concerned_scout66

Thanks to 89camper for additional details of this transaction. There are many details that I left out actually: Council mismanagement of assets, past arrests of PHC employees for embezzling council funds, recent PHC staff firings, and the recent increase in paid staff despite declining membership. I left them out because I didn't see them as important to the ethical question of selling something BSA doesn't own. Camp Thunderbird has been used for at least the last decade for Cub Scout Resident Camp activities. Mom & Me, Dad & Lad, Webelos Resident Camp, and Webelos Weeken

Thanks for the input guys. FScouter: Thanks for the SM Handbook references. There don't appear to be any hard age limitations. Instead, the guidelines are generally based on experience (which makes sense to me.) The handbook does actually mention a 12 YO PL and a 14 YO SPL but only in the context of how much support might be required from adults. iaeagle: I wondered if his concern was more about parent's cutting corners and asked at the time. This SM has rules in place forbidding parents from signing off any rank or MB requirements for their son. This rule is absolut

I know a SM in my district who feels that Scouts "advancing too quickly" should be "slowed down". He also believes that boys should be "older" when they take on positions of responsibility because it will mean more to them. I'm not sure I disagree with him but his definitions of "advancing too quickly" and "older", as well as his methods for "slowing people down", sort of raise my hackles a bit. From my conversation with him, Scouts who advance at a rate that would have them at Eagle at/before 16 YO are moving too quickly. In his opinion, a 14-15 YO Eagle is unacceptable regardless of

My wife and I both own smaller cars that get 35-40 MPG. My family of 4 will easily fit in either car and these work for virtually all of the travel we do. On the weekends that we go on Scout outings, we rent a large cab pickup truck from Enterprise. This will carry 5 people and gear. It seems odd but works very well. We've been doing this for about 6 years now. We average about 24 rental days per year. In my area I can get a pickup from Enterprise Rental Cars for < $50.00/day. If I need an SUV I'll get one but a pickup usually does the trick. By making the reservation at the lo

More information... On this issue, I've received a very nice response from the Executive Director of PRAY. It seems that the volunteer in question had actually sent the article in question to him asking for permission to display it. According to the PRAY Director, the volunteer was told NOT to display the article and specifically to use only the items they would send him. That's the end of it for me. PRAY does some awesome work and I trust that this one volunteer won't tarnish their reputation. Not so concerned anymore...

Search initiated after Scout goes AWOL. Scout hitchhikes home. (ABC 4 News) -- A 13-year boy scout who went missing in the Unitah mountains and prompted an overnight search, was found in Salt Lake Wednesday morning after he hitchhiked a ride from camp. Tuesday night, officials at Camp Steiner called deputies to report Joshua had left the camp. They told officers the scout had an argument with an adviser and took off in the dark. Camp Director Reid Hall said Joshua had a sling shot, and he was using it to throw rocks against buildings. A scout master took the sling shot away, an

SeattlePioneer, I didn't realize that Chief Seattle used the camp for Camporees but that makes lots of sense. As you know, Kilworth is only a few miles South of the border between Chief Seattle and Pacific Harbors. Our own Scout execs somehow managed to omit that usage during their "let's sell Kilworth" pitch almost 1 year ago. Along with others, I personally sent emails and letters to Doug Dillow (Council Exec for Pacific Harbors) and Brad Farmer (Council Exec for Chief Seattle) suggesting that an alliance between the 2 Councils might be beneficial. No response from either. A po

Ed, The closest Pacific Harbors Council camp is about 90 minutes away (on a good day). Kilworth is situated between Seattle and Tacoma. It used to be on the edge of the Seattle and Tacoma suburbs but is now right smack in the middle of them. In the past, Kilworth was frequently used. There is a lodge (donated by Rotary in the 40's or 50's), 2 firebowls, 2 ranges, and campsites for maybe 300 boys. Until about 10 years ago, there was a very popular short trail down to the beach. Despite the efforts of the local Scouters, the Council seems to have little interest in the cam

A deal to sell Camp Kilworth, run by Pacific Harbors Council and located in Federal Way, WA has been struck with local developers. This camp, like so many other BSA camps, was donated in the early 1930's by a local philanthropist for the use of the Scouts. The camp sits on a beautifully treed piece of land overlooking the beautiful Puget Sound. The camp is only 30 minutes from Seattle and Tacoma. There are sufficient buildings and campsites but, unfortunately, the camp is poorly maintained, badly managed, and not promoted even within the council. This land is worth millions of dol

Alki, A fine Seattle name! I used to dive there all the time in my younger days and spent quite a few years as a Varsity Coach in Chief Seattle. Welcome to the discussion. "Within the current parameters of LDS Church policy and BSA policy, however, what are some possible solutions?" I don't have any answers on this one yet. Salt Lake has responded to one suggestion I sent but is not interested in any position that has the Church admitting fault. Despite the statistics, the LDS Church holds that this is a BSA problem that must be resolved by BSA. Irving has not responded to

"If all the loyal Scouts keep telling the informed dissidents to leave....who's going to change things?" Great question. Here's my guess... After dissenting opinion on the current major disagreements is gone, there would be no change for a while. This would continue until loyalists realize that they are really all quite different. They never will figure out that "respect and defend" was a way of life that they did not learn. They never will understand that the only reason they agreed on anything was that they had a common enemy in the liberals (whose only goal was to have B

fgoodwin, Until now, I actually respected most of our posts. Thanks for setting me straight. Even more concerned...

