DeanRx

Just look for items (even from multiple achievements) that you can group into one event / outing.

The goal is to be out doing stuff as a Pack, Den, and family and the achievements naturally happen as part of the fun.

If you can knock out 2 or 3 in one event, all the better.

You can encourage, but try not to push - he's got time. Besides, it does no good to push him to his Bear rank if he's burnt out and wants to drop out in Web1.

Rank Advancement is nice, but its NOT the destination - its the JOURNEY that counts in scouting. Good Luck.

YiS,

Dean

If the meeting is at MY house - water based Tempra paints.

If its at someone elses house - oil based, stains, and spar varnish are my first 3 choices...

Hee, Hee

BTW - When I paint the scouts, we use - Orange for Tigers, Yellow for Wolves, Blue for Bears, and Plaid for Webelos..... Duuuhhhhh !

A couple of things our pack has done (and still does annually):

1) Beach cleanup - if you don't have a beach, public park / trails day clean-up. Get w/ your local city Parks dept. they can help set it up and organize it. Then make sure the local PAPER knows about it. Get your kids in the community section doing something good for your city while in uniform.

2) Planted ground cover / ice plant on slopes for our grade school that we use as a meeting location. Its a win-win. Helps prevent soil errosion, plus the kids will protect it, not tear it up if they are the ones who planted it.

3) We got with a park ranger on a family pack campout and arranged to plant some native trees on the perimeter of the group camping area. State park supplied the trees (so they got what they wanted / needed) and we supplied the labor.

Hope these ideas help.

YiS,

Dean

Red Feather-

I don't know the Pine Beetle infestation area, but I'd highly recommend a couple hikes I took as a scout.

1) Easier of the two - Notch Mountain (west of Col Springs area). basecamp to summit is about a 10 miler round trip (if I remember correct). Anyways, I made it as a Tenderfoot with both parents and 8 y/o sister in tow. Its an all day hike and will get you above the tree line. Summit looks over a valley at the south face of Mt of the Holy Cross (named for the summer snow formation on the mountain's face). Good hike - leave @ 7 a.m., spend about 2 hours at summit, back at basecamp before dark. Top elevation around 12,300ft.

2) More challenging - Later in my scout career, we summitted Mt of the Holy Cross. Its a more advanced climb and should be reserved for hikers that have some expirience. A couple scary ridge runs on the way to the summit if I recall. Top elevation is just around 14K I think.

I'd have to break out the old maps to double check and I'm not sure were they are. I KNOW you can find Mt. Holy Cross on google earth, or google maps, then get the USGS quad from that.

BTW - I know St. Joe - did my undergrad at MWSC in chemistry there. Also, where I got the itch and joined up w/ ROTC. Fun times.

Hope you find a locale and hike that will meet your needs.

YiS,

Dean

The steel wool + 9vt battery

The dryer lint + flint + steel

The Magnessium filings + flint + rock

Magnifying glass + anything with a low flash point

An old sock with sterno in the toe (keep it in a ziplock until ready to use) - I've started council sized campfires in the rain using this method.

My personal favorite (because its sooo simple and everyone has it with them on a campout)....

Wood Shavings + a drop or two of hand sanitizer

I always enjoyed making my own gun-cotton (if you can get your hands on the nitric and sulfuric acid needed)...

As an aside - an old cotton shoestring dipped in parafin is a great "helper". You can cut off a 2 - 4 inch length and use it as a wick to start anything you want to be FAR AWAY from when it ignites (not that an adult scouter would ever begin a campfire with something that goes Whooooosh !!! or Boooom !)

Happy pyro everyone

I think this falls into "urban scouting myths".

I was taught as a scout two different opinions:

1) Away from the prevailing wind, so the door doesn't catch the wind and the tent will stay warmer.

2) Towards the east - so the sun will wake you if you want an early start. (assuming you have tent flaps that will be partially open) A zippered shut door fly is going to provide as much sun block as any other part of the tent.

I, as the smart a** scout (and adult) I am, then asked - "well, should the door face WEST, if I plan on sleeping in?"

In my many moons since then camping and time in the military - I can assure you.... its situational.

