DeanRx

Beavah-

I agree with your post. I think its very important to talk up scouting while not talking down other youth organizations.

Now - not to try and hijack the thread, but...

Unfortunately, BSA could reach far more youth if they still had ties with public school systems. The truth is, BSA didn't abadon the public schools as chartered organization partners. Most public school systems will no longer enter into CO agreements with BSA units because of BSA policy regarding certain subsets of the population. Its the public school systems that left BSA because of BSA policies.

Not saying that its right, wrong, or neutral - but BSA has tied its own hands in this regard.

I say find what works best for your kid and your family.

If the bullying issue is TOO big to deal with, but your son really wnjoys scouting otherwise, then look at a different Troop / Pack. If you do choose to change units, led the SM and CC know WHY you are changing (after giving them an opportunity to address the bullying issue of course).

One bad apple doesn't speak for all of BSA. You can have terrible service at one Starbucks and it taints your view of the franchise. But, it doesn't mean that ALL Starbucks are ran the same way with the same poor service.

Best of Luck, Lisabob - I know its gotta be a tough spot to be in. All you can do is make the issue known to the leadership, if they choose not to act - then you have a choice to make.

I do, however, think that society in general has taken an over-reactive stance to bullying / hazing, particularly when it comes to fraternal organizations outside of a school environment. The helicopter parenting style coupled with a post-Columbine world leads folks to be hyper-vigilant / hyper-reactive about such things.

Here's the truth - every kid growing up spends some time on both sides of the bully equation... usually first as the victim and then later as the bully. For 99.9% of the populance it is something we learn how to handle and effectively navigate just like a million other interpersonal situations we learn as we grow up. Is it fair, no. Can it cause unpleasant memories, yes. Does it scar you for life, not usually. Can the parents protect, avoid, and shield a child from this type of behavoir forever, good luck on that one.

Check this site out:

www.boyscouttrail.com

I just used a bunch off of it for songs for our campout this weekend.

LisaBob-

Perhaps the one thing (that I haven't seen mentioned yet) is the fact that BSA is meant for EVERY boy. (yes, even those that might be quesitoning their sexuality or if God really does exist)

I agree your troop's leadership needs to address the "bullying" issue. However, did you ever stop to think, maybe the kid doing the bullying NEEDS scouts just as much (if not more) than your son or other boys in the group?

Here's the main difference I see (even with all the questions of should we or should we not throw a kid out for x,y,z)...

No other youth program I know of (save maybe the Young Marines, or JROTC) is willing to take the masses, the rif-raf, along with the good family kids and build them ALL up collectively as a team and into young adults with goals and a sense or purpose.

BSA puts them into uniforms - why? 1) so they identify with the group 2) Its an attempt to remove class status from the haves and the have-nots 3) It levels the playing field. Everyone looks the same, everyone must do the same tasks to earn a given rank. We camp together using Troop equipment. It is a group of 'US', not a group of individuals with a common interest. That's the goal anyways.

Sports - you're only as good as you can perform. Step out of line and unless you are the absolute star, you'll be riding the bench until you take the hint and drop out. If you're the rich kid, your equipment will ALWAYS be better than the poor kid's stuff. Plus, there are travel and all-star teams... there's no sense of teamwork anymore - its about who's kid can get the most play time to move up to the next level, start varsity, get the college scholarship... or take the shot at the big leagues.

Church Youth Group - Every one I've seen, been in, or been involved with has a very narrow view of what is right and acceptable behavoir. They are, by definition, a exclusive group because most require membership in a given congregation to be a member. Step outside those boundries - might as well pin a letter 'A' on your chest.

4H, Campfire, etc... most other groups are a common iterest built around individual achievement and competition. When is the last time you saw an entire 4H club get a ribbon for ALL their livestock? Nope - its one kid, one cow, one ribbon.

While not a military organization, what BP, the good Green Bar Bill, and others who have influenced BSA have tried to do (and hopefully have not had undone over time), is to CHALLENGE boys and young men into growing into purpose driven young adults.

Eagle is a great rank and a great honor. But, if your sole purpose (either as a scout or as a scout's parent) is to make Eagle so you have more bling to put on a resume or college application - then you are in it for the WRONG reasons! Its the development or character that matters, not the rank attained. Who's the better scout? The kid who is a gifted student and athelete and with the support of both parents makes Eagle by age 14? Or, the kid with a mom who works 2 jobs to keep her family fed, no dad he's ever known, but he finds purpose in scouting. Maybe he's not the brightest because he doesn't get the encouragement he needs in his home life - but he goes camping and learns some skills, makes it to Star or Life, but then fades away... BSA did 'em both good and if they both live the Oath and Law to the best of their abilities, then they are both good scouts.

