DeanRx

Master-At-Arms MB ?

I'd bet the G2SS killed that one off

For those that send scouts off to a Troop with check in hand or those that transfer the cub's individual account to another pack....

HOW ? Do you handle a cub that either drops out, or ages out of Webelos and chooses not to go on to Boy Scouts? It does happen you know...

I'm surprised you haven't been faced with an outbound scout (and parents) with their hand out expecting the Pack to cut them a check. After all you pay out for a scout's transfer... why not their 'severance' package?

While I understand the BIG earners to want to have some personal funds to direct towards their camp fees, etc... fund-raising is to "make the pack go..." - part of being a scout is raising funds to support your UNIT and the funds belong to the UNIT, not to you.

If you were to ever transfer churches, do you go to the pastor and ask for your donations back to take with you to your new congregation? To me - its the same concept.

Good to know about the Medicine MB. I was working from an outdated source list (namely the back of my old scout handbook).

The hunting in venturing is a good start.

I still think its a good idea to have a young man either hunt or slaugter their own dinner at least once in their life - so they have an appreciation of where food actually comes from. There is a reason the native americans and early settlers didn't waste food, nor took it for granted. A good deal of that attitude came from the sweat equity and somewhat unpleasant task of the stalk, hunt, kill, and butcher.

One doesn't waste what one has to work hard to attain. We've really lost sight of that fact since the majority of folks moved off the farms in the late 1950's. Now even the smallest towns have multiple drive-thrus and folks can get their hamburger cooked to order without getting out of the car.

The whole process lends itself to taking food-sources for granted, thus becoming complacent about where and how one's food is processed... that is, I guess, until the FDA fails to do its job and no one can get Peanut Butter for awhile... then folks start to take notice.

I can't believe you put in "Ashley's book on Knots" - thats like the knot bible ! If its not in there, I don't think it can be done with a rope...

I like:

"The Dangerous Book for Boys" - everything the G2SS and tree huggers say you can't do and everything a 11 y/o boy wants to do.

"Last Child in the Woods" - by Richard Louv - its good to be reminded WHY we are doing the thigns outdoors that we do and be reminded to let the lads wander and discover on their own... sometimes that is the best teacher.

"The Offical Boy Scout Handbook" - by William "Bill" Hillcourt - 9th ed., 5th printing, Dec 1981 -

Not really anything else I need. All the really good pages are already dog-eared and there are notes in the margins of important tips recited by Scoutmasters of "long ago". Funny, the handwritten notes are in vaguely familiar penmanship.... Hmmmm.... I always seem to think of things left undone when I look at the Life Scout requirements on page 535 and see the only thing missing was a scoutmaster's conference. Its even sadder to turn the page and see only 3 missing MB's and an Eagle Scout project unplanned. It gives me a purpose to push the boys in my charge just a little more than they think they can achieve - b/c its at this threashold of comfort that true personal growth takes place..... Wish I would have known and appreciated that fact back in 1986.(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

DenZero-

At the risk of being seen as ruse - might I suggest that the answer to your enrollment issues is not throwing money at it. You have 6 cubs right now, if I read the post correctly.

I'd suggest spending $50 (one time outlay of funds) to put together a fun, action packed, game (outdoors if possible) for one of the pack meetings. Hold it in a public park if possible to give yourself some free community publicity. Hold it on a Sunday afternoon (so families with cub aged kids will likey be at the park).

Then the kicker... USE word of mouth !! Your challenge to your scouts should be for each of them to invite and bring a minimum of ONE non-scout friend to the event. Bringing TWO is even better. Don't call it an "open house" or "round-up" even if that is what it is.... call it a "Fun Fair" or something catchy. Engage the prospective scouts and parents with a good time, then just happen to have some welcome packets and enrollment forms with you to have the good folks fill out if their son had a good time at the event.

If you get every scout to bring one friend that joins - there you've doubled your Pack size.

Best of luck - I hope it works out for you guys.

YiS,

DeanRx

I don't know if it is BSA national policy, but our council has a listing of "approved" cub family camp sites. They must at a minimum have:

1) Latrines - either flush, port-a-john, or pit. They cannot be holes dug by the unit. They must be semi-fixed, permenant toilet facilities for the given campground.

2) Potable water within 500 ft of the campsite.

Finally - you MUST have at least ONE individual in the pack BALOO trained. This is a BSA national rule. The BALOO trained individual MUST be present at all times at the campout. I'd advise having a minimum of 2 people BALOO trained. Last thing you want is to be forced to cancel a pack campout for 50 people because your one BALOO trained person had an emergency and cannot attend.