I would suggest not setting it up facing into the prevailing winds. It'll be colder, noisier (sp?), and you'll gather more dust and leaves into the tent that way.

Other than that - face into the rising sun if you want, or face away.

Personally, I enjoy having my entrance face towards a natural scene and away from fellow campers if at all possible. When I wake in the morning, I want to see nature. At night - If someone wants to see me and shine their flashlight into my tent, I want them to have to walk around my tent to do it - at leat then I KNOW they are trying to get my attention, not just waving their light in the dark... but hey - that's just me and my quirks...

Set it however you see fit.

Not held it yet, but had the planning meeting yesterday.

We are going to do it over a 4hr block of time on a Saturday b/c we now have 50+ scouts, plus siblings and parents that want to race.

It should be a full day of racing fun.

LtFightr - Have fun while its small. Our pack starter 4 years ago with just 6 scouts. So if you do it right - the growth will happen very fast.

YiS,

Dean

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I have trouble conducting a meeting, or paying attnetion to ANY type of training when there are scouts around.

I'm a CM and have a scout in the pack. If there are scout aged kids around, I'm constantly in "adult leader" mode. That means even when they are engaged in an activity (that I'm not in charge of or a participant in as well), I am observing to see if someone needs extra help, or someone (in particular my son) needs to be reminded to be on good behavoir, etc...

I doubt I'd be able to concentrate enough to get anything out of a training at the camp. Besides - I'm with ScoutNut - why would I pay $100+ to attend training, when really the reason I'm paying the money is so that I can go and camp with my son and have "someone else" be in charge of the planning and execution of the event for a change.

If I need training (which I am up to date on), I'll burn a Saturday of my own time and pay $25 to do it at the council offices, without the cubbie interruptions.

I think its a good concept, but probably a poor thing in reality.

Besides - resident camp is about the scouts. Just as I scoff at talking bylaws or financials in the presence of scouts (thats for adult leaders to worry about), I scoff at ADULT training at a cub focused function. We have enough adults that forget its about the boys on a regular basis - we don't need to schedule their training to purposely conflict with their "quality time" with their scout.

If there are 8-10 adults standing around "bored out of their mind" while the scouts are doing something cool, then I might suggest the adults need to engage and get involved in whatever "cool" thing the scouts are doing. Otherwise - just drop Jr. off at the camp and come pick him up in 4 days - you've already mentally checked out of his camp expirience anyways.

"Resident Camp - its about THEM - not about YOU"

(might have to get that put on a T-shirt this summer !)

Just some food for thought...

After our last Pack Campout (roughly 55 people - 23 scouts), the ONE largest thorn in the "roses and thorns" debrief was that there was very little UNSCHEDULED time for the boys.

Now, I did NOT say UNSUPERVISED, but unscheduled.

One of the joys of camping should be the notion of having the option (or even being taught to) sit on the shore of the lake and listen to the birds and the leaves as they rustle. Maybe practice skipping a stone with your buddies. Maybe a "hey wonder where this trail leads" - with an adult following at a safe distance.

Kids today are WAY more overscheduled than we ever were as children. They need to be taugh (or at least encouraged) to slow down, daydream, etc...

A mud puddle and a stick are great campout "toys".

Laying on your back and taking turns describing what each cloud in the sky looks like to you, is a great campout activity.

Poking at an ant hill with a stick, cathcing bugs, crickets (or fire-flies at night if you're in the right part of the country) - is a GREAT nature lesson.

So is cathing toads, tadpoles, or turtles.

Its those solitary, unscripted moments from youth that spawn a child's creativity. Its also when they are most likely to actually connnect with nature and thus want to protect and nurture it when they are older.

Its good to have activities, but make sure you allot some time for kids to be a kid in the outdoors. BB-guns and knots are great, but so is dragging a stick behind you in the dirt to see what kind of "snake trail" you can make.

DeanRx

LuLu-

I really don't mean to offend. The point of my post is that just because it has the label of a "father / son" (or more PC 'male role model / son') event, it is not a sexist connotation.

