspect National wouldn't approve of our little ceremony,  but we are way beyond caring or asking for permission at this juncture.   The scouts have this deep seated conviction that the order belongs to THEM.  (especially the 20 year old vigils)  Not some faceless bureaucrats in Irving Texas.

I mean  absolutely no disrespect,  I know you guys loved the Order as much as I did and that's saying something.  

I can read the writing on the wall, but I guess I'm just a stubborn old Irishman who's too thick to quit.

Oldscout   (Mikemossin Wunachk )

 

@Oldscout448, your endeavors are absolutely in keeping with the traditions of the Order, and as long as an ember is there, I too would keep fanning the flame.

However, there are parts of scouting where there is nary a spark from the OA and hasn't been for a long time.

The true spirit of the OA, which sustained our great organization for decades, has indeed departed.

It's time to put out the campfire.

@skeptic, here is an older article that mentions Mr. Greinsky.  It may be one or both articles misquoted his title:

https://www.silive.com/news/2013/01/staten_islanders_support_move.html

From the article:  "It's long overdue," said Eagle Scout Charles Greinsky, an Island Council of Boy Scouts vice president and an officer in the Staten Island Jewish Committee on Scouting. "The principles of leadership and citizenship should be taught to everyone, regardless of sexual orientation."

The difference in strategic messaging, image and resource focus:

Pre 1972/Improved Scouting Program:  "The BSA is an outdoors organization."

Post 1972:  "The BSA is an organization.  We do different things.  The outdoors is one of those things."

When outdoor adventure was the cornerstone of the BSA, adults knew what they signed up for.  They'd either be outdoors as a leader, or in a support capacity that directly helped folks get outdoors.

Not so today.  Now you can have a long career in the BSA, as a pro or volunteer, and not have to "deal" with outdoor "stuff."  Sure, you might have to gut out two weekends for WB, but after that the coast is pretty clear.  Clean uniforms, lots of meetings and conferences, etc.

Hike 5 miles into camp?  Chop wood with an axe?  Start a fire in the rain?  Cook a meal on the coals with a couple mess kits?  Build pioneering projects?  Sleep in a tent?   These experiences are definitely not stressed or prioritized by most above unit level today.  They are just quaint notions from yesterday, something to keep the scouts amused until they start the fast track to Eagle.  Then it's SUV time, driving scouts to the local university on Saturdays, go through the assembly line, and leave with a hand full of merit badges at the end of the day.  Lunch provided.  The only thing the scout has to do is put on their uniform in the morning.  The adults do everything.  Less risk for Irving TX to worry about.

OA is going in the same direction.

Sure, we have our high adventure bases, but those are cash cows (some of them).  So Irving is willing to assume the risk there. 

Whatever the priorities of the BSA may be, it's safe to say that their best selling product--the great outdoors at the unit level--has been shoved to the corner of the store, bottom shelf, covered with cob webs. 

And if the outdoor adventure is not the top priority of the BSA, it's really not the BSA any more. 

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

Not too many years ago at summer camp we had something like that happen.  We had a new Dad who was keeping up with the first year scouts.  They have a 2 hour program in the morning, request is to at least have 1 leader there if there are any behavior or attention concerns, staff brings them to the center of the area, they go back to the patrol they are working with.  Basically the leaders sort of hang out, chat, do e-mails, some do some work, etc.  

He came back to the site and told us how one person who was WB staffer, on their Council training staff, etc etc and felt as there were adult leaders there, training must be done.  She was very insistent and persistent.  Their version of discussions and making sure all were graced by their knowledge.  The area director was not really sure what to do about this.  After comments to the camp, on the second day the program director stepped in, if they wanted to do training, that was fine but they needed to do it in another area and the PD would be glad to make the announcement at the morning leader meeting.  Just needed to know the subject so interested folks could attend.

Nobody was interested.

Kudos to the PD, handled the situation like a champ!

But Mr/Ms Pontificator...ugh.  They cannot bear the thought of scouters a) tending to the business of their unit and b) having free time.   Unit level scouters must put up with mandatory training/harangues at work, they certainly don't need it at a scouting event.  Involuntary attendance, especially.

3 minutes ago, Double Eagle said:

And this is for DesertRat77, Did my time near Colon and JOTC as well as Ft Clayton in Panama.  The Panama Canal Council was great.  Machetes and the occasional black palm thorn through any glove or in a leg.  Not to mention, NEVER SLEEP ON THE GROUND!!!

We were at Howard AFB...beautiful country, loved it there.  I agree, PCC was outstanding.

14 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

District has a winter event, we have stopped attending.  Basically run by the adults in the OA, complete with (I kid you not) 20 page handbook.  Troops and patrols are told what they should bring, how they should dress, are evaluated as such.  I asked one time why not send out a list of events, patrols bring what they think they need?  Blank stares.

My final straw was when the SPL and I went to the Friday meetings and there was a 20 minute diatribe on Safety.  Yes be safe, but Good Lord.  Then another 15 minutes health lodge processes.  MY SPL leaned over and asked is we couldn't just handle stuff at the campsite if needed, I said you bet.  In the 45 minute meeting maybe 5 minutes about the program.

Don't get me started on the convoluted formulas, secret calculations, and mystery awarded points to determine the "winner" of the camporee.  Funniest thing was at all the assemblies, etc the only ones talking were the OA adults, they had actual Scouts standing there but none of them we (I guess??) deemed worthy to be in charge.

Guess with all their WB and OA training they missed the whole youth

 

Sounds like our neck of the woods too.   I was director of a multi-district camporee a few years go.  I tried to my best to buck these nanny-state trends.  Had some success.  At the cracker barrel I stressed my thanks and respect to the units that took the time to participate.  That the oath and law covered 99 percent of what we expected that weekend.  Our package was only a few pages, mostly dedicated to the events and schedule.