"I think that in some areas, for some people, the BSA's discriminatory membership policies are a hindrance to recruitment." Even as a conservative I can see this is true in WA and CA. Members of my own church are embarassed to be associated with BSA because it openly promotes intolerance and bigotry. These values are simply un-American. Scouters who try to correct this problem from within are met with the standard "if you don't like it, you can leave" response. It's a vicious way of dealing with a problem -- one that only further reduces the BSA support base. Perhaps

> "If you truly care about Scouting, should you excuse the > long term failures of paid management?" No, but I think the problem is bigger than just poor corporate management. For decades, BSA has avoided direct confrontrations and encouraged America's youth to "respect and defend the rights of all people". Recently, however, BSA stopped respecting and defending and now allows outside interests to use it as a battering ram in their fight against Americans who have different opinions regarding certain controversial "moral" positions. IMHO, BSA should get back to the

I know that many of us have seen similar situations pop up from time to time. In general, I agree with NeiLup's stance. The boy is probably not ready but shouldn't be discouraged from improving. I know of one circumstance in my troop where a boy from a different troop was caught with 2 other boys stealing some of our gear at summer camp. The reason I mention this is because of the method he chose to right the situation. At one of our troop meetings, this young man asked to speak during opening announcements. He introduced himself as "one of the guys who stole your stuff at camp".

Did anyone else hear the rumor at Jamboree that BSA was interested in holding the 2010 Jamboree in Dallas, TX? The way the rumor went was this: Ross Perot was willing to donate a large parcel of land that he owns North of the Dallas/Ft. Worth airport. There's a lake there. BSA is very interested in having it's own facility and is already lining up donations to put in the needed infrastructure. I don't know how much credence to put to this rumor. It seems like a stretch for me. The government subsidy we get by using A.P. Hill is massive and Dallas ain't exactly a tourist mecca...

Fair questions both. I'm not sure how one "authorizes" the posting of such article. My question to the representative was whether PRAY even knew the article was posted at all. His response was that it was "authorized" and that considerable thought had gone into posting it. I've sent the same request to PRAY. Their quick response was that the person who needed to investigate was currently at Philmont and will not return until 8/16. In regards the connection to BSA, the PRAY representatives in the booth were both Scouters in uniform. The one who seemed to be running the booth was

Did anybody else see the "anti-atheist" newspaper article posted for several days on the left side wall of the PRAY exhibit in the Jamboree relationships tent? I went to the booth one afternoon to get information about the Community of Christ religious medals and was directed, instead, to a newspaper article on the wall about an atheist Eagle Scout from the Seattle area who was dropped a couple of years ago. I was a bit shocked that PRAY and/or BSA would think it appropriate to attack anyone. The representative there, however, said that the article had been authorized by PRAY and that P

"I wonder what kind of outcries and criticisms we'd be hearing if this Jamboree took place 25 or 30 years ago?" Hmmmm... Good question. You mean before the internet? Back when news spin could be controlled simply by the reporters you invite to an event -- as opposed to spun by thousands of people with differing perspectives and cheap access to a media band of infinite capacity? I'm guessing that the outcries and criticisms would be locally heard but missing globally. Scouts and Scouters would not have any ability to compare their perspectives against others and, lacking val

>"overwhelming acceptance and approval of the President that was >displayed by the over 70,000 people in attendance" As part of 2005 Jambo staff, I was sitting there that day in the crowd for Bush's visit. The audience responded loudly to the specific references he made to Scouting but to little else. Bush spoke neutrally about most things avoiding his platform, politics, and the war. His statements supporting the families of the fallen Scout leaders and the Defense of Scouting bill were the biggest applause getters. I'm sure that some people were awed by the view of the Pre

In regards the heat index and it's impact, I've been trying to locate something authoritative. This site from the Austin School district is the best I've seen so far: http://www.austin.isd.tenet.edu/academics/docs/Health_Heat_Index_Chart.pdf The newspaper articles from Richmond mentioned that the heat index was between 105 and 115 that afternoon. Here's the description from that site for that range: "Sunstroke, heat cramps, or heat exhaustion likely, and heatstroke possible with prolonged exposure and/or physical activity." They also note here that direct sun can add up t

Thanks Lenape. I received the 2,100 and other figures I mentioned above from the fire-fighters in the subcamp next to us -- about a day later. They had been involved in some sort of damage assessment and were quite upset about the risks that were taken.

"What was it that we did to make ourselves look bad?? " We made ourselves look bad because we put our own boys in danger. There was already a red-level heat alert in place that day as well as afternoon thunderstorm warnings. Both of these alerts had been published in the staff jambo update that very same day. Other outdoor activities had already been canceled because of the heat. I don't know what logic the Jamboree safety people used to determine that it was unsafe to allow most physical activity but that it was safe to put tens of thousands of boys into that arena in those condi

Just returned from my 2.5 weeks on the 2005 Jamboree staff. Wow! How we can blame the liberal media for anything in this is way beyond me. I was at the opening Jamboree arena show and, along with hundreds of others, assisted in the treatment and evacuation of Scouts affected by heat exhaustion. There was plenty of water in the arena but no amount of water can protect all people from long security lines, 2-3 hours in the direct sun, an enclosed arena, a heat index of 110 degrees (or more), and no air movement. Fat or not, many people are going to be affected. Even staff members were i

'I think the conversation should change to "How to we keep from making Scouting a death sport?" Any ideas?' Thanks to LPC_Thumper for getting us back on track. I've been on Jamboree staff for the past few weeks and just got back last night. I'll leave the bad press coming out of Jamboree for somebody else but I must say that the sound of ambulance sirens wailing all night long after the arena show fiasco was pretty haunting. In response to Thumper's question, I think that one way we can prevent Scouting from being such a risky proposition is to first rigorously enforce the safety s