The POINT is to get the scout to spend some time interacting and LEARNING from a MALE role model, is it not? I'm not suggesting that one discount a scout who has a single parent family. If a mom / aunt / grandmother is the only one availible, then let them play.

However - I am strongly opposed to changing names / rules of events just because a few (one or two) families might not fit the exact mold the event describes.

One of the biggest problems in society right now is the idea that if the majority doesn't automatically adjust for the minority, then the majority must be sexist, racist, bigoted, etc... What ever happened to "When in Rome, do as the Romans do...."

Don't even get me started in the comparisions to the Girl Scouts. GS is an organization that basically looks at ANY involved male as a potential child molester until proven otherwise. BSA is WAY ahead in the gender role parity department.

The point is to have fun, have the scout do an activity with a male role model, and learn something.

If you go rewriting every pack event because someone might be offended, you're going to spend a heck of a lot of time writing rules / bylaws and very little time scouting.

Example - I had a parent complain during popcorn sales this year that their scout was at an unfair advantage for individual sales, b/c their father's employer expressly prohibits taking fundraising forms into the office (other scout parents routinely do this). Now, should I (in the interest of "fairness to everbody to the Nth degree") have restated the Pack individual popcorn rules to state that scout's parents cannot help them sell? Heck no.

From the sounds of it - you have a few boys that could USE a solid male role model in the life. For various reasons, Dad isn't much of a Dad. Instead of being offended, the single mothers should look upon this event as an opportunity to provide their son with a much needed interaction with a good male role model. It would likely do BOTH the scout and the single mother some good in the area of long-term development.

I'm not trying to muscle the women out of the event, but only suggesting that the scout bake with a male if at all possible. There are great positives that come from male bonding, even when the kid is only 6 years old.

My 2 cents-

Dean

P.S. (Kathy) - while extremely tragic that you have / had a scout in your Den who lost their father, do you REALLY think you are doing the scout and family a favor by removing any reference to 'father' or 'dad' for your scout events? Its painful, its a horrible loss, but life must go on and other kids (the majority of them), do have fathers. The many should not be made to sacrifice for the comfort of the few.

All you are doing is delaying a very harsh reality that the kid will have to deal with at some point. It is extremely sad, but renaming an event won't bring his father back, or make him feel better that he's at the event without a dad. It serves no point, other to inconvienence the majority and make those in charge feel better about making a little gesture that acknoledges someone's loss.(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

Its just you.

Do you have a daughter? I wonder what your take on the whole "Father / Daughter" Dance would be in girl scouts?

I don't mean to offend, but it sounds like your pack has a tradition of making the "bake off" a funny thing by having a dad and son (who together might not know a thing about baking), try to turn out a masterpiece.

If anything - I'd think as a woman you might find this type of event refreshing, because it enlightens a man (and his son) to the fact that baking (at least baking well), is not an easy task.

They might come away from the event with a good laugh and a new found respect for how their wife / mother turns out such good eats on a consistent basis.

As for the single parents - either let them name a stand in (uncle / grandfather / etc), or if they're so inclined let them do it with their son.

Other than that - sounds like hypersensitity to me.

Dean

1) Leave the momther (old CM) out of it. He's an adult. You're an adult. If you have an issue with something he said, take it up with him. You will gain NO credibility by running to his mother to correct things (especially if she's not active in the pack)... we are adults running the show, correct?

2) If you didn't hear the comment 1st hand and he doesn't feel strongly enough to bring the issue forward, then be a duck. Let it roll off your back.

3) As a CM, I do not expect 100% silence all the time at pack shows. As a former U.S. Army officer, I do command respect with my voice, my physical stance when addressing the group, and my overall body language. Try rehearsing in the mirror. Do you command respect? If not - no crowd is going to give it to you, especially a room full of 6-10 year old boys.

4) I ALWAYS start the meeting with a reminder about decorum and expectations. Dens sit together w/ Den Leaders. Parents & siblings sit in the rear. Den Leaders are in charge of their den's behavoir. Parents are responsible for themselves and any siblings. I have not had to do it yet, but I have no problem asking a parent to take themself, their cub, the sibling, or their spouse and remove them from the meeting if they are distrupting the event. I make this known (in a nice way) - the threat of embarrasement is a good deterent.

