DeanRx

BobWhite -

I see what you mean. I agree 100% that the program (as it is intended) has been refined over many, many years (almost 100 now) and many of the issues faced today have been addressed in earlier years in other forms.

I can also understand how a seasoned scouter might be quick to become frustrated with a new adult leader who is unwilling to take advice / mentorship.

I just hope as my time goes on, I can find more of the, "Let's help each other - let me show you how this can be done in a positive way..." type of attitude and less of the, "Gee, another newbie that doesn't know the proper terms, the proper regs, and the proper way to do this... I better step in and 'save' them.... even though its really putting me out to do so...".

Thanks for the insight and discussion - its good to look at it from angles other than my own.

Scouter760 -

Your attitude is EXACTLY the issue I am raising. First of all, I never once said I object to being submitted to a background check - I understnad WHY they have the policy, just not why its hammered on relentlessly all the time. But, thanks for questioning my personal integrity, just the same. I'm sure you know me - so you have every reason to be suspicious of me and my intentions with the youth!

Its this very type of environment I find troubling. Where we've gotten to a point in society (especially within the BSA) when if someone voices concern because of an over-zealous policy, that person must automatically have something to hide! Go back to watching Nancy Grace or Geraldo - I for one think of the adult volunteers as people who want to HELP the youth, not hurt them - but hey - I must be crazy. Salem witch hunt - anyone ?

Thanks for the unwarranted personal attack - great scout spirit, eh?

BobWhite - Again, I agree with you. The folks who have been in the program for a long time SHOULD have the most knowledge and be the ones to train the newbies.

I just feel that a good deal of the time, its not an attitude of, "I've been doing this awhile, so let me show you whats worked and what hasn't..."

A lot of the time its an attitude of, "You don't know what you're doing, you're in violation of such and such..." and a general attitude of "I'm a better scouter b/c I know this and you don't." I don't see this from the kids, but it sure is prevalent in the adult leadership. Anywhere from RT training, to BALOO, to last week when I called the council office and asked to speak to the "camping office" about an upcoming fun-w-son (used to be called Dad-&-Lad, but thats not PC anymore) weekend... instead of "Oh, thats part of the activities office, I can help you...." A PAID adult leader at council retorted, "That's not camping! You need to talk to me in activities...." As if asking for the camping office was the stupidest thing I could have asked for.

IMHO - scouting could use a LOT more, "let me help you learn..." out of the adults towards other adults, and a LOT LESS, "You can't do it that way b/c you're in violation of x,y,z...."

BTW - the guy that spun off the "What do you want from RT's?" question from this thread - has it right... upper adult leaders should be asking, "What do you need from us to support you and your Pack, Troop, Crew...?"

Basementdweller-

Are you sure we're not in the same district?

Sounds just like the RT I went to last week. The district dinner sounds about the same as well.

As far as RT goes I want a coulpe things out of it:

1) Very short announcements about upcoming events. This can be done via a one page newsletter. I don't need it read to me by some crusty old scoutmaster who's sone was an Eagle 15 years ago...

2) Have a "buffet of ideas" for program events, skits, songs, run-ons, etc... help the Packs / Troops to build their ideas for meetings. Usually one idea is sent up the flagpole, and while its a good one, it becomes the ONLY go-to item folks have. Our last RT breakout was about doing a recruitment round-up. One leader suggested a good game for the scouts was a "2-liter bottle rocket launcher...." - Hmmmmm ... we did that last year for our round-up at the urging of our CC that went to this meeting last year..... Wonder if this is the same game EVERYONE uses in our district? While its a great game, it doesn't help me add variety to our pack events.

3) Take the emphasis OFF the beads for adults. Its stupid anyways. I go to traing to get information, not so I can have a little craft bead to add to my "leader's necklace". We have FAR too many adults trying to re-live their youth it seems.

The one thing our distric DOES do well - is the RT Helps. I don't know if this is published by council or national, but its a very good booklet of ideas, songs, skits, etc... that tie into the next month's theme. Its the best part of the RT IMHO. Good thing they only give it out there, b/c if I could get my hands on it without going, I wouldn't have a need to attend.

Ok... looks like I started a little tempest here...

BobWhite - you are correct and I agree with you that the BSA program is not the hinderance. Followed correctly and in the correct spirit, it is a time tested and enjoyable program.