Get Trained - Good Luck - Happy Camping

YiS,

DeanRx

This is the 1st year we've done individual accounts for our cubs. One stipulation I asked for in our by-laws (if I was going to support such accounts) was: "All individual pack funds must be spent / redeemed by the scout while they are an active member in the pack. If a scout ages-out of cubs, or disenrolls in the pack, all funds in the scout's individual account revert to the pack's general fund."

Bottom line - they either use it or loose it.

If they don't use it up, then their fundraising is for the "good of the group".

I would ask - if you send a cubbie off to join a troop with their check from any balance remaining in their cub individual account, then WHAT do you do with a scout that either quits or ages-out and chooses not to go into Boy Scouts? Should the pack then cut them a check for the money they've earned? I doubt it. At that point it becomes "income" to the scout and must be claimed as such come tax time. Not a fun thing for the scout, nor for the unit as it runs afoul of their tax-exempt status I would think.

If you cash out a scout - they should claim it as income and your unit technically owes the IRS its half of the income tax on the "pay" generated by the scout's fundraising. Not a fun place to be IMHO.

Besides, as other posters have stated. The funds technically belong to the CO. They are just "earmarked" for the individual scout in the unit. The scout leaves, then the earmark is removed and the $$ goes into the unit'd general fund.

I don't know about eliminating any badges... condensing into a group for some, maybe...

Its been a long while since I've earned any and being in cubs, my son hasn't gotten to the point of doing them yet.

One thing I always wondered as a scout: WHY are there 3 Citizenship MB's? Community, Nation, World ?!?! Aren't they all the same? I agree with the other poster that stated "Collecting" should be an umbrella grouping of stamp and coin collecting.

One MB I'd like to see made a requirement for Eagle: Sewing.

I know its not manly, but it is extremely useful information for any adult to know. I have several MOTHERS in our pack that can't sew their cub's badges on for them. My mother told me that she quit sewing on patches once I made WEBELOS. If I wanted it on my uniform - I was expected to sew it on there. Young men should be able to sew on a button, quick mend a seam, etc... just as much as they should be able to change a flat tire and check their oil. To me its part of being a self-sufficient adult. Add in the fact that it'll make them a better fisherman (knots) and they might need to sew up a nasty gash for first aid on a backcountry Philmont trip and its a handy little skill to have.

One MB I'd like to see added: HUNTING. It'll never happen - far too much outcry from the PETA folks.

I just think that at least ONCE in a scout's life they should be made (if they are meat eaters) to kill, field dress, and cook their own protein. People today have such a removed idea about where their food comes from and how it is processed. If you have to stalk, kill, and prep your own meal - one has a much greater appreciation for the food they so readily take for granted everyday.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned, but I favor the Scoutcraft things much more than the "management" classroom type MB's. I think they have their place. Especially with regards to Citizenship and some of the Sciences and Math. But things like reading? Come on - that isn't a MB as much as it is a nessesary skill to navigate life (and do other MB's). Reading MB is to academics as a walking MB would be to hiking or backpacking. Its assumed the skill of walking is mastered by the fact that one completes the hiking or backpacking MB. Its not its own skill-set. Nor should reading be.

I also always thought it odd that there is a Dentistry MB and a Vet Sciences MB, but no medicine MB. Yes, there is a First Aid MB, but nothing devoted to spuring a scout's interest in advanced medical techniques. First Aid coupled with Chemistry is the closest you can get. They don't even have a Biology MB, do they?

Just my ramblings...

Our Pack Budget covers the following:

All recharter / insurance expenses.

All rank, patches, belt loops, pins earned in the year.

All additional trophies, plagues, and medals - pinewood and other derby winners.

Scout handbook, necherchief and slide for all that cross-over.

All kits for our 3 derbies (Pinewood, Space, Raingutter).

Meal and room rental for B&G

Room rental for any other large event durring the year (i.e. Pinewood)

We subsidize the cost of pack family campouts, but also charge a nominal fee ($15 per person) to offset food and to limit the number of no-show sign-ups.

We also have concessions (pizza and drink) at our larger events (i.e. Pinewood) and charge a small fee for food. Not even break even, but again keeps the waste to a minimum. I think we sold a slice and a drink for $2 this year.

Day Camp and Resident camp are NOT INCLUDED and are paid for by the individual scout's family.

***************************************************************************

We charge $80 in dues per year - this includes Boys Life.

We only do one fundraiser (Popcorn sales)- you either help sell, or we provide a "buy-out" amount to the parents. If they'd rather just write the check - we're happy to take it.

A portion of individual popcorn sales (10%)goes into a personal account per scout that can be spent on ANY scout related activity (i.e. off-set camp dues, buy new camping gear, replace a lost handbook, etc...) IF the scout ages out of cubs w/out spending their personal account, funds are rolled into the pack's general fund.