BSA uses many methods to persue this goal. The patrol method is one. Mentorship from older scouts (PL), ASM, and SM's. The idea that before you can be a good leader, you must first learn how to follow. The ideal that success or failure of the group lies with each individual. The idea that you use outdoor skills to teach kids how to lead others... 1) Be taught the skill 2) Do the skill on your own 3) Now teach it to someone else.

These are all BSA's training methods, but they are born from a military background. If you don't believe me, look at BSA guidelines, then pick up some ROTC leadership training texts and take a look at how ALL the U.S. military academies run their programs. There are many parallels. It encourages the timid, yet is willing to break down the strong willed - so that both can be molded into their full potential. BSA knows this one truism - very little is gained until you push the scout beyond what they think they can accomplish.

One of the things that makes BSA stand out, is it is just as important and needed by the bully as those he bullies. The fact is properly implimented, the teaching tools in the BSA toolbox can help develop both boys into the men we need in the future generation.

Some of the scouts in my Troop growing up were there because they really didn't have anywhere else to go. They did their fair share of bullying (now called hazing and not allowed by BSA). I did my fair share as well. We all learned from it. We learned how to DEAL with real life in a semi-controlled and safe environment. Yes, maybe we were rough with each other. Yes, maybe someone got their feelings hurt a little. On a couple of occasions, we got scraped up and a nose or two got bloody.

But guess what? The real world is mean. The real world doesn't care if you're unprepared for it - it runs you over just the same. The business world is cut-throat. The guy who gave me a fat lip when we were both Tenderfoots was the best man at my wedding 12 years ago. I count him as one of the very few people I would literally lay my life on the line for.

Sorry if I sound harsh -Lisabob- but the point of scouting should be to help TEACH the boys how to deal with the real world, not protect them from it. This means that BSA teaches your son how to stick up for himself. This means BSA teaches the bully that if he acts that way enough times, to enough people he will soon find himself alone and without friends. Those are the realities of life that BSA (done right) can teach our son's to handle as adults.

I don't know of any other youth organization that even begins to try and accomplish such a task.

The Local Tour Permit issue for a council / district sponsored event is a tricky one. I have seen it vary from council to council (even vary depending on WHO I've talked with @ my own council office)!

Bottom line:

1) Permission Slips for EVERYONE going

2) Emergency contact info for any cubs who do not have a parent / guardian along w/ them

3) YPG is followed - ALWAYS

4) File the Local Tour Permit... better to have done it and not needed it than to not file one and be told by a "rule nazi" that your pack cannot participate when you get to the event b/c you are missing paperwork. (seen this one happen - thankfully not to our pack).

Heck - we file LTP's and permission slips for Day camp and Fun w/ Sons... people from the pack could technically just register on their own and show up without the pack's knowledge.... but we TRY to get 'em even for those folks.

Its never wrong to fill out a form / permission slip / LTP you think you MIGHT need.

NWScouter-

Thankf for the link info... hadn't run across that one yet. I was only half serious about the faux firearms idea. However, I do have a question...

"The wearing of special helmets, scarves, gloves, unofficial leggings, and the carrying of ceremonial guns or swords by members of such organizations using the uniforms of the Boy Scouts of America is in violation of the Rules and Regulations of the Boy Scouts of America."

unofficial leggings?... does that mean there are OFFICIAL LEGGINGS to the BSA uniform? Never heard of such a thing!

Think we'll go with the other boys carrying the Den Flags behind the U.S. Flag and Pack Flag.

Funky Flames from Wal-Mart (best bet and safest route)

The second being some copper filings that should turn the flame green. You'll need to practice beforehand to get the mix / amount right.

I'd stay clear of any magnesium product. It burns like a welders torch. Not a good "first impression" - little johnny at his first campfire is now seeing "flash spots" in his eyes for the next two days b/c he looked directly at the mag burning.

Good Luck,

Dean

Why ? Does there need to be an "offical" Kindergarden rank?

Most every pack I know of has "hangers on" in the form of little brothers and sisters at every event.

We have them in an "unoffical" group.

They are the "chipmunk patrol".... yes, I know technically a Den, but patrol goes better with the chipmunk moniker. They get do build a pinewood car and race in the "sibling" category. They had their own wading pool at this spring's family campout (it was late spring and very hot).

The Chipmunks had their pool, the cubs had a squirt gun fight! Opps, probably broke the GTSS rule about "war games" or something w/ that one...

Point being - CS is a family centered program and younger sibs are bound to be involved. Just include them and make 'em feel welcomed. I don't understand WHY we would need a nationally sponsored program for K-graders.