So after a few moments I stopped talking and asked if they had anything for me.  No?  Okay, see you around camp.

Ah, not so fast.  One of my fellow staffers, a true WBer through and through, stopped everybody from leaving.  Rather, demanded they stop and listen to him talk.  He gave them a long condescending speech about the aims of scouting, including a quiz ("Who can name the second aim of scouting?  Anybody?"), safety briefing ala tie your shoes and don't stare into the sun, etc.

Embarrassing and unnecessary.   And we wonder why units stay away from these events in droves.

And the OA advisors!  Another group of adults that should not be seen nor heard. 

1 minute ago, Double Eagle said:

  And, machetes still rock! 

I agree!  Dad was stationed in Panama/Canal Zone.  I was a brand new Boy Scout, just crossed over, first hike with the troop.  Each scout had a machete.  I was loaned one for the hike.  Deep jungle.  No adults.  Star Scout/SPL ran the show.  Everyone conducted themselves like good scouts.  Wonderful day, didn't want it to end.  I'll never forget it.

2 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

HEHEHEHEHE. Last camporee I ran, sheath knives were REQUIRED for several events. It was a wilderness survival camporee. Talk about freaking people out. I had to put out an addendum stating sheath knives are allowed by BSA and state law. I even had to post links to BSA literature and Scoutstuff.org to prove it.

 

 

Outstanding Eagle94!   What a great camporee!

47 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I came to one council one to do an event only, was surprised that in an 1,800 acre reservation they had the troops all corralled in the big field when there were acres (literally) and acres of land they could have used.  There was another whole camp they didn't use.  Looked like some sort of really bad festival.  Each troop have like 100 SF and the next troop guidelines were right there.

Not sure what the thinking is for these

I'm not sure either, it defies explanation.  All of this beautiful land in our great country, and staff mandates that everyone camps shoulder to shoulder.  

I think many event managers in the BSA don't really know how units are supposed to camp, or if they do, they are so risk averse they crowd everyone together and lay down a bunch of rules.

Even if weather and conditions permit, these events usually mandate NO CAMPFIRES.  And you can bet your last dollar the event package will scream "NO SHEATH KNIVES!!!!" even if the scouts have been trained to use them and have permission from parents and unit leaders.

The biggest factor is the lack of unit autonomy.   Camporees are gatherings, yes, but units should be able to camp on their own and have the patrols a good distance apart.  Neighboring units are there but rarely heard or seen.  Same for the event staff.  We should see them at the cracker barrel, flags, and closing campfire.  OA should run the events. 

37 minutes ago, mrkstvns said:

...where's the adventure in staying on the trail???

If you hike in many places in Oklahoma, you'll stray off the trail once.  If not the ticks, the chiggers will definitely convince you the trail isn't so bad after all.    In which case, bring some old fashioned lye soap, lather, wash the chigger bites good, but don't rinse.  Works well.

@69RoadRunner, your camporees sound similar to ours (the ones outside of our district, that is).  All units crowded together by decree, though there are plenty of woods and other open spaces to camp.  Adults acting as SPL and PLs, with all of the scouts cooking together under one dining fly.  Clueless people being loud during quiet hours. 

Then we add the dynamic of WBers, be they on the staff or self appointed, directing the troops and crews as if they were all cub dens under their control....

It's no surprise camporee participation is dropping like a stone around the BSA.  At least the councils I've been in.  Fun factor is nearly zero.

Added:  I'm not a jambo person either.  I'd rather camp in the middle of the nowhere.

I've found I like simple camping the best.

Less gear, gear that is elementary/low tech, food that simple fare but high quality.

A real camp fire...for cooking..conversation...listen to the wind blowing through trees.  Acceptable number of hissing, over-bright propane lanterns:  zero.

Etc.

19 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

I lived and made it home.  But there were kids this weekend that looked at me like I was crazy and it was their first time EVER.  When I used the word "No".

Congratulations!

I completely understand re the kids and their amazement at the word "no."  As a former JROTC instructor, I saw the same dynamic.

From my old handbook, the famous ISP edition, 1972, coat tick with grease or oil.  After it lets go, wash with soap and water. 

I recall a lit match or cigarette held close was also recommended back in the day.  

These days I find good success with the tweezers from my Swiss army knife and forego the grease/oil/gasoline/ammonia/match/cigarette.  Soap and water is still adhered to.

24 minutes ago, Cburkhardt said:

Liability:  Tightening implementation of YP practices and finally 100% enforcing YPT Training.  Better and continuous records checking for criminal and family agency matters.  Getting ready to file for Ch. 11 so we can finally pay deserving victims and no longer live under a threat that the next suit will ruin us.  Financial:  Disbanding financial train-wreck councils and putting that territory into those Councils run by responsible volunteers.  Charging fees that recover costs.  Downsizing staff not serving units.  Membership:  doing away with catastrophic and non-enforced  "don't ask don't tell" policy.  Adding all-girl troops and dens (demanded for decades by Scouters and others -- including SMs I met as a camp staffer in the 70's.  Program:  Going back to the Green Bar Bill way of doing things.  Pushing executives into unit-serving positions in the field or getting rid of them.   Yes, a lot I happened in the last 3 or 4 years. I could go on for hours.

@Cburkhardt, thank you, much appreciated.  In all seriousness, this is the best summary of the BSA I've read in a long time. 

@Cburkhardt, I appreciate and respect your perspective.  There have been some positive steps recently.  However, I'm interested in your comment that we're in the process of "working out our financial, liability, program and membership fails."  Maybe I missed something but I haven't seen much of anything lately, from a strategic level, that addresses these issues.  Could you please provide some details or steer me to a source?  Thanks!