However - my beef is specifically with the INTERPRETAION of many (to include many of the PAID adult leaders in council and district positions) that cause a hyper-vigilant attitude.

In my expiriences thus far, that hyder-vigilant attitude pertains to three areas in particular:

1) YPG. Because of the sins of the past - it has run amok in BSA now. Sorry if I seem old fashioned, but I disagree with having a discussion with Tigers or Wolves about child molestation! Yet there is some very frank talk the BSA video series relating to this topic, and YES - BSA strongly recommends sharing these videos with packs (to include youth)at least once a year! That's overkill and sends a "fear everyone" message to BOTH the youths and the parents of the program. But-at least BSA won't get sued and they can keep a lid on their insurance premiums...

2) The overboard PC crap that has eliminated the majority of the "old" skits and songs you can perform. You can't have scouts dress up like girls, can't make fun of adults, can't change the lyrics to patriotic songs... Part of the "fun" in scouts (heck in being a boy and bonding with other boys) is being able to do something that is a little off-color, in good humor. Its not malicous and its not meant to single out anyone. Prime example: One training this summer, the instructor was "corrected" by a member of the audience for calling his visual aids a "flip chart" ?!?!? Can't do that - "flip" is a derogatory term for a person of Philopino decent? OK - new to me.... but GOD forbid we might offend someone.

Which leads me to point #3...

3) There seems to be a pervasive subculture in BSA (often perpetuated by the PAID adult leaders and thus taken as endorsed by BSA) of an attitude of, "I'll demonstrate my excellent knowledge, and thus my importantance / status within the group by reciting as many rules and regulations as possible and pointing out to the 'lesser' scouters when they are WRONG, thereby ensuring my place as the top scout b/c I know the regs better than anyone else...."

Sorry if I offend any of the "older" scouters on the forums, but in my expirience #3 becomes more pronouned the LONGER you have been in scouting and the higher up the food chain you go.

The ironic piece is that if you actually ASK someone to SHOW you where in a BSA publication this "rule" is actually stated, the majoirty of the time, they can't come up with it, or it is an off-shoot of a very broad regualtion and has been cemented as so by the indivual's own INTERPRETATION of the "rules".

So BobWhite - I do agree that it is the INDIVIDUAL that causes this perception. The problem is when the INDIVIDUAL is a person of status and/or a paid adult leader within the program, then the PERCEPTION by those new to the program can be that such an attitude is ENDORSED by the program and BSA.

Thank you all for your input - especially Calico's at the end.

I was a bit harsh as I was VERY frustrated last night and it was later than I normally stay up. Probably should have slept on it one night and then posted.

My overall point (societial changes aside)...

Is that since I have become involved with scouting as an adult leader, there seems to be a pervasive "Thou shall not...." attitude in ALL trainings I've attended.

I go to get trained for 2 reasons and in order of importance:

1) So that I can provide a better program for the scouts.

2) So that I can have the correct "boxes" checked so that our pack doesn't miss out on an opportunity b/c someone doesn't have BALOO, SSD, CPR, etc... It also keeps the district trainer off my back (Yeah !)

In all honesty, I see the majority of the training accomplishing #2 on my list. But, when the list of "You used to be able to do x,y,z... but now you can't".... is longer than "These are things we've done and it worked well..."

Then I just don't get much from it and I am becoming jaded by the process.

Like Calico stated. Stop telling what I can't do - start giving me FUN ideas that we CAN do !!

As for those that took some of my examples quite literally, I do not yell at boys, I hardly ever touch anyone and I certainly do not "punish" them. Ours is a positive reinforcement type of Pack. All in all its a great pack and I'm gald and proud to be part of it. Its actually great fun !

Then I go to a council training and it becomes a "Be on the lookout for...." I mean - I've done YPG twice in one year, have the "It could happen to me" video shoved down my throat, etc...

My point is this: YES - we as leaders have to be aware of these things. YES - we need to protect the scouts and ourselves from being placed in situations in which inappropriate behavior could take place. HOWEVER - it should NOT be the HUGE cloud hanging over every training and event that it is !!

A couple more small examples that just make me want to throw up my hands and scream UNCLE...