We have an opportunity fund set aside to offset the $80 dues if a family is truely in financial need. Determination is made by CC, CM and that scout's DL to keep it confidential. Any scout that receives money via opportunity fund MUST participate in Popcorn "show-n-sell".

We sell a LOT of popcorn to make all this happen. We just make it known up front to both scouts and parents... if we don't sell, then we have to make some hard choices about what NOT to have in our program this year. Either that, or we move to a "pay-per-event" system. So far, the majority of parents aren't too keen on the nickle and dime you "pay-per-event" idea, so we fundraise. I'm glad too, b/c keeping track of WHO has or hasn't paid would be a nightmare for the treasurer.

We have right around 55 scouts active in the pack - if that matters.

$50 per kid on publicity ? What?

This is Cub Scouts, not trying to land a new business client. What on EARTH are you spending $50 / kid on?

$50 total on flyers and gadgets (pencils, welcome packets etc...) for a round-up, but nowhere near $50 per boy.

These are kids that haven't even joined yet? How does your active scout parents feel about spending the packs hard earned fund-raising dollars on people not yet in the organization? You must be in a very up-scale area if you are really spending this much on recruitment.

I would say only take a cub w/out a parent in very RARE cases. I am BALOO trained and full of common sense (if that matters at all)...

Positives that I see:

A kid that otherwise wouldn't get to camp, gets to camp.

Taking a scout our of a bad home environment for a weekend can have a positive lasting impression of the kid.

A scout w/ disabled family members (I had a buddy as a youth who had both parents blind), if my dad hadn't ever asked him to tag along fishing, the kid would likely never fished in his life.

Sometimes the PARENTS are the discipline problems - get them out fo the way and the kid acts OK

Negatives that I see:

1) The whole YPG issue - what happens if "johnny" gets homesick and can't / refuses to sleep in the 'scout's only' tent? You're between a rock and a hard place.

2) Discipline - I hate having to do it to other people's kids, but I will if I have to. Make DANG sure the scout's parents know that you will be disciplining their child if need be and discuss appropriate punishments (if need be) - with the parents BEFORE you agree to take the scout w/out an adult.

3) Scout feels "left out" b/c they are the only one there without a parent.

4) Limited / lack of actual supervision b/c you've spread yourself too thin.

My advice - do it only if you have to. Otherwise, be an advocate for the scout. Mom and Dad divorced, Dad's not around and mom works weekends, then does this scout have an uncle, grandfather, cousin or older brother (over 18 y/o), that can go as their "adult partner" on the campout? If so, utilize these people and offer to help set up the tent, loan them equipment, etc...

The last thing you want to do is not include a scout that wants to camp. However, be very careful about overestimating your ability to organize a pack, lead a campout, be responsible for someone else's son, oh yeah and STILL have some time left over to devote to your own offspring so they don't feel like THEY don't have a parent at the campout.

If you do decide to take on the challenge of having some of the scouts attend w/out a guardian, I STRONGLY suggest you recruit some volunteers from other families in the pack that are able to have BOTH parents (or two adults) from the same family going. Then one of those adults can be the responsible party for the "lone" scout.

I had a campout w/ a single mom. Her son and another scout in the same Den are best friends. Scout #2 was not going to go camping b/c his parents both had work conflicts for the weekend. Solution was that single mom's sister (over 18) came along and acted as the "adult" for scout #2. The two scouts shared a tent and the mother and sister of the first scout shared a tent. No violation of YPG and every scout had a one-to-one ratio of adults with them for the weekend. Everyone had a good time.

Good luck on this one. Its one of the harder issues faced by adult leadership at the cub level.

YiS,

Dean

OGE - as I stated in the post about scouts using the F-word... seems in todays' society we are always LOOKING for some reason to be offended.

Basementdweller beat me to it on the Beaver Patrol. I was in the Beaver Patrol as a scout and we abruptly got asked to change the patrol name (changed to Vikings for some reason) after one stint at summer camp when we began refering to ourselves as the 'naked beaver patrol'.

It really was harmless fun. The nickname was given because two kids in the patrol when skinny dipping in the canoe lake on a dare from another Troop. Those of us involved at the time had NO idea what a "naked beaver" was... we just thought it was funny.

It was the well intended, yet misguided adults that ensured all in the patrol got more of a sex-ed class at summer camp than our parents bargined for.

I can't imagine the troop with the math folks in it... the "Pi" patrol, really ?!?! I can imagine a nice patrol pacth with a likeness of Einstein on it.... Patrol Cheer... "Hair Pi, Hair Pi, Hair Pi" !! That'll go over well

Whats the big fricking deal? Its a substitue, a stand in. If you don't think the kids are using the mother of all cuss words when the adults aren't around, then you've really got your head in the sand.