5) Finally - how FUN are your meetings? IF they are FUN, you will not have to work at holding the cubs' attention. We have silly skits, Den yells, goofy cheers, run-ons etc... I tell the boys I want them to be as LOUD as possible when they cheer or clap or have some other audience participation spot. Thats the point.

I also make sure they understand I expect complete cooperation, reverence, and to be quiet on only 3 occasions:

#1 - Anything to do with the U.S. Flag (posting, retreating, pledge)

#2 - Any Rank Advancement Ceremony (keep it short, but make it meaningful)

#3 - Any prayer or invocation we might have

Other than that - the meeting is for them, so they should be loud and have fun.

You need to set expectations and then follow through. I can tell by your, " If we ran cubs today expecting complete respect, cooperation and attention of 6 - 11 year old, we wouldn't have much of a scouting program left because they'd all quit. Sad maybe, but true in my opinion. Yes, they need to learn respect and they need to learn the rules... but they are still children and "work in progress"... plus cubs should be fun".

Sorry, but if you don't at LEAST begin by expecting it - the kids have no way of knowing WHAT they are supposed to live up to.

Do you allow your own children to talk back to you? After all, they're just "works in progress". Are they expected to cooperate at home? Then why is this a far fetched expectation of ALL the scouts?

Yes, cubs is supposed to be fun - but its fun with a purpose! If you and the other adult leaders are not willing to set expectations and follow through on them, really all you have is a huge playdate in uniforms. Run amok and have fun kids !!

Work on setting expectations and enforce them. I use a one warning, then you get to sit out system. I've only had to use it once and the mother of the child apologized profusely after the meeting to ME for her son's behavoir! I don't like sitting kids out and I don't look for a reason to do it. However, the meeting is for the scouts and about the scouts. If anyone is disruptive to the point of taking away from the "good of the group", I have no problem asking them not to participate for that day. Be it scout, parent, sibling, grandparent / etc...

One of the first things we can teach the scouts is when you're part of a group or team, the group is more important than YOU. If you don't think so, then you don't get to be part of the group. Its called consequences for your actions.

BSA is one of the FEW places that still tries to instill this concept into young people. Please don't water it down b/c you might be afraid that a parent will dislike you correcting their child. If they have that big an issue with it - they're in the wrong place to begin with anayways.

Good luck-

YiS,

Dean

As a CM (one that will someday be on his way OUT), I can tell you the scrapbook thing would mean the most. Maybe I'm a sappy guy, but a reminder of WHY I do what I do would be the best.

Other than that - Having someone step up and continue the tradition is what I hope to get when I "age out" of my position.

My largest fear is building a successful program and having it fall to shambles in a couple years because no one will pick up the ball and run with it. Want to give a great going away gift - VOLUNTEER to take their place !!!

DeanRx

sdcc57- You sound like the man "in the know". I sent a PM to you on this subject and look forward to your reply. As a CM in your council, I would hope Mr. Bolinbroke had permission to place his BSA title in the CA voter guide. You don't state that in your post.

I agree with the position. I support Mr. Bolinbroke's right to author a position statement for whomever or whatever Prop he may be inclined to support. However, I do NOT support him doing so under the guise of endorsement from the SDIC council or BSA.

Frankly, because of the trouble in recent years (decades) with the 9th circuit and the lawsuits regarding public land access for BSA, in particular your own council building in Balboa - WHY on earth would council (let alone national) allow someone with Mr. Bolinbroke's stature to throw fuel on the fire in such a direct manner?

I'm sure he's a good man, and gives generously in both time and money to BSA. However, suppose he had wanted to author a position for the opposition of Prop 8? Not only would I expect he'd no longer be welcome in the LDS, but in scouting as well!

Seems to me - unbeknown to the masses - the SDIC BSA has become a political action committee. I will have to think long and hard before I participate in FOS this year. Thought we were to be apolitical while in uniform... thats what national web site states.

I do / did support Prop 8. Marriage should be between a man and a woman. I do not think a homosexual lifestyle is conducive with scouting.