Whats the requirement for rank? Tie your own shoes and don't eat paste / crayons?

What's next: potty training merit badge? Geeesh !

And a name like "WannaBees" - BSA must 'wanna' make them get picked on by the older cubs. That's more lame than the stupid purple dinosaur my 2 y/o idolizes!(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

B/C outside of actually closing a suture (doubt a cub will be doing that), those two are commonly used to tie off fishing filament. They are often used on the same type of 'string' or 'line'.

Dean

I understand your point GW.

But I guess the same could be said of the bugle calls at cmapouts. Bugling is most definately an "Armed Service" (specifically an Army) tradition, so I guess there's no point in that either. Then again, so is flag retirement ceremonies... guess we should do away with those as well and leave it to the armed service or veteran organizations.

Then again - Knight of Colombus, they have color guards w/ 3rd degrre "Knights" w/swords... they're not an armed service. The Shriner's - yup seen them in parades w/ faux rifles in their color guard as well... are they part of the Navy?... I can't recall. At least in scouting we actually shoot guns. Maybe if they just parade w/ BB-guns GTSS states they can't do 22 cal. until Boy Scouts.

Is not about indoctrination. Its about discipline. Its about having something for the other 5 scouts to do that are NOT carrying the flag.

Then again, I think I'll have the scout color guard use big fake oasting sticks with HUGE fake marshmallows on the ends instead of the fake guns! It'll serve the same purpose, yet leave all the soccer moms feeling all warm a gooey inside about their son's participation! (This message has been edited by DeanRx)

Buffalo beat me to it...

I was going to say Sheet Bend b/c it is a required knot for the Bear rank.

For cubbies, I would suggest 5 to 6 knots tops...

Mine in decending order of importance:

Square knot

Bowline

Sheet Bend

Two Half Hitches

Taughtline Hitch

Clove Hitch / Timber Hitch

Extra Credit:

Fisherman's Knot / Surgeon's Knot

A cool stopper Knot like a "Monkey's Paw"

Also important... make sure they know what each knot is used for! Not much good if you know how to tie them, but use the wrong knot for a given situation... Don't want to be lowering a looped slip knot down a cliff for a fallen scouter to put around their torso to be hauled up! You better make sure its a Bowline! Make sure they can tell the difference b/t the Square knot and a "Granny" knot /etc...

Best of luck - I'm getting ready to make a knot learning board for our pack campout next month!

I tell 'em all they need to learn the knots well or else they won't be able to free themselves after I tie them all to a TREE !

Guess I'll ask the next logical question...

WHY did the rangemaster yell? What was the context of the outburst? While I agree it is not the most appropriate way to handle a situation, it begs the question because it happened on a range.

Was a cub from your pack in violation of a range safety rule? If so, not the best reaction, but the rangemaster is responsible for EVERYONE and EVERYTHING that happens on their range.

What if a cub picked up a firearm and pointed the muzzle towards the group of assembled scouts? As a by-stander, I'd be inclined to "yell" about that and I wouldn't even be the party in charge.

There are very few instances in which cubs engage in activity that is very cut and dried, "Do as I say, or you are not participating. No second chance - you break this rule, you're out of the activity." A live fire range (even w/ just BB-guns or recurve archery) is one of those few times.

Not that I agree that yelling is the best remedy.

However, I would need to reserve judgement until I know more details surrounding the incident.

As for the CM of the your pack - if he/she is on the range, they need to support the rangemaster's decision and authority. Even if they disagree with it at the time. The firing line is not the place to get into a "peter measuring contest" and likely would just serve to escalate the situation.

Like I said - not trying to defend the actions, but we need to know context. If a scout had shot another scout on the range, then there would be plenty of "formal complaints" about how the rangemaster lost command and control of the range. So, a few bruised feelings are not that big of a deal in the grand scheme.

I tried to search on this, but must not put in the correct 'key words'... and I admit, I'm still in cubbieland w/ my son so its not an issue yet.

However, I see a good amount of discussion about the "patrol method" vs adult led and Troops being "Eagle Mills".

One thing that I have obsevred (after going back over my BSA handbook from the early 1980's) is that EVERY rank had a "time in service" component. It also had a "Troop level leadership" component for every rank above 1nd class.

This meant a scout had to spend x amount of months as their current rank and spend x amount of time as a PL, Den Cheif, Quartermaster, Chaplain's aid, etc... some type of youth leader position as a requirement for the next rank.

Seems to me, the time and leadership elements FORCED the idea of the patrol method and at the same time insured that a scout was not just "checking boxes" as they had to spend a significant amount of time (2 months for Tenderfoot, 2nd class, 1st class, 4 months for Star, 6 months for Life, and 6 months for Eagle) at the previous rank. That's a minimum of being active for 22 months on the fastest possible tract.