They're trying to test boundries, they are trying to "be cool". They KNOW they can't get away with outright vulgarity, so they sub in words.

To suggest that a scout must abstain b/c it might offend someone and a "scout is courteous" is crazy. In this day and age, you pretty much can't open your mouth or state an opinion without the possibility of someone being "offended". The issue is IF it offends, the scout(s) are asked to refrain, and they ignore the request. THAT shows a lack of respect.

Case in point. My 8 y/o Wolf cub and a couple of his buddies were getting into trouble for using the word 'butt'. You know, butthead, buttuski, kick your butt.... any reason to say the word b/c it would get a rise out of the adults. So, we told them to knock it off. Now they have their own 'code' word - RANDIO which equals 'butt'.

So now its randio-head, I'll kick your randio, you smell like randio, etc.... everyone KNOWS what the heck it means. But, how do you stop your kid from saying a made-up word? They can say it at the grocery store in front of a stranger and the stranger has no idea what they are talking about - they just look like crazy kids speaking in tounge.

What if they all decided to say 'far-from-poopin' instead of 'fricking'. Is that word now off limits as well? As long as its amongst their friends and not directed towards others outside the group (i.e. adults, parents, teachers, grandparents)... what's the harm? They are trying to have an independent identity and part of that is their own language.

Should they use it in church? No. In the classroom at school? No. With other adults? No. Amongst their peers and on the playground and at the mall.... newsflash - they're already using the other F-bomb, so be happy they are willing to censor it down to PG-13 level.

I'd agree its the "burned out w/ the job" and "burned out w/ dealing with other kids' parents", not burned out with dealing with the kids.

Mostly, its burned out by 4 other adults that will come up AFTER an event and give you feedback on what SHOULD / COULD have happened or been done differently, but when the planning meeting took place, its that same core of 5 to 8 adults that make everything happen that show up and plan and execute the event.

I've gotten by so far with my standard reply of, "Thanks for the input. You know, we're always looking for volunteers to head up the sub-committee for x,y,z event next year, can I put you down?" If the backpeddling starts, then I discuount any criticism. If they say "sure, I've love to help.", then I definately want to listen to what they have to say. I'm waiting for the day one of says, "I think I could do a pretty good job as CM, let me give it a try next year....".

Biggest problem I see - most other youth activities are dumping grounds. Sports, music, dance, theatre, Karate, etc... you take the kid to the practice, lesson, game... you sip your Starbucks on the sidline and you cheer Jr. on. In scouts (especially Tigers and somewhat in Wolves / Bears) we EXPECT participation from the adult partner(s).

Sadly, a majority of parents are looking for a "break" from their parenting duties and will happily PAY to get that break.

I actually had a father on our last campout say to me, "I have to pay for camping, AND help out either cooking or cleaning up?" Duhhh.... No, the $15 a head buys the food AND a dedicated cook team for the weekend, Einstien.

The only burn-out I have is I ALWAYS see the exact same faces at the planning meetings. Everyone wants a quality program. Most will throw money at it to try and buy the quality. Very few will put in the elbow grease to ensure there is quality. I count those who put in the elbow grease as very close friends and extremely good parents.

I will have to respectfully disagree w/ Jet on this one. I DO agree that too many times it becomes a 'dad' built car with little input from the scout.

However, the goal is for the adult and scout to spend time together, the scout to LEARN some things about drag, friction, woodworking, painting, etc... and to have fun with it.

If the 'adult' is only allowed to touch the car w/ their hands, then very few (if any) of the Tiger's and Wolves cars would even get across the finish line. Not much fun for the boys.

OK - off the soapbox and on to the tech questions...

1) Finish on the car should not have influenced the timing lights. One way to tell would be to call a "time-out" and test out both lanes with non-competing cars to make sure both lane lights were functioning correctly. If they are and the "suspect" car won, then let it win. If you are going to over-ride your electronic timers, then you should be video taping the finish line and be able to play-back in a frame-by-frame method. Otherwise, why bother setting up an electric timing system? Most of our pack's cars ran in the area of 3.7 secs on a 50ft track. That translates to just under 10 mph (actual average speed) for most cars. That doesn't seem like much until you're trying to watch 4 cars all under 7 inches long moving that fast. Hard to do with the naked eye.

2) Unless your rules sheet specifically states that the car must be constructed out of the block in the kit, then you really don't need to worry about the wood.

IF? they baked it prior to building (which some people do - and I/we have done to prevent warping due to moisture loss) - then YES the pinewood will take on a slightly darker tone. The hotter and longer its baked the darker it will likely be.