However, I do not support BSA or the council I reside in taking a controversial stance on the 2nd most hotly contested item nationwide (behind the Presidential Election). Prop 8 is / was not a scouting issue. Can you imagine the uproar if BSA (on a national level) were to endorse either candidate for President? Yet, there's nothing wrong with a high profile (volunteer) leader using their considerable clout to jump behind a Prop and then use their title while endorsing it?

By allowing Mr. Bolinbroke to use his BSA affiliation, the SDIC council did endorse (de facto) his stance on Prop 8. Otherwise the council didn't know about it (doubtful), or they supported him using it. Which is it?

I'd be interested to know:

1) Did he have permission ?

2) If not - has there been any discussion of corrective action ?

3) Does his time in service, monetary donations, connections run so deep that he is immune from repremaind for making political statements while "in uniform" (via title posted). ?

As a parent / leader / donator in your council, I'd be extremely interested to know the answer to those questions...

Looking forward to your reply...

YiS,

DeanRx

Sorry, but your CM is WAY off base.

I would discuss this with your CM and get your CC and ACM involved too. Bring along the book and the regs and let them know that you expect your Den to not be "grilled" in order to receive their Bobcat Badge.

If the CM protests and states, "This is how its always been done." well doing it wrong before doesn't mean you should continue the error.

I can't believe the CM would want to risk embarrasing a 1st grader like that. Good way to run people out of the pack. Tell them the requirements have been signed off by Akela and that is all that is required.

Push comes to shove - tell the CM you'll have to let the CO and District know that he is adding requirements to ranks.

Sounds like your CM is a little overdue for their CM training. I've been a Tiger DL and know a CM - this type of award ceremony grilling is the 1st no-no they cover at training. He / she should know better.

Best of luck-

Dean

Hal - looks like you have a chronic double post problem

Anyways - I agree with the statement, "I think leaders need to let go. Will they make mistakes -- sure. The leaders job is to make sure the mistakes are not lifethreatening, emotionally damaging or costly (like a whole new tent)."

I haven't done woodbadge yet, but from the sounds of it, I'm not going to enjoy it too much when the time comes. Boy Scouts is NOT about becoming an MBA. We have plenty of those type folks who have done a fine job getting our nation into the mess its in right now.

Fun, citizenship, personal responsibility, and leadership. Done using the outdoors as the classroom. If this is not the BSA any longer, then I'm not sure I want to be in the organization.

I posted before about this book, but I would LOVE to see BSA adopt it as required reading for ALL leaders at Cubmaster / Scoutmaster and higher levels...

"Last Child in the Woods", by Richard Lourv. He was awarded the 2008 Audibon Award for this research and writing. He addresses many of the issues we bicker on these forums about. Please, do yourself and your scouts a favor and check it out.

Best in the New Year,

Dean

As if it matters... to the uniform police it won't / doesn't...

I finally found my old council online last night and looked at their OA web site. According to the history of the OA lodge(s) from my old council, MY particular OA lodge was folded in w/ two other lodges in the mid 1990's and no longer exists.

If I want to put a loop on it and wear it as a temporary patch, the uniform guide says that I may... yes I too can read the regs.

Thanks BW - once again for twisting your post to be a backhanded stab at another scouters personal integrity. Unlike you, I'll be more direct:

ITS PEOPLE LIKE BOB WHITE THAT CAUSE GOOD FOLKS TO LEAVE THE ORGANIZATION.

It must be hard being so perfect and so right all the time. I'd think Jesus would get jealous.

Dean

As cubs, we family camp...

The pack plans the meals, does the buying, and cooks the meals. The exception is one "scout cook" opportunity, be it a hot dog on a stick over open flame, a hobo stew, or hamburger patty w/ fixin's in a foil pouch or a Smore's.

A few words of advice:

1) ALWAYS have a backup food for the "scout cook" (i.e. Peanut butter and jelly at the ready). Somebody's food is going to get burned / fall in the fire. They still need to eat.