EXAMPLE ONE -

At the last council Scout Fair. I'm walking past an OA booth w/ my son and two other cubs (tigers and wolves) from our Pack. My son points our that I was in OA (he can't wait until he's eligible even though he has a LONG way to go yet...). I figure we'll stop and talk and get the cubbies a little lesson in what OA is all about.

So the adult leader and two OA scouts see my old OA patch on my uniform (I wear it as a conversation piece for the cubs). They ask if I'm still active. When I tell them its from an OA back in the midwest and that I was "tapped out" so long ago, I don't even know if my chapter is still active - There was a physical RECOIL from the scouts.

I was then told in hushed tones by the adult leader that, "Its not appropriate to 'tap-out' anymore, in fact we don't call it that..." quickly followed by the regulation that I should not be wearing it b/c I'm not ACTIVE in that lodge any longer.

My attempt to peak some young scout's interest in something beyond cubbing was quickly turned into a reading of the OA regulation RIOT act from the OA adult leader!

EXAMPLE TWO - At a family pack campout... We had 2 cubbies that needed to use the latrine as dusk. Everyone else was getting ready for the campfire - I offered to walk them (about 200 yards across an open field) to the port-a-john's. I was going to wait OUTSIDE for them and walk them back.

Well the two boys dang near peed down their leg while a couple of LEADERS got into a discussion about TWO-DEEP leadership needed to walk these guys to the bathroom !! Come on.. the kicker was both of these scouts have stayed the night in MY home with my son at sleep-overs. Not like I'm not trusted by their parents.

That's what I mean by being frustrated by it. It seems to me BSA has now fostered an environment of Hyper-vigilance in which ALL adults must be met with suspect until proven otherwise.

I work around it and I love doing scouting so I'll stick w/ it.

Doesn't mean that I have to like it.

Doesn't mean that I won't work towards trying to inject some common sense into the mess either.

Dean

OK - so two back to back posts - and I admit its late, I'm tired and feeling a little less than positive at this point...

Is it just me, or has this actually happened?

In the 15-20 odd years between my last acts as an active scout and my entrance as a leader, it seems the organization has lost a good amount of the "adventure" portion that BP intended. The list of activities a cub can engage in is shorter than the list they can NOT do. Look at the G2SS - its FULL of DON'Ts.

We preach things like self-reliance, self-discipline, honesty, and character to these boys, but everything in the training I am forced to take (most of which is redundant from Tiger Leader Specific, to Den leader specific, to BALOO, to CM specific) focuses primarily on what NOT to do and what the cub scouts CAN NOT do! It is CYA (cover-your-*ss) training. Don't put yourself or BSA in a position to even THINK about being accused of something or at fault for negligence...

I understand safety. I've led men in the Army into harmful situations and brought them all back. I understand the need for YPG. Thanks to the acts of a few - the many must not be trusted and are always suspect. Been there - got the badge (or pocket card and "trained" strip). Frankly it pisses me off to have my integrity questioned because of the SINS (and I do mean that in biblical terms) of a few sickos that abused their status in the organization to prey on boys. I have to have certain forms signed before I can buy rank for my scouts at the scout-shop.... so much for promoting honesty... who would want to wear an award they hadn't earned anyways?

I'm just sick of going to trainings and meetings and hearing all the "you used to be able to do this skit.... but not anymore." "You used to be able to sing this song, but now its offensive...." "You can't TOUCH the boy scout" "You can't discipline the scout...."

Now, don't get me wrong - I do NOT condone crossing any boundries. I would never strike a scout. In fact I use the 2/3 rule. Anything I would do to my own child (praise or admonishment), I will only do 2/3 of the way to another scout.

BUT - as a leader, if a scout is out of line we are supposed to teach them to get back IN LINE. I'm not talking corporal punishment, but a hand on the shoulder and a low stern voice works wonders with a 8 year old. So does making them run a lap... BUT Nooooo - you must not discipline someone else's child!! The only tool at your disposal is to threaten to tell "johnny" that he can't participate? There's a recipe for success with a parent.

Just the same, if the scout falls down durring a game and scrapes his knee - I am supposed to think about the possible LAWSUIT for inappropriate behavoir before I inspect the knee and give the kid a "shoulder" hug and tell him, "Its OK - we'll get it washed and you'll be just fine..."