Bottom line - machining of axles / wheels, and weight are the TWO largest factors in the speed of a car. Camber (the alignment / 'wiggle' in the wheels) is the 3rd factor. Aerodynamics runs a very distant 4th in determining speed.

If the car meets size specs, is within weight, and doesn't have CNC machined or automated-lathe wheels and axles, it likely doesn't have an unfair advantage. Wheel running surfaces should not be rounded, but can be sanded to remove burs. Tread width should not be thinned or reduced in any manner. (Our pack and council rules state that the little nubs on the outer wall circumfrence of the wheel must still be visible, or else the wheel has been 'shaped' too much)

Type of wood used would have very little to no bearing on performance and should not be used as a reason to suspect or DQ a car in my book.

DeanRx

Yeah ! another example of a well intended rule mucking things up when interpreted incorrectly.

YPG states that you must practice 2-deep leadership on any OUTING. This means a minimum of TWO trained adults on any unit outing.

YPG also states that there should be no one-on-one contact between adults and scouts (unless the scout is your son). So, as long as the Venturing Crewmember has more than one scout in their group, what is the big deal?

YPG doesn't even state that an adult cannot GO into a scout's tent. It states that no adult and scout may SLEEP in the same tent. Not that I would recommend putting yourself in a situation to be accused of anything inappropriate, but far too many folks automatically take YPG to the witch-hunt level.

Heck - I can drive another person's cubbie home from a Den meeting (as long as I have my son in the car with me).

I say, have a heart to heart w/ the SM again and bring in a district rep if needed. Brief the Venturer's on being YPG compliant while conducting the event and provide 'roving' adults to insure overall safety of the scouts and the event.

Then go HAVE FUN with it for Pete's sake. Its the YPG Nazi's that take all the FUN out of Scouting.

Its really a simple case of they are either a part of the pack, or they are not.

I would go above and beyond to make sure they are invited and welcomed to the B&G, if they choose not to show, then thats on them.

However, I would also have the committee (the majority of the adult leadership in the pack), make it known that just because someone disagrees with a majority decision, that they don't have authority to usurp the cohesion of the pack.

Invite them, make no big deal if they show or don't show. Let them know ahead of time that if they choose to hold their OWN B&G, the pack committee will not endorse it, thus it is NOT a pack function and will not be funded by the pack.

Then invite them to start their OWN pack if they feel this strongly about the issue.

I'm not one to want to draw a line in the sand, but if a stand alone B&G is allowed, then what next? Den camping (not allowed in BSA regs - unless its Webelos). Do they get to have their own stand alone Pinewood Derby? Its an issue of unit cohesion. They are either part of the pack and "help the pack go", or they are their own pack - at which point they need to step up w/ adult leaders, find their own CO, and submit paperwork to council to start a new unit.

I suspect they'll be hard pressed to find enough adults in that one den to step up and assume leadership responsibilities in a new pack. If they do, then good for them - maybe its time for a new pack. Otherwise, it may help them understand WHY a pack is a pack and the Dens are not bigger or more important than the whole unit.

We have a 4 lane track w/ auto timers and it hooks into a laptop propram that shows a bracket from fastest to slowest times for the day.

Each scout runs a minimum of 4 races, one on each lane. This accounts for any lane bias in the track.

Then the 4 fastest cars from each Den (7 dens) run again - (4 races once in each lane), to determine 1st, 2nd, 3rd per Den.

Then the winner of each den moves on to the 'super heats' that pars them down to the 4 fastest cars in the pack.

The 4 fastest in the pack run another 4 races to determine overall pack speed champ.

Its easy to track b/c of our software and running each car in each lane takes out any lane bais or track anomalies.

To me brackets are hard b/c if you loose the 1st race and then loose your second (even if your heats were full of fast cars), your racing day is over. Plus, you need to try and account for lane bias in your track - every track has it and evertime we put ours together, it seems the bias changes from one lane to another.

Just my thoughts on it.

Thanks for all the discussion folks... and for not over villifying my very honest description of what I have engaged in (or seen) on a couple of outings. Not saying it has to happen, or that I will or won't in the future.

I'm really interested (especially about the vice type issues), b/c I guess when I was a scout - it was almost a given or a right-of-passage, to be sent off on a snipe hunt at least one night of the campout with one or two adult leaders (sometimes without any adult supervision).

All the other adults would sit around the campfire, have their one to two cups of spiked hot chocolate and / or a cigar/cigarette, and be finished (or at least quickly toss it in the fire) as the "hunting" scouts returned.