You couldn't join the Boy Scouts until you were at least 10.5 years old (most were 11 y/o).

Additionally, for Star, Life, and Eagle one had to occupy a youth leadership position for the entire 'time in service' requirement. Realistically, the quickest anyone could move through the ranks was about 3 years time. This was because of merit badge requirements (not always offered or offered twice a year) and camping requirements (so many overnights for certain required beltloops).

The whole - go at a pace that ensures the skills are actually LEARNED instead of check-boxed took care of itself in the 'time in service' and "not everyone can be PL all at the same time".

So I wonder WHY the time in service requirements have been abandoned? Seems to me that there is a certain confidence that comes from spending enough time at one rank to master its skills before moving on to the next.

The great secret to the "time in service" and the youth leadership requirements was that it helped instill this confidence without holding the scout back so much that they stagnated at one rank (unless of course they chose to do so).

So, why did BSA get rid of it?

Funny thing -

We have Bugle calls for our CUB SCOUT family campouts. Its nostalgia, its discipline, and its fun rolled into one.

We use it for flag salutes, for mess call, for assembly, for retirement, and for taps.

My cub scouts also call everyone to "attention" prior to proceeding with raising the colors or rendering retreat of the colors.

Haven't had any complaints yet. Then again, I'm a former Army officer, and my CC has an Eagle scout brother who is a West Point grad on his 2nd tour in Iraq. Guess we seem to think alike.

Even the parents on the far left of the spectrum see value in the "drill" while camping. The subject of having our color guard use "rubber ducks" (i.e. replica firearms) to flank the flags has come up... its a mixed review at this point, but I see value in it.

1) It teaches the scouts another aspect of flag decorum

2) It gets additional scouts (other than the two carrying the flags) involved in the color guard (other than just following the flags in).

3) It teaches discipline, teamwork, and respect for your task.

We'll see how long I last, I guess... never been told these things are NOT allowed in any of my scout training, so I guess I'll beg for forgiveness instead of ask for permission.

Funny how BSA is not a paramilitary organization. It took less than 100 years to forget its roots...(This message has been edited by DeanRx)

Scouting (w/ help from my mother) taught me to sew.

I'm better at it than my wife. My son (wolf) helps sew on every patch he gets for his red vest. I think they patches for standing upright now, been in cubs for 2 years and dang near needs a 2nd vest!

By the time he's a Webelos, I will no longer sew a patch on his uniform for him - its all up to him.

However, if sewing is a merit badge, then there should be a repeal of the paint-ball ban and paint-ball should be a merit badge! Teach them to do it safe and it mitigates the risk!

Liz-

I mother with a gun safe (and wants to put throwing axes in it)?.

What a woman ! Nice to know there are others out there like this besides my wife

Fargo-

Sorry, but its in no publication that I know of either. It was, hoever, highly emphasized at TWO seperate CM trainings I've attended. Both of which were conducted by two different Districts.

Our common practice is discuss and come to a consensus.

We also have drafted written bylaws for the pack and if an impass is reached, the "voting" method is stated in our bylaws.

You can have whoever you want vote or not vote (I would guess), I (as the CM) just don't want to be the veto man, the tie-breaker, etc.... b/c 1) that makes sense, 2) I have enough other headaches, 3) thats the way I was trained-up by my district / council.

I say draw up pack by-laws that everyone can agree to. Advocate for discussion and compromise, but have in your by-laws the PROCEDURE for voting should the need arise. Have the rules of the road ahead of time, so no cries of bias can be made to the process.

Hopefully, it would never come to that. But there's a saying somewhere about being prepared I seem to remember ?!?!

As for District / Council / National policy on the subject. Don't hold your breath. They probably look at this as an individual unit's governing issue. They don't like to step in on unit level business unless it involves the removal of core adult leadership due to unethical, immoral, or illegal actions on the part of the adult leader.

Good luck-

DeanRx

Scouter760 wrote:

"We have had disagreements over this in our pack. At one time, we had a den leader who started giving out lots of belt loops and pins, whereas others had not been doing that. So, the committee chair pushed through a vote to limit it to 3 per boy. However, later we got a new committee chair and it went back to buying all of them. We did eventually raise our yearly dues, which has helped.

I really think it is the pack's responsibility to pay for awards out of whatever funds have been raised, and if they can't they need to find new ways to raise the funds rather than nickle-and-diming the parents. "

**************************************************

A couple of things with this line of thought:

1) Do you really want to set-up a situation that you "punish" a scout for making achievements? I don't see how a pack can say, we'll pony up for 3 Belt Loops, but poor Johnny that busted his hump @ Day camp and earned 8 belt loops, well his parents better pay up or he won't get his awards.... Huh?