Between these types of senerios and the ever pressent PC censorship of songs, skits, etc.... not to mention the "openness" of the OA I once held as a sacred organization I was "tapped out" into (was told that is no longer an appropriate term - even if you don't really "tap-out"). The scouts of today are a far cry from the organization I remember as a boy... wonder if my father felt the same way as an adult leader with me in the 70's and 80's?

So far - what I see in the "management" of scouting is not leadership. It can best be described as paranoid mitigation of risk. Its the same mindset that has led to zero tolerance of drugs on school grounds, resulting in a teenage girl with cramps getting suspended for taking a friend's Midol - just so the administrators and their lawyers don't actually have to employ REASON and LOGIC to a situation on a case-by-case basis or actually do their job and DEFEND the position based on a case-by-case basis.

I know I'm on a little (ok BIG) rant, but after the roundtable I went to tonight - I truely wonder if the adult leadership that is supposed to be guiding these yougn men to become strong, independent, leaders is in fact churning out whimpy, passifists - that will never really know the true meaning of being a scout as BP envisioned? Every meeting I walk out of, I think of people like BP, John Muir, and Teddy Roosevelt spinning in their graves...

Thanks for letting me vent a little...

Dean

OK - so its time for the salesman in all scouts to be "born again"...

I have a question resulting from an issue last year in our Pack. Like many packs, we do a "show-and-sell" weekend to kick off the popcorn sales.

This is done at storefronts (with store owner permission - of course) and we file local tour permits for each location (pack sponsored event / etc...)

Now - last year after the initial show-n-sell a couple of cubs got together and did their OWN selling in front of a local supermarket. They HAD approval from the store manager. However, some on our committee got bent out of shape because: 1) They didn't file a tour permit and 2) They didn't have a registered adult leader with them (only their parents which are not registered w/ the pack).

My thought on this is: SO WHAT ?!?

A scout doesn't have to have a REGISTERED adult leader with them if they sell door-to-door and certainly is not required to file a tour permit for door-to-door sales, so how is this different?

Two scouts working together is NOT a Pack sponsored event and they DID get permission from the store.

Good for them - they made more sales - they were imaginative in their marketing - and they used teamwork to accomplish a task.

Am I missing something here? As the new CM, I have been asked to make it known that this is NOT approved by the pack. My response is, "Why would I want to hinder a scout selling popcorn ?" Is there some other "rule" out there that I am unaware of, or is this a beef on behalf of a couple committee members that weren't "consulted" for approval before the kids went and sold like this?

Just to remove any doubt, no my son was not involved in this. And no, while both of these scouts had solid sales, neither was the top seller for the pack.

Any insight would be appreciated.

YiS,

DeanRx

First - sorry for your loss...it does make you wonder about someone that would rip off the scouts. Alas, these are the wrongs we are trying to "right" in our scout activities.

I totally agree with Gern about the media coverage...

I know of a Pack that lost all their gear in a fire at the storage facility where they rented a garage. It took a press release in the local paper (be sure to coordinate / get OK from your local council) and the outpouring of donations swamped them. They had to actually tell some donors, thanks, but no thanks b/c they would have wound up with more stuff than they could keep in their starage facility.

Also - make sure that the local sporting goods stores know of your loss (the ones that the scout families patronize). You'll be surprized at the donations you'll get from the retailers. At the very least many will offer to sell you replacement equipment at their cost. Then all you need is donations or a pancake breakfast to raise the $$ to re-buy.

I use the "we're the local scout pack" approach all the time at Lowe's and Sports Chalet. Even without a loss of equipment, both places regularly offer to let us buy gear at cost or very little mark-up. We regularly get plants from Lowe's for free to do our community service projects. Their only request is that when the local paper shows up to get a snapshot of "scouts in action", I make sure and let the fine readers know WHO donated the plants, work gloves and shovels for the task.

They KNOW your families pump $$ into their stores and are usually pretty eager to help make things afordable...

I might be speaking out of turn as I am still involved at the cub level, but did a good amount of pioneering in my scout days. I have also seen (and my son has participated on) several pioneering structures at council sponsored events...