2) Cooking for 50+ people is a large task. Break it up into smaller segments and assign duties. We have 3 to 4 "grubmasters" that do the actual cooking, coordinate the bulk food buy, transport, etc.. Then tap other adults and scouts and assign prep and clean-up duties. Everyone must do KP at least once on a campout. Tigers can wash a pot, it won't kill them.

3) We always have PB&J and instant mac-n-cheese availible for someone that turns their nose up at the menu for whatever reason, food allergy, religion, diet, or just plain don't like the menu.

4) Best way to handle the food critics (be them scouts or adults) and I quote, "I'm glad to hear your input. I'll be sure to put your name (or your parent's name) down for the planning / cooking crew for next time. I'll be sure you know when the next campout planning meeting will be so that you can attend and chair some of the planning / logistics." Either they have a legit concern & they WILL show up to help plan next time, or they shut up and eat whats been cooked for them.

Sorry, but menu planning is best left to Webelos and Boy Scouts... even then, I've heard the tale of a Webelos campout in which they had 15 packs of beef jerky, instant oatmeal, and smore's fixin's for an entire weekend campout. Brought the big Kool-aid pouches, but no pitcher. All good life lessons learned, but could've used a "little" adult guidance in the meal planning. BTW - they also carted along the biggest dutch oven they owned... not sure what they were going to cook in it? Maybe a huge sticky pot of instant oatmeal (with beef jerky chunks for added flavor), but they lugged it along anyways.

Dean

Just had a thought...

Guess I could take the lodge patch off the right pocket flap, sew a loop to the top and then hang it on the right pocket button...

Viola !, its now in the temporary patch location on my shirt and I'm legit.

Doubt, I'll get around to it soon

Dean

Jeffrey H -

Hope its not me you are refering to. Don't know if you're in our unit, but if you are - its not meant to offend. I still have my sash, but would never wear it, b/c I do not actively participate in a lodge or its activities.

I wear mine. It was earned as a scout. It had been in storage for 22 years before I became involved in BSA again 2 years ago with my own son.

I now reside 1/2 the U.S. away from the council I earned it in. I have tried to contact my old council to see about paying dues (I guess if writing a check makes it OK to wear), no reply. I don't even know if the lodge exists anymore. My son is in cubs right now, so not like I have an inroads to be "tapped out" (to be my normal non-PC self) in our current council.

Why, do I choose to wear it? Is it a matter of pride on my part? Maybe. Is it to brag? No. However, I cannot count the number of times I have had cubs ASK me about the patch, what it is, how / why I have it, and how can they earn one. Its a conversation starter. It speaks to the present about one of their leader's past.

If nothing else, its a reminder to myself and my scouts of what scouting is about - SERVICE. Truthfully, I didn't earn my Eagle, so its really the highest honor I achieved as a scout. I highly doubt I would have ever stepped forward as a DL or as a CM without the expiriences I gained via BSA and OA in particular with regards to service, camping and self reliance.

To me, its a reminder to continue to "pay-it-forward" and maybe inspire a young cub to aim high enough that when they have a son of their own, they will take up the reigns of adult leadership because of the expiriences and expectations that they had as a kid in scouts.

So if I'm in violation of some rule - I do apologize to the masses. However, it is not done for self glorification, and perhaps the incentive role it plays with scouts in our unit might actually outweigh the harm done by myself being "misuniformed".

Just thought there might be one or two more like me out there...

I'm sure BW will set me straight with a good lashing about, "A rule is a rule and you are a poor leader b/c you pick and choose which rules to follow and which you ignore...". Whatever. I'm sure ALL scout leaders ALWAYS drive 55 mph with scouts in the car when the speed limit says 55 mph.

I'll tell you this. I'd much rather have my old OA lodge patch than a new one, and certainly hold it in higher regard than any wood badge, silver beaver, or any other "award" I could possibly earn as an adult. Not that I do not respect those awards, I do and they take time and tallent to achieve. But, I earned my lodge patch as a scout. That was earned at a time when I didn't know for myself if I could actually pass the ordeal. After years of military service, I'm fairly sure I can overcome anything a BSA group can throw at me as an adult.