2) I agree that the pack should find ways to pay for awards (they should budget for it). However, in doing so - the pack should also be able to set expectations with regards to participation in unit fundraising.

I have a hard time believing that the scout that is earning 12 belt loops a year isn't selling any popcorn.

Most of the scouts that are "go-getters" about the belt loop / pin program are the same ones that are "go-getters" in selling for fundraisers. Whether this is by their own doing, or via pushing by the parents.

It seems those that earned the most for the pack are also likely to be the most involved in pack activities and thus see the greatest "return on invenstment" ROI for their hard work in fundraising.

As far as nickle and diming the parents - its as easy as giving them the choice. Hey, either you help your son sell for our unit fundraiser, or you can expect to buy x, y, z throughout the year for Pack activities b/c its no longer included in pack dues.

I think funding for earned awards (of all types) trumps all other spending in a Pack. If the scout does the requirements and EARNS the award, they should have it GIVEN to them as a member of the pack. Period.

If this means everyone pays for each PWD kit, and pays cash out of pocket for camping trips, day camp etc... so be it.

Everything can be pay-to-play except those items that are EARNED. Awards are earned - if the pack cannot support the scout, how can the scout grow?

Buffalo Skipper has it right...

The "voting" members are those that are REGISTERED adults with BSA in the pack. You can have as many registered adults as you want. However, you must pay ($10 or whatever annually) to BSA and they MUST do the online fast start training and YPG (so they know the rules of the road).

The CM is definately excluded from "voting" status. The DL's may or may not vote depending upon the pack and its size.

The COR and CC are voting members and the CC runs the show (as far as adult meetings / planning goes). The CC should be the one to set the agenda with input from other committee members.

It was made EXTREMELY clear at my on-site CM training:

1) CC and Committees PLAN the PROGRAM

2) CM Implements the PLAN for the unit

I have had to explain this several times to folks in the Pack that come to me as the CM and want me to "rule" on an issue, or cast the "deciding" vote, or issue a VETO on an issue.

As CM, I am a ringleader to youth, a showman, a class clown...

I (unlike our current President) am NOT the decider. That is the committee's job. I have input and they usually listen, but if push comes to shove, we do what the committee wants.

To answer the OP's question - the CC should set the agenda. We allow for public comments and any and ALL parents are welcome. However, we do ask that any major "new" business be e-mailed to the CC PRIOR to the meeting so that it can be included in the agenda for planning and time constraint purposes. If we can fit in public comment we do, but if the meeting is running too long we might ask that the issue be tabled and added as an offical agenda item for the following month - but that would be a rare occurance. We don't have a seperate DL meeting, just the committee meeting.

Usual suspects for attendance:

CC, CM, ACM, DL's, Pack Trainer, Treasurer (maybe), ad hoc planning members (B&G, PWD, Campouts, etc), any other registered committee memebrs, and any scout parents that want to sit in.

All very good pints thus far...

I would include the following:

1) Scouts sit by Dens either in chairs or on benches at the front. DL's and any assistant DL's sit with their Den. Youngest in front, so Tigers and Wolves in the front rows by Den, followed by Bears and Weebelos behind them. DL's are responsible for control of their individual Den.

2) Parents and siblings / family are behind the scouts in chairs. Parents are responsible for controlling sibling behavoir.

3) STATE EXPECTATIONS UP FRONT ! I begin every Pack Show with a quick reminder on decorum... we will have fun and be loud. We will be silly. Also, we will look for and respect the Cub Scout Sign. The only times I expect absolute seriousness is during these three events: a) Anything to do with the Flag (posting / retiring) b) Anything to do with a prayer c) During a rank advancement award.

4) Tell the parents (again a 1 min review at the start of meeting):

a) If you need to answer the cell phone - step outside the hall

b) Siblings (small ones) squirm and I understand that. However, if they are disruptive to others enjoying the "show", I will stop the show and ask the parent to take the child out of the hall. The threat of embarrasment alone is enough to get them to keep the little ones on a short leash.

c) If you have something SOOOOO important to discuss with another parent in the middle of the Pack Show, then you can either take it outside the Hall, OR come up and have your discussion in front of the entire pack - your choice? However, if you were out in the hallway talking with your neighbor lady when your little Johnny got his Leave No Trace Award.... then you have to explain to your son WHY you missed it.

My point to the parents is this is NOT their social hour. The Pack Show is for the SCOUTS - its about THEM, not about the parents having an hour of downtime from being a parent.