Maybe because as an adult I now imbibe on occasion and even more rarely smoke a stoggie - this had some terrible effect on me as a youth. More than likely, I don't think it really mattered. I'm not THAT old yet (was a scout in the 80's). Even then it was taught and understood by both adults and kids that there are certain things adults can do and kids can't do them. Is it a hypocritical? Yep. Is it ture? Yes, it is. Do adults OWE youth an explaination b/c of this double standard? Nope.

Choosing to responsibly drink an alcoholic beverage or smoke are two of those things.

If anything - the restraint and good judgement modeled and SHOWN by those adults I was surrounded by TAUGHT me as I grew up HOW to be responsible with such adult decisions. I fear in a zero tolerance society (which we live in with many things these days - not just @ scouting functions), children, tweens, teens - MISS the opportunity to see how RESPONSIBLE adults CHOOSE to act when enjoying such "vices". Thus, they grow up with it being a taboo, a mistery, and once they are confronted with it as an adult, they have no learned set of coping skills to make responsible, adult decisions.

Now - I'm not suggesting that we should have a smoking and drinking merit badge. But, I don't think it does much harm (and may even does some good) for kids of scout age to see correct behavoir modeled with such substances. We can debate the merit of the BSA lawyers either being correct in their guidance, or just wanting to cover the organization's backside.

Its in bold type in the G2SS that paintball is not allowed. I know several Troops in our area that do it (as a troop), but as an unoffical and non-BSA / Troop event. I guess the details are that if a scout gets injured, BSA is nowhere on the line for the treatment costs.

I've been to multiple district / council events (with pros and vols in full uniform), some even with scouts from Troops serving as hosts, foodservers, etc... in which people were not encouraged, but certain were allowed to have a cocktail.

Also - Guess I need to add a "medicine bag" shakedown to all participants at future campouts. I know some of the adults are on OTC pain meds for joint aches / etc... a couple I know for a fact are on precription strength pain relievers, some are controlled substances (as they've asked me about them b/c of my line of work). Should I tell them they have to camp without their pain meds? Its in violation of G2SS.

I agree w/ Beevah and Backwoods - I think its easy to tell when someone is WAY over the line. Its very hard to tell when they are flirting with the line. Its even harder to figure out HOW or WHEN its time for the unit leadership to step up and ask someone to sit-out or outright leave b/c of their transgression.

Guess its kinda like congress trying to define obscenity. "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it"

I really just am into this thread for the acedemic persuit of it. That, and I marvel at after taking over as CM, how many times, from how many different avenues I or the CC has been approached by one adult, regarding something another adult did or didn't do and how we, or I, or the committee needs to address it with the offending individual.

If anyone ever said anything to me about a sip at a campout - thats it. I'm done, I'll never bring it again. I don't have to have it and its not worth causing trouble in the unit. But, on the same token - I've been asked to address smoking with one adult in view of scouts and he outright told me that he didn't feel it was a big deal and would continue to smoke when he felt the need.

I didn't feel it was worth making a scene over (kinda like the Robbin Williams DVD), and ultimately not worth loosing a good volunteer over a habit he's had long before scouts and one he'll have long after. If his wife, doctor, etc... has had no luck getting him to curb it, I sure don't stand much of a chance at it.

I've decided my break point is: 1) if and when it causes an unsafe enviornment for the scouts 2) if its illegal and 3) if it detracts from the good spirit and harmony of the unit. If it interfere's with one of these, then I'll take action. Otherwise - I focus on the program and the boys and leave the adult "bickerring" to the so-called 'adults' standing on the sidelines discussing it.

OK - I understand folks point with regards to being in charge of other people's children. Guess, I haven't gotten to that point as in Cubbies, its all family camping, and while I (and other adult leaders) do plan and run the program, the scouts are 'technicially' in the control of their parents.

I'm not talking about getting drunk, or even getting tipsy. I find it somewhat offending that someone suggested I had to "get buzzed" to decide if I wanted to be a CM. Nothing is further from the truth. It was post Pinewood Derby, I helped the old CM and one other guy load up the track and put it back in the storage locker. Then they said (out of uniform), hey lets go get a cold one, I want to talk with you about future leadership in the pack...

As for the idea that ONE drink is OK, therefore ONE joint is OK. Well now - even I can understand that ONE is legal for adults to consume, the other is not. So, I don't really see the logic there.

I do understand WHY some folks would be upset if ANY alcohol was brought along on an outing. Its not a matter of not being able to go without. Its a matter of being a responsible adult and making my own decisions when I'm in the great outdoors.

My overall point is - I don't always do it. Have I in the past? YES - Have I ever gotten out of control? No. Did it put anyone at risk? No. Would I make a big deal out of it if another parent shows up at a campout with booze? As long as its out of sight, out of mind and they are not getting drunk and not providing it to youth - I have no problem with it.