But at age 13, being "tapped" into OA at a time when the ceremony was closed, and hazing not only "allowed", but encouraged, it truely tested how strong you were and how much you trusted your fellow scouts. Not all parts were the most PC and some parts downright hurt and scared the crap out of me. I KNOW my ordeal played a significant role in defining what type of adult I was going to become at a pivitol time in my adolescence.

I understand WHY that type of ceremony is no longer allowed, because without oversight and the right people in leadership, people could get hurt. However, at the same time - if ordeal is something that everyone that gets "called out" can endure and pass with little to no physical, mental, or emotional soul searching, then the meaning has been devauled as well.

YiS,

Dean

Thanks for the info on the rangemaster qualifications from other councils...

I'm going to have to get the name and number of our council "Shooting Sports Director" and get the scoop straight from him.

The training I outlined was conveyed to me by our Council Training chair at BALOO this past summer and was re-iterated to me by the rangemaster we had on-site at the BSA scout ranch for or Fall Pack Campout in November.

I figured between the two of them, I was getting accurate information ?!? Maybe I need to dig deeper. I'd be more than willing to help out / train / be availible at a "cubbie" rangemaster if there is such a thing. Especially if on the Saturday's I'd go to the scout ranch as a rangemaster, I can have my son tag along and get in some time on the firing line between or after offical groups.

Dean

I think both SctDad and SSScout have you pointed in the right direction.

As for the "rangemaster" issue...

I have inquired at my council about becoming rangemaster qualified. It is not an easy thing to do. First, you must take the NRA training, not a big deal - can be done in a weekend, most likely a little drive from your local area (or even in your local area).

However, then you must qualify in the BSA training program. This usually happens over several weekends (some of which are extended weekends). Think Wood Badge on steroids. All checkoffs are pass / fail, and ALL must be completed. That means if you make it through the first 3 and fail the 4th test... you restart the next time they have training (which might be just once or twice a year).

Also, there is not a "partial" rangemaster in BSA. If you decide to do it, you will be trained and test out on: Air Rifle (BB-gun), Archery (recurve bow), 22-cal rifle, skeet and trap for shotgun (12-gauge), and black powder rifle. Its an all or none deal. You can't just qualify on BB-gun and archery so you can be rangemaster for cubbie summer camp. You have to know the black powder stuff and test out on it, even if you NEVER use it again in your life.

Finally, once you become a rangemaster, you are a rangemaster for your council. The expectation is that you will make yourself availible on multiple weekends throughout the year to provide rangemaster service at the local BSA camps for resident camp, Webelos Woods, BSA resident camp, and local unit campouts requesting range services, etc...

Many people (myself included) think they will just get the training, so when "our" unit goes camping, we can have a rangemaster along to do BB-gun and Archery... nope. You belong to the council. As one rangemaster I was talking with at our last pack campout stated, "You better have a real understanding wife, or be divorced, because you will need to be able to justify spending the majority of your spare weekends teaching kids how to shoot BB-guns."

While I may still do it - I have been made aware it is truely a "labor of love" and very time consuming both to get through the training, and then to live up to the time commitment expectations.

DeanRx

I think its the CONTEXT of the training...

1) Are the kids in the given Dens mature enough to understand the topic and respect the responsibility that their new knowledge (fire building) places upon them?

2) Is the DL capable of providing an appropriate learning situation? Will he talk up safety / responsibility as much (if not more so) than how cool it is to be able to start a fire? Given your post on how this person runs their Den meetings, I might have my doubts.

3) Do you feel comfortable with YOUR child learning this skill at this point in time? If not - they can opt out. Just as any parent that doesn't feel comfortable with their scout going to the range at camp can opt out.

I would say - this is a Den meeting I as a parent would attend. I would watch HOW the lesson is taught, the re-inforce / re-state anything I felt needed attention AFTER we got home.

BW is right - at age 8, they can figure out how to get matches and play with fire if they really want to. Best they learn how to respect fire and how to be responsible with it.