Finally - keep it fast paced and INCLUDE THE SCOUTS in everything !!!

Not only skits, songs, but I use 4 to 5 scouts each meeting to do "run-ons" to transition from one topic to another....

Example: Transition to Popcorn sales announcement.... Scout A enters stage left moving to stage right with a big movie bucket of popcorn... states as he reaches center stage, "This is the Best Pack SHOW I've ever seen !! Wish I had some popcorn to enjoy with this fine show !!!" (The campier done the better).....

Then the popcorn chair comes out and gives a very SHORT announcement.

Bring the scouts into being part of the program even if they aren't getting an award that night. It keeps them interested and keeps them from becoming disruptive to the Pack.

Have the scouts in the audience participate in the ceremonies with sound effects... If you're telling a story about camping in the rain, have the entire audience pat their knees while sitting.... it sounds like rain! We "brand" our new ranks on the hand with a hand stamp attached to a dowel (looks like a branding iron).... the entire audience gets to make the "sizzzzzzzzzzzle....." sounds (hissing Sssssss) as the scout receiving rank has the stamp pressed on their hand. Its silly, yet keeps them engaged in the action when they're not the one getting an award.

We also have 2 or 3 raffles every Pack Show. (gum, model plane / etc...) The quicker they quiet down for the sign, the sooner they get to have the raffle prize announced. Have various scouts draw the number for the raffle - it keeps them part of the action, instead of just being the audience.

I also publicly PRAISE the proper behavoir when I see it.

Last month, the TIGERS were the best at responding to the Cub Scout Sign. I pointed out to the other Dens that the newest and youngest in our Pack were making the "older" ones look bad because they were showing better scout spirit than our expirienced scouts. I wasn't mean about it, I just commented, "Man, look at those Tigers and how they quiet down so fast.... The Bears and Webelos could learn a thing or two from those Tigers....". Funny how the Bear and Webelos dens shaped up after that. No 4th or 5th grader wants to be shown up by a 1st grader.

Finally, keep it to 1 hr MAX ! Between 45 mins and 1 hour is best. I you have a large pack and this means Belt Loops and pins get awarded at the Den meeting instead of the Pack Show, then so be it. Save the Major Awards (rank advancements) for the Pack Show.

Thats enough of a ramble...

Just seat them by Den (tell DL's beforehand the expectation on them for Den control), keep it fast paced and exciting. make sure they know up front when its OK to be goofy /loud and when they should be serious. Keep length to 1 hr max. Everything else will fall into place.

Best of luck

YiS,

Dean

so GW-

If I refered to YOUR son as "unusual", you would take no offense to that statement?

:)

Evmori writes ,"That's it! Would the moderators please remind everyone of the subject of the topic and demand people stay on topic! Man! You think, well, I'm not going there!"

***************

I guess I should then request that the mods REMIND (or demand to use Evmori's words) that just because someone doesn't agree with what another poster has to say doesn't mean that its automatically "off-topic" and thus should be censured.... so much for a free exchange of ideas.

***********************

GW - You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't begrudge you your stance.

It does bother me somewhat that because I use my own life expirience as an example, you feel compelled to use derogatory adjectives towards my children. Some would argue that when you must stoop to personal attacks, you have lost the debate on merit, so you drop to mudslinging as a last resort(thats what my HS debate coach used to teach).

My point is kids are kids and some boys play with girls, others do not. I agree you can easily ask "Why have girls in scouts?" just as you can ask "Why not?".

As for an autistic child and atheists - you're right. Neither have ANYTHING to do with each other, which is my point. You do NOT exculde an entire subset of the population because SOME in that subset may act out in an inappropriate manner. The acting out doesn't matter if its the result of a physiological ailment or b/c of misguided faith - its still acting out - so do you exclude them?

GW writes, "Oddly, I've never seen a Hindu or a Wiccan launch a tirade when someone bows their head in prayer at lunch."

With all due respect GW - I've never seen an atheist or agnostic launch a tirade when someone bows their head in prayer at lunch either. I hardly think Bill Maher is the typical example of an atheist (just as Rush is not the 'typical' example of a conservative) - they just both happen to have a microphone and say outlandish things to get ratings.

I just think BSA would be in a better position if they tread lightly on the issue of religion....

What if (gasp) - a democratic and highly liberal president (gee it could happen) and a democratic and highly liberal congress (yup already have that) decided that the BSA charter was no longer valid. Where does that leave the organization?

What if the largest youth movement in the U.S. instead ackowledged and included any and all religions EXCEPT LDS? Over 50% of those very actively involved in scouting would be left out. I'm sure that would be viewed as discrimination, but as long as the perverbal hiking boot is on the other foot.... well - we're just making a stand for our beliefs, aren't we?

