concerned_scout66

I think you might be remembering references to Jonathan Hubble, the 15 YO Scout who was found last week after spending 2-3 days lost in the mountains above Fresno. In both situations, however, these boys both violated even the most basic rules about being found. Brennan Hawkins was just too young to have ever been allowed on that trip. Jon Hubble was 15, prepared, experienced, and convinced that he could self-rescue himself. I don't think I've ever seen both ends of the spectrum show up in the same month. Concerned

OK, somebody in the LDS Church is noticing that LDS Boy Scouts are dying at a phenomenal rate. This article was found on the BYU News site. They've come to the same basic conclusions that we have -- this is an LDS Leadership problem. One statistic they report here, however, is that the average tenure for an LDS Scouter is 7-9 months whereas tenure for a non-LDS Scouter is 5-12 years. Mormons are meticulous record-keepers and they own BYU so I assume this is probably based on fact. Scary, that... --------------------------- Scouting accidents rarer than they may seem By Rachel Nelson Daily Universe Staff Reporter - 7 Jul 2005 Garrett Bardsley has been missing in the Uinta Mountains since August 2004. Brennan Hawkins was lost and found in the area mid-June this summer. Luke Sanburg fell into the Yellowstone River and has been missing since June 24. All three names are familiar to national audiences, but are even more familiar to members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The three boys, ages 11 to 13, all experienced something terrible on a scouting trip. And all were members of the church. Now, another scout has been added to the list. Chase Hathenbruck, 15, drowned last week in the Animas River in New Mexico while rafting with his varsity scout team that was chartered to the church. John Gailey of the Utah National Parks Council, which heads the Boy Scouts in Utah County, said that despite the few recent accidents, there are more than 500,000 scouts camping each year, and nearly all of them come home safely. Safety is most important to us, Gailey said. Weve been asked if we should even take youth out. One core part of the program is to challenge scouts outdoors. But those few incidents are still a major concern for those involved with the scouts. Of the eight scouting fatalities across the country during the last year, five have been church members. Despite these accidents, church leaders will continue to run the chartered scouting programs as they always have, said Scott Trotter, church spokesman. He said that though the situation may need to be evaluated, they are relying on the Boy Scouts for any extra training that is needed. Even when you follow the rules, mishaps occur, Trotter said. But were sticking with it. The church is not the largest organization chartered by the Boy Scouts of America, Gailey said. Other organizations around the country, including other churches, parent-teacher associations and community organizations sponsor Boy Scout charters. A condition of the charter is that the organizations obey the bylaws of the program and provide their own leaders and meeting places. Leadership is the biggest problem with the churchs involvement in the scouting program, said Brad Harris, associate professor of recreational management and youth leadership. Harris worked professionally with the Boy Scouts for 23 years before coming to BYU to teach scouting education classes. Most of the problems were not scout problems, they were church problems, in my opinion, Harris said. Often leaders fail to obey the rules set for scouting activities, Harris said. They take scouts four-wheeling and shooting paintball guns, though they are not activities promoted by the program or covered by its insurance. The main difference I see is, outside of the church, people join scouting because they want to be in it, said Clint Lawton, a senior in the scouting education program. Inside the church, boys join because they are deacons. Whether thats good or bad, I will leave to someone else. Lawton was at the camp in the Uintas when Bardsley went missing last year. The 12-year-old wasnt at an official scout camp when he was lost, Lawton said. The boys are a lot safer when they are at official camps where rules are in place, Lawton said. Tenure problems are also inherent with scouting leaders within the church, Harris said. The tenure of a church scout leader is, on average, seven to nine months. Outside of the church, leaders often volunteer for five to 12 years. Church leaders are there primarily because it is their calling, while scout leaders outside the church are true volunteers, Harris said. Harris said he has noticed a difference in how church leaders promote safety within the scouting program during the last two years. Lately the church has focused more on safety, Harris said. The general Young Mens presidency has created a presentation and has visited places around the world promoting safe scouting. Lawton said the rules and scout policies are all in place, but its how closely leaders and scouts follow those rules that matter. The number of scouts that get hurt is so miniscule, Lawton said. I dont think they need any more rules, just more training.