1) The G2SS is just that - a GUIDE !! While it gives great info, common sense and prudent saftey must rule the day. This is a direct quote to me on several occasions from my DE ! Just because you built something to G2SS protocol doesn't absolve the adults from providing oversight, discipline and saftey.

2) I was ALWAYS taught that ANY structure over 6 ft in height must be secured to the ground at its base (either by sinking the pole ends into earth or tethering to weight blocks) and that it should have guidelines in a minimum or 3 directions (better if 4) to stabilize it.

3) As a scout, one of the "bigger" adults was always the test dummy for any structure before a scout was allowed on it. Better to have an adult fall than a scout was the thinking... plus if it can hold the "fat dad" it can probably take anything a scout can dish out.

Now that I've said these things - at a recent council level event last spring, I saw 3 tiered towers, untethered. I saw rope bridges that were over 6 ft high. And, I saw structures I'm certain would have collapsed if anyone over 150 pounds set foot on them.

They were allowing cubbies to climb on these items! I let MY son do it too... WHY?

BECAUSE THERE WAS EXTRAORDINARY SAFETY PRECAUTIONS !! The 3 level tower had railings all the way up, had gymnastics mats under and around the base, and cubbies were encouraged to get fitted into a harness and "clip in" when reaching the top. The rope bridge, while high off the ground (walking rope was at about 8 ft over asphalt), had safety netting strung underneath the entry and exit points. They had adult safety personel stationed about every 5 feet for the entire length of the bridge and they allowed only 2 scouts on the bridge at a time (one on each span - never both on the same span @ the same time). May I also add that the anchor points were the trailer hitches of two 20ft box trucks.... not figure 8 with 3 stakes.

My point is - you can work under, over, around the G2SS (somewhat) as long as you mitigate the risk with appropriate safety and supervision. Its the oversight (or lack thereof) that makes the activity safe or dangerous....

Hello all-

Yes. I am that person who stood still while everyone else took one step backwards

I'm an old scout by my son's standard (but he's just 7). Was active as a boy and now leading a new generation in the adventure.

I began as a Tiger Den Leader last year and somehow now find myself as the Cubmaster of a very active and growing Pack.

Its hectic, its fun, its exhausting and I wouldn't trade it for the world. The kids are the best, the adults in our pack are exceptional and we marvel at how much our boys grow in a supportive family scout environment.

Hopefully, I'll be able to use the forums to get new ideas, solve challenges, and maybe give out a few pearls of wisdom along the way...

Thanks,

Dean

Hey -

I'm new to teh forums, so might as well just in the deep end with both feet !!

Anyways, am I the only scouter that felt a twinge of "that's not right" when their son received the latest issue (Sept 08) of Boys Life? Tom Brady and "Almost Perfect" on the cover...

Now, I will not begrudge the fact that Mr. Brady is an outstanding athelete, he's one of the best QB's to ever lace up cleats. But I have a couple issues with BL using him on the cover.

First - Given his off-field romances and out-of-wedlock fathering of a child, is he REALLY the type of role model BL and BSA should be holding up as a "poster boy" of perfection?

Second - Given the NFL's "investigation" into the Patriot's "vidoetaping" scandle the past 2 seasons, not only does Mr. Brady make poor personal choices, he is employed and endorses a company (the NE Pats) that are of suspect ethics in their industry.

Finally - the whole "Almost Perfect" title... Really, is that what we want our kids' standard to be?

Even if I can get past the moral and ethical issues surrounding Mr. Brady's personal and professional choices. Are we raising kids to think that performing at the highest level of their profession for nearly a decade, winning multiple championships, MVP's / etc... yet having ONE big loss in that timeframe makes you just "almost perfect"?

That's like telling adolescent girls that they look fat! They get that type of negative feedback far too often in society. Boys get it in the form of, "You had a great season, except for the one loss...."

I don't know if I'm more disappointed about BL's poor choice of a role model OR the fact that once they decided to run with the story, they emphasize the ONE failure on the cover instead of focusing on the multitude of atheltic success this man has attained.

I wrote a letter to the editor at BL and have yet to hear any response. For the most part BL is a GREAT magazine and they publish GREAT articles. But I feel the followed up poor judgement (in choosing the subject) with a lackluster spin (even HE's not perfect)on this one.

Any feedback from the group would be most welcome.

Thanks,

DeanRx