To me - its kinda like two married adults having sex in their tent on a campout.

Its only an issue IF and WHEN other campers know that its going on. Its only an issue if youth is involved. Other than that, its nobody's business. (Heck - I'd say the same for two UNmarried people having sex, but that a whole other topic to post on).

I've been to council functions (both with and without scouts present) and have observed drinking by pros and volunteers alike (both in and out of uniform). Did anyone get drunk? Not that I could tell. Did anyone get out of hand? No.

As for the idea that everyone should have a BAC of zero in case a scout needs to go to the ER in the middle of the night... 1) WHY would that happen? 2) BAC of zero is not what is legally required to drive. I can attest that I have NEVER been anywhere near the threshold of DUI when on a scout function and could (if needed) act in the same responsible manner as if I'd sipped tea in the evening.

Yeah- I got clarification from council late Friday. They just want everyone to be in the know and have the press release to give out IF someone requests additional information.

They backed of the contacting of consumers who purchased it.

Funny though - the Weaver press release had specific lots ID'd, and when I asked, our council stated that they hadn't been told if these specific lots actually shipped to our council or not !! Would have been the 1st thing I'd asked if I was a pro @ council. Plus, what good is it for a company to put lot numbers on their products if they cannot quickly and accurately TRACK to whom a cretain lot ships ?!?!? Isn't that knid of the point to having a lot number in the first place?

I agree it slikely being over careful - but geeesh... glad it didn't REALLY need to be recalled...

OK - so the prejudice against gays / atheist was somewhat tounge-in-cheek. However, one can be prejudice without endorsing hate (as one other poster tried to equate the two). Some might even suggest that the simple idea of exclusion based on sexual orientation or creed (or lack thereof) IS the definition of a prejudice.

I agree that all the things I listed, if done consistently and in a manner to provoke unscoutlike behavoir (especially from the scouts)or to act against the moral welfare of scouts, warrants action if not removal.

SMT22 - I find it VERY interesting that litigating with the BSA is grounds for removal. So to disagree is to be expelled? Or at least to disagree to the point of going to court = you're out. Might make some people a little gun-shy about bringing up issues with local council or national if they think they might just be asked to leave.

I find the gambling part interesting too. Maybe that's because I learned to play poker on Troop campouts and at summer camp. Nothing big, but everyone playing for candy. Heck - I played poker on my 50 miler at Northern Tier for fish hooks and bait!

I find it interesting that many say Alcohol is grounds for asking someone to leave, yet being obese or smoking is not. To me, there is a great difference in painting often in colored language, or hitting your hand with a hammer putting in tent stakes and muttering an explitive under one's breath that might be in earshot of one or two scouts.

So, a ASM, SM, CM, ACM, etc... that is grossly overwieght and cannot take on the physical challenges that the Pack or Troop engages in, yet goes on their "nightly walk" on a campout to get their nicotine fix is MORE desirable than an in shape, physically capable, non-smoker, who just so happens to "spike" his own canteen after lights out sitting around the campfire w/ other adults?

I get the offerring scouts alcohol - I would never do it. I get not glamorizing either alcohol or tobbacco to the scouts. What I don't get is the idea that a couple (or 4) dads, sitting around the campfire after the scouts are in the tents (and the adults have worked hard all day) having 1 drink a piece and making sure it is NEVER seen by the scouts and the "evidence" (in the form of cans / bottle / flask) is packed back out - not left in the camp dumpster. What's the big deal?

Someone offering alcohol to scouts, or showing up drunk to a BSA function... they have bigger problems than being banned from BSA.

But ONE drink among adults... heck - its how I got talked into being cubmaster. I close deals in business all the time over dinner and a drink. Its an integral part of male bonding for a vast majority of men. You plan something together, you work hard at it, you raise your kid and spend time with him, then when they're in bed, you have a drink with your friends and celebrate / reflect on your day. Its as American as mom, baseball, adn Apple Pie.

Yet - there seems in the responses, a more open tolerance towards smoking - even when the health effects of tobacco are far worse than very moderate intake of alcohol.

Interesting discussion...

BTW - not being in an LDS unit - I've always wondered WHAT they do drink at the Cracker Barrels.... I thought bad coffee was a right of passage for BSA leaders. Guess there's always bad decaf? Don't get me wrong, I think the LDS has saved BSA and given more to it than detracted. If it wasn't for LDS - the majority of our adult meetings and trainings either wouldn't have a place to happen, or would cost considerably more - to rent space. With that said - I was taken aback some when I signed up for my 1st training ever and the flyer had on it, "Please do not bring any caffinated beverages to the training." I thought it odd - but hey - when in Rome, do as the Romans... (guess that would be for the Knights of Colombus Catholic units).