I was following up another report of a Scouting related death in Grand Canyon on 7/2/2005 when I ran across the following article from the Salt Lake Tribune. It is referring to a boy that is already on the list of dead LDS Scouts but has far more information. If you care about this topic you will want to read this. -------------------------------------------------------------- The bet was worth $5. To win, Kristoffer Jones needed to crawl onto a steep ledge - 800 feet from the base of Zion Canyon - and scratch his name onto the side of a cliff. The guest of a Provo Boy Scout troop hiking in Zion National Park on June 25, the 14-year-old California boy was determined to win the wager, bragging to a number of his new friends that he would do so. Boy Scouts are taught to eschew risky behavior, but none of the Scouts who knew of the bet tried to stop Kristoffer from collecting. According to investigative reports, one Scout who watched Jones crawl onto the ledge simply told the boy: "Don't die." Moments later, Jones was lying dead on the canyon floor. Kristoffer was not a Scout (with this unit), but had been invited to participate in the trip with a troop from Provo, where he often spent the summers visiting family. A longtime Scouting advocate whose sons all participated in the program, Rene Doria approved when asked to allow his nephew to accompany about 40 Scouts on their trip to Zion. Now, Doria wonders why there was not better supervision of the boys and why the other Scouts - knowing of the bet - did not police themselves. "If they knew about it, they should have addressed it," Doria said. "Anything motivating dangerous and daring action should have been addressed immediately." The reports do not identify the Scouts who made the $5 dare. At least one of the four boys who were near Kristoffer when he fell told investigators he knew of the bet but "can't remember" the names of the Scouts involved, according to the reports. Washington County sheriff's Chief Deputy Rob Tersigni said several Scouts had used rocks to write their names on the rugged landscape, but said he didn't know whether any other boys had tried to crawl onto the ledge before Kristoffer. Tersigni said photographs taken by a witness shortly before the accident show several boys standing on a ledge behind Kristoffer on Angels Landing, a towering rock formation and landmark in Zion Canyon. The witness told police he saw the Scouts "running around and jumping between rocks." They did not have an adult supervisor and he told them to be careful. He said his warnings were ignored. Later, the witness saw three of the Scouts walking back down the trail and overheard one of them say, "He's probably hurt or dead," according to reports from the Washington County Sheriff's Office and the National Park Service. The reports indicate Scout leader Michael Horito arrived at Angels Landing several minutes after Kristoffer fell. Zion Chief Ranger Cheto Olais confirmed that the boys were on the formation without supervision. Three other photos, obtained by Jones' family and provided to The Tribune, show the boy alone on the ledge with a water bottle in his hands. "It was so hard to see, as I opened the pictures in my e-mail, because he is such a good looking boy," Doria said. "He was just so peaceful-looking on that hill." Park authorities said the boys were hundreds of feet off the trail, near the summit, when Kristoffer fell. According to the report, Kristoffer was about 6 feet from the nearest Scout and was scooting along a steep slope when he lost his footing. Only one of the boys told police he saw Kristoffer fall, but several heard him scream, the reports say. Kristoffer's family members say they spoke to the father of one of four Scouts who, following the fall, linked arms and leaned far over the edge to see if they could spot Kristoffer. "That could have been another tragedy because there was no one there to supervise them. It makes me cringe to think about," Doria said. Washington County District Attorney Brock Belnap said his office would review the reports but did not expect to file any criminal charges. Executives for the Boy Scouts' Orem-based National Parks Council, which facilitated the trip, said individual Scouts and their leaders may be disciplined. After reviewing the reports Friday night, unit-level Boy Scout executive Gaylun Smith said he would make an effort "to find out who did what." "So far nobody seems to want to admit it on this end," he said. "It's really sad for the boys who did this, because even if no action is ever taken, they will have to live with this - and they have a lot of life left to live." Council spokesman John Gailey said Scouting rules clearly state that supervisors should take extra precautions in dangerous areas such as the Angels Landing trail, "and common sense tells me you would want leaders close by at least in visible range," he said. Smith said at least one of the leaders who accompanied the Scouts to Zion has "changed callings" in the wake of the tragedy. Smith said the change was not mandated by the Boy Scouts. Gailey said the idea of Scouts daring another youth to perform a dangerous stunt was discomfiting. "That is certainly not what we would want our Scouters to be exercising," he said. In light of the accident in Zion and a more recent incident in the Uinta Mountains in which a 12-year-old Scout disappeared, Gailey said the council was encouraging all of its units to review its safety rules throughout the month of September. Doria said Kristoffer's mother is considering taking legal action against the Scout troop and its leaders for leaving the boys unsupervised. "There was obvious neglect," he said. "We don't want any more boys to die. We have this feeling of comfort when we bring these boys out there. I would much rather they be more aware of the things, the possibly dangerous things, these boys can do." ----------------------------------------------- It just keeps getting worse and worse. Concerned