As an aside - back when my father was in scouting, there was talk in certain areas of the U.S. of keeping the "colored folks" out of the organization... funny how wrong that seems now, but then it was an honest and respected setiment.

Like I said - in time, hopefully BSA will see the irony of these policies and revise them accordingly for the good of ALL of America's youth.

*** I'm done with this thread - on to more positive discussion ***

YiS,

Dean

GW-

1) I have two boys. They play with BOTH girls and boys in the neighborhood ALL THE TIME ! From what I've seen, they don't seek out or seek to avoid based on gender, but on what they have in common (a shared street) and whether or not the other kid and they get along.

2) All atheists are disruptive? O.K. - so if you have an autistic scout that acts out, are they collectively (as a group) barred from scouting? What if the religion is not judeo-Christian in nature? Guess I'll have to tell the Hindu kid that just joined he's not welcome...

3) This post IS about gays and atheists ! The suit is filed because BSA is fighting a rival organization for trademark infringement based on the FACT that the second group was denied membership in BSA to begin with because of their beliefs in regards to gays, atheists, and females.

That's like saying if I sue an automaker because they made a faulty car and I go into a wreck, that I'd be suing on the grounds of poor quality. Factually, yes this is true.... but I'd be suing b/c I got hurt due to their oversight or outright mallice.

I'll go back to letter the 'lawyers' fight over semantics... its better than substance anyways.

I'm not a lawyer, don't play on on TV, and I didn't even stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night - so I won't attempt to split hairs over patent vs trademark vs. copyright law...

My overall point is this:

If (gasp) BSA were to allow for inclusion of the 3 groups in question (gays, atheists, and females), but were to do so by drafting strict policy regarding what can and cannot be discussed, disimenated, or objected to in meetings and gatherings (i.e. set their own terms / standards)...

Would this not deflate the sails and lay void the arguments of the opposition?

Set the rules up strictly. With regards to atheists - Say, if you want to come play, we are happy to have you. However, we ARE a religious / faith based organization, therefore there will be prayers / invocations / benedictions / etc... if you have an issue with it, please refrain from distrupting the ceremony and be a respectful non-participant, or there's the door (lack of scout spirit = out of the group)... (Just as in business - its easier to make a bad employee QUIT than it is to fire them).

I don't suggest BSA go out of their way to make said groups feel unwelcome, but make it known up front, this is what we are about and YOU (as an individual) are choosing to participate. If you don't like or agree with our beliefs, then you can choose not to be part of our group.

It turns the situation from - "We are excluding said group because we don't agree with their views...". INTO - "We asked them to join us, but because they don't like what WE believe, they chose to not participate." They have no leg to stand on in court any longer!

As for the gays - its an easy policy shift to: "Any and ALL discussion regarding sexuality is off-limits between adult leaders and youth in BSA. Such discussion is deemed to be contrary to the mission of BSA and will result in termination of privledges within the unit. Discussions of a sexual nature (either hetero or homo) between youth in the group are to be discouraged by all adult leadership." Period. If a scout has a sex question (hetero or homo) - direct them to a trusted adult family member, a church member, a school counselor or school / community health adviser - someone outside of BSA! Stay the HECK off that topic !

The female thing... well honestly - who (other than kid sisters of some of the cubs) truely want to join Cub / Boy Scouts. Those that do will likely join GSA or join a venturing crew. I really don't understand the whole, "A female adult is OK, in fact we are happy to have the help.... but 'no girls allowed'."

And call me odd, but isn't interacting and dealing with not just females, but diversity (gays / atheists) as a whole something that everyone needs to learn as a life skill? Our goal in Scouting is to prepare youths (namely boys) to be productive citizens and mature adults. They're gonna have to learn to deal with these facets of life at some point. Why not in a controlled, nuturing, supportive environment like BSA?

I just think that once you take away the "agenda" from those that have one, they loose the will to fight. Then BSA can utilize its resources in a more productive manner to build even better programs for the youth of America.

If I was director of BSA national - I'd advocate for a 13th point to the Scout Law.... A scout is tollerant.

It doesn't mean the scout endorses or agrees. It means a scout agrees to disagree without being exclusive in their manerisms...

Perhaps I'm a bit of a dreamer, but I think BSA will get there someday... or Bevah might be correct... congress could always decide to revoke the charter and hand the raines to another "youth" organization. Hope I don't live to see that day.

1) You need to split the group. I don't care WHAT the CM / SM or ACM says... BSA guidelines say 20 is too much. I'd advise at LEAST 2 dens of 10 and would recommend 3 dens of 7, 7, and 6.