The point I was trying to make (and get feedback on) - is where is YOUR personal break point? At what point would you call out another adult leader and say, "either knock off that behavoir, or I'm going to take it up w/ the CC and committee..."

Hypothetical or real world answers...they are all good "what if's"...

So far - I like Beavah's best of all, "As I've gotten grayer, I admit I wish units were quicker on da trigger for one particular type of adult. I think units should be faster about removin' disruptive/contentious adults who don't play well with others."

So far... not too bad. Things cost more and we won't be moving anytime soon (not that we had planned to)- couldn't sell the house for what we bought it for.

Both me and wife are in healthcare - so as long as the state and fed governments keep reimbursing (they have to - right?), we'll do O.K. If anything, I've seen an uptick in the past 12 months. Maybe its the start of the boomers beginning to draw on their Soc Security and Medicare bene's while they still have some left?

Major purchases have been scaled back, not eating out or traveling as much. Fancy vacation will likely be replaced by camping in a national park (not a bad trade in my view).

401K is non-existent, but I still contribute every payday. I still have 25 years before I'll be drawing on it, so I figure its GOT to come back (or the whole world is in deep crap). Dollar-cost-averaging should work in my favor over the long haul, right? I've either lost my savings, OR I have a chance to pick up the funds I was investing in before at rock bottom prices. Its only a loss if you sell right now.

I pity my parents. Don't know if the market will recover in time for them to make it back. I think its going to hit a LOT of people in their generation pretty dang hard.

Overall - I can't complain. Very blessed to be in my field and have a job. Funny - 4 years ago, I was envious of the earnings my friends in real-estate and finance had. Now, I'm gald I wasn't on the same boat!

This is spun from the "leaders smoking at a campout" thread.

Let me pose this to the group... WHAT do you consider the cut-off for a leader? At what point would you HONESTLY think about asking an adult volunteer to no longer volunteer? (or make it an issue with the unit committee to the point they'd be asked to step down)

I ask, because I suspect its at a very different level for most everyone.

The G2SS places some very BIG expectations on leaders. There are some things (YPG for example) that are black and white. There are others (smoking at a campout) that are more open to interpretation.

Should a leader be asked to step down:

If they smoke around the scouts?

If they are obese?

If they use occasional foul language?

What if they espouse a prejudical view? (as long as its against atheists or gays - BSa is probably OK with it - I'd guess)

If they add a little "tonic" to their hot chocolate at a campfire?

Are they involved in / or had in the past, an adulterous relationship?

What if their profession is borderline on the morality scale?

- I know scout parents / leaders that work for casinos

- I know of scout parents that own bars / distribute liquor

- I know scout leaders who sell tobacco products / own a 'cigar bar'

- Some distribute caffinated beverages (gasp)...

- Some are even in government

- Some are LAWYERS.... Ewwwwww !!!

Why do I ask this?

Because as a youth in Scouts, at one time or another - I had a leader that fit into everyone of these groups.

Is it not the CONTEXT of their indiscretion that carries the wieght? Or is it simply the act itself. Personally, I view the high moral values espoused by scouting to be much like those supported in the Bible. They are very nice ideals and we should all strive for them. However, very few of us will make it our entire adult lives living up to the standard that is set. Again, much like the Bible, I'd let those without 'sin' cast the 1st stone.

Unfortunately - there are far too many of us (myself included on occasion) that are all too willing to throw that 1st rock, without contemplating: 1) what our own behavoirs project to the youth and 2) whether the youth served will actually be better off if we make an issue out of a one time (or very infrequent) episode.

Received a press release via my CC, via the council's popcorn "general" regarding a voluntary recall of the 9.5 oz Trails End Caramel Corn, because of a possible link on some batches to the Peanut Corp. of America's nationwide recall due to potential Salmonella contamination.

Anyone on the forums have additional information?

I am planning on calling my council office and Trails End tomorrow to get more info and guidance. The e-mail from our council popcorn chair "recommends" passing along the press release to anyone that we sold the 9.5 oz product to. Heck, we can do that for individual sales, but almost 50% of our sales were show-n-sell in front of local retailers!! We have no idea who bought from us- they paid, we handed them product - its gone!

Seems to me, this shoud be a manufacturer's recall issue and at worst an issue for BSA national or council to address to the buying public. Why would they want the local units to try and contact people?

Anyone getting any info from their local councils?

Link to the Press Release is below:

http://www.trails-end.com/TEPublic/docs/WPC_Press_Release_4Feb2009.pdf

Any additional info would be appreciated.

YiS,

DeanRx