Deseret News published the following summary of Scouting accidents in Utah a couple of years ago: Lost Scouts, rescues pop up often in news W.V. Scout is found in the Uintas" Aug. 1, 2004. "Four Scouts are found happy and prepared" July 18, 2003. "Missing Boy Scouts did the right thing, rescuer says" June 30, 2003. "Angel on lost Scout's shoulder? 'Indiana Jones' found Scout, flew him out of the woods" July 15, 2001. "Rescue teams locate 4 lost, unharmed Scouts" May 9, 2001. "Rescuers find 2 Scouts after 12-hour search" June 29, 2000. "Orem troop heeded Scout motto in crisis" Aug. 16, 1998. "Lightning near King's Peak kills Scoutmaster, injures 2" July 19, 1997. "Provo Scout injured in fall on mountain" June 23, 1995. "Chopper rescues Scout lost in wilds area" July 16, 1994. "Missing Boy Scouts found safe in canyon" Nov. 22, 1992. "Heroic teamwork saves life of Boy Scout taken ill in Uintas" Aug. 4, 1992. "Layton Scout loses footing, falls to death in canyon" June 21, 1992. "2 Utah Boy Scouts killed by lightning" Aug. 3, 1991. "3 Boy Scouts killed, 14 hurt as van rolls down hillside near Cedar City" July 14, 1991. "2 lost Boy Scouts found after search in the Uintas" July 2, 1991. I don't know that these are actually LDS units and I'm planning to review the microfilm in a couple of months when I travel to Utah to see some family. Statistically, however, I have little doubt that most are LDS. Unfortunately, I've also received information about a few more LDS Scout deaths/injuries/rescues that Deseret News missed. Here's one: -------------------- Boy Scout dies after jumping off pickup SANDY A Boy Scout collecting flags at the end of the Memorial Day weekend died Monday night after jumping off the back of a pickup and hitting his head on the pavement. Pat Walters, 14, was riding in the back of the truck with his 11-year-old brother, rounding up the flags about 8:30 p.m. His troop had put the flags on lawns earlier in the day. One of the troop leaders was driving, Sandy Police Lt. Kevin Thacker said. Near 8600 South and 600 East, the brother jumped off the back of the truck, which was moving no more than 10 mph, to collect a flag, Thacker said. The boy stumbled and hit the ground. Walters thought his brother was injured and jumped off the truck to help. He temporarily landed on his feet, then fell backwards and hit his head on the road, Thacker said. Walters was flown to a local hospital, but he died while en route, Thacker said. The brother was taken by ambulance to a hospital for observation. He suffered only minor injuries. ----------- The carnage just keeps coming...

Yesterday, I received a personal email regarding this thread from johndaigler -- someone who sees things more clearly than I do and to whom I am indebted. He's agreed to let me share this part with everyone. > > I think you might be leaving the thread too early. The crowd > has tried to help you think your way through the "identifying > the problem" stage. Mostly guesswork, educated, > but guesswork. Now, you are going to move on to the "do > something about it" stage. This is where the campfire crowd > really might be helpful. There are good ways to approach this > next step and there are bad ways. Amongst the crowd, they've > already tried most of them. Don't go off on your own just when > their experiences might actually be practical and useful. > > Fighting City Hall is best done by a city - not one person. > I knew my chances of getting BSA and the LDS Church to even look to see if there was a problem were pretty low by myself but I foolishly marched off into that wilderness without my fellow Scouters (my buddies) anyway. Thanks John. I'm glad you were there to get me back on the trail and pointed in the right direction. So, assuming that you, the reader, are interested in helping to solve this problem, let's see if we can agree on an initial problem statement. Once we flesh that out, we can work on good methods to solve these problems. Please keep in mind that I am LDS here so I may not hit as hard as might be appropriate. It's a fine line I walk... PROBLEM STATEMENT ------------------ 1. Several recent high-profile preventable Scouting related deaths have brought unwanted national scrutiny upon BSA. This has raised safety concern levels among Scouters and parents alike. 2. An unofficial survey, using available news sources, seems to indicate that the proportion of preventable Scouting deaths in the LDS Scout population is much higher than in the non-LDS Scout population. This unofficial survey also seems to indicate that this is not a recent phenomenon. 3. Scouters have theorized about potential causes but are unable to confirm whether LDS Scouts actually run a higher risk of death than non-LDS Scouts. ---------- OK, fellow Scouters, does this adequately describe the problem? If not, how can it be improved? Please don't jump to solutions and approaches quite yet. We'll get there... Rick

FrankJ is right, this topic has been worked over pretty well. It's time to take action and fix somethin'. It may be hard to accept but I think, as an aggregate, we LDS leaders are the reason that our boys are dying at a greater rate. It could be luck or terrain but I can't find a single case of a lost/dead non-LDS Scout in the Rocky Mountain