If you don't split up - what are you going to do if you pick up more scouts along the way this year (or next)?

1a) Get a seperate meeting place. Hard enough to control your den. Trying to talk over someone else's den - forget it !

2) Get trained (as others have stated)

3) Get a poster board. Have the TIGERS make up rules that they want THEIR den to have. Keep it short (5 to 6 max). Then ask them what the "punishment" should be for breaking the Den rules? My Tiger den came up with a "5 minute time out"... I have never had to use it. In fact the boys will call each other on the 'rule list' - and say "You'd better stop x,y,z... or you'll have to sit out 5 minutes...."

Post the poster at EVERY den meeting. Spend 1-2 minutes at the start of the meeting reviewing the rules and WHY you have them.

4) GET YOURSELF A "TALKING STICK" !!! - Our den made one out of a 9 inch dowel. We wrapped leather around it, tethered some feathers to it and each Tiger got to tie a lanyard with their name in beads to it. I explained at our 1st meeting that in many Native American tribes, ONLY THE PERSON WITH THE TALKING STICK is allowed to talk. It must be passed from one person to the next so that everyone gets input, but you must LISTEN if you don't have it.

When its the DL's turn to talk - I ask for the stick.

Its like the conch shell in "Lord of the Flies"..... and you won't believe how well it works with a bunch of 6-7 year olds. Especially if you put some well spun "Indian" meaning into it.

5) Use a positive reinforcement reward (i.e. a stick of gum, or a small candy / eraser / match-box car) for the scout that responds to the scout sign FIRST in the den. Do this only ONCE a meeting and tell them you don't know which time will count for the "prize".... They'll be quieting down in no time when your hand goes up with the sign.

Best of luck - be consistent - and SHOW NO FEAR ! They smell fear like a pack of hungry wolves - thats why they're called DENS

YiS,

DeanRx

Its just a matter of time fellas....

BSA keeps spending money in court to keep out the gays, the atheists, and the females from membership.

They go so far as to trounce anyone that starts a similar organization that allows for one or more of these "groups" (for lack of a better term) into their organization... thus enraging the groups that have been "discriminated" against.

Bottom line - they will not stop until they are included.

If BSA national is wise (I think they are) - they will at sometime in the future move to a more inclusive stance. It behoves them to do so on their OWN terms, instead of waiting until the tide of liberal judges are SO far against them that BSA will be forced to offer membership to all on the terms of a court decision.

I was in the Army (ROTC on my way into active duty) when Clinton inacted "Don't ask - Don't Tell..." It was a HUGE issue everywhere. Now, less than 20 years later, its a non-issue in the armed forces. Other than if someone wants a free ticket out of service, they just have to declare themself a homosexual - punch the ticket - take a general (istead of honorable) discharge and Uncle Sam buys them a bus ticket home.

The bottom line is - I would like to keep certain ideals and elements out of BSA and my son's scouting expirience. But if they want to join and do so without an agenda, then WHY doesn't BSA allow them to join with the stipulation that sexuality, religion, and gender are off limits as discussion (pro or con)?

BSA should do this on THEIR terms before it is mandated and dictated to them by the courts... or before they loose the rights to so many land use permits that there is no place left to camp.... or before they bankrupt their own organization because they can't sell enough popcorn to keep up with the legal fees.

Besides - when I read the Scout Law - I don't find anything about excluding others. If anything, by our law and our motto, we are charged with being an inclusive organization.

Just wait until Mr Wrenn appeals the judge's ruling and it lands in the lap of the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals up in S.F. !!! They'd have a field day with it. If they have no problem declaring the Pledge of Allegiance in public school unconstitutional, they wouldn't think twice about forcing the "integration" (if you will) of the BSA.

Most scouting activities in Europe are co-ed groups. Heck, even the scouts that come to the Scout Fair in San Diego from Mexico are co-ed. As far as the atheists - they can believe whatever they want as long as they are not disruptive to the religious ceremonies and prayers of the faithful at the meetings. As for gays - as long as they are not promoting the lifestyle, why is it anyone's business? I'd be apalled by ANYONE speaking to scouts about sexuality in ANY manner (heterosexual or homosexual). That's not part of scouting's job. That is a parent's job!

While I don't agree with the atheists, the gays, or including females into Cub and Boy Scouts - I just don't see how BSA can hold out forever and still survive.

Its a war of attrition and the "enemy" has time, legislation, money, and a great amount of public setiment on their side.

At what point does it become, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." At least it could be done under BSA's terms. Otherwise, I fear BSA will be bankrupt from such fights before my two sons complete their scouting years.