As for the idea that if its not in their handbook, then its not age appropriate ?!?!? Then I guess Tigers and Wolves need no mention of water safety, PFD use in boats, swimming w/ buddies / etc... After all, there's no swimming requirements in the Tiger or Wolf rank handbooks. Just take 'em to the pool and toss them right in... Range safety is not covered in ANY of the cub level handbooks - so I guess no ranges at camp. Or if they do have ranges, no need for a safety briefing, just give 'em the air rifles and bows and let them go at it ! Doesn't make much sense that just because its not in their rank achievements, they can't be doing the activity.

I'd say your issue lies with the DL and his ability / inability to SAFELY teach this subject matter.

If you have concerns, then you are well within your right to attend the Den meeting as an observer. However, I'd caution to refrain from interrupting / taking over, unless the DL is completely out of line and teaching items / attitudes towards fires that will but scouts in danger. Otherwise, let your kid learn and reinforce your ideals or add to the lesson afterwards in private.

Best of luck,

Dean

Mostly, the ACM's job is to be the "back-up". They are the Tonto to the CM "Lone Ranger".

My ACM is ready to step in and run the Pack Meeting, if I'm not able to attend.

He also:

1) Organizes and presents awards / rank advancements

2) Acts as camping chair on the committee

3) Is ready with a game / round-up activity for the Pack Meeting, so I and the CC can go over any last minute items w/o having to police scouts as they arrive.

4) Aids in the annual planning meeting

5) General Gopher and "other duties as assigned".

IF you are having trouble getting your ACM to help you outm you need to just ask her point-blank. See if SHE wants to step in to ad hoc Tiger DL (until a replacement is found).

Sorry to break the news to you - you can not be a CM and DL at the same time. Not only is contrary to BSA policy, but to attempt both would mean you will not be able to do a quality job at either post.

I would:

1) Have a talk w/ your ACM about sharing duties

2) Recruit, recruit, recruit.... a new Tiger DL - it really should be someone with a child in the Den. Kid in the Den = vested interest in the success of the Den.

Best of luck,

Dean

Well... was she ?!? Just kidding (kind of...)

While I would not condone anyone, least a cubbie and a Tiger at that, using such language. I think you are missing a "teachable moment" on multiple levels.

IF this was in earshot of other scouts - include them ALL in the discussion.

1) Lesson of being polite and self control. What is proper behavoir? What is proper language? (Maybe lesson in what is proper volume of voice when making a comment one might find offensive)? Oh come now - its not like the parents don't stand around and make judgements and comments ALL the time about other families and adults. You don't think the cubs pick up on this? How then, did Jr. LEARN the proper circumstance for using such a discriptive expletive?

2) Lesson in thinking of other's feelings before you speak. How would it make YOU feel if someone said that about you? What if they said it about your mom?

3) Language arts lesson. Have the offender(s) list you 5 to 10 ways the same statement could have been made without using profanity. My father used to do this to me when I would have a "slip of the toungue". He'd remind me that profanity is the "shortcut" of an uneducated person that lacks the mental capacity to come up with a suitable non-profane word. So, he'd make me repeat the phrase while using more appropriate language.

I.E. - calling someone a "fat _ _ _"

They have a rotund gluteous maximus...

They bring an extra seat cushion to the sofa...

They are big boned...

They are the reason they have double doors on all public buildings...

See... still offensive - yes. Profane, no. Much more funny - most likely...

The point is to not make it a game and to not minimize the infraction. The point is to teach the kid that there are MUCH better adjectives, adverbs, nouns, etc... out there that are often MUCH more funny than the profane choice. Make them use their mind a little. Less likely to need to wash out the mouth the next time. It also teaches that when they choose to use profanity, it is the SPEAKER that looks like a fool. It makes them look stupid. Yes, I know self-serving, but trust me... boys ages 7 to 12 will respond to that type of reason.

Plus, if they DO get in trouble... they'll likely get less admonishment, b/c at least their saying would have more comedic (and thus redeeming) value.

Just my two cents worth...

Plus if the mom that was so offended wasn't even the target of the comment, maybe she DOES need to go on a diet Maybe she could take the little bugger and his freinds on a 5 mile hike? That would be a win-win for all involved.(This message has been edited by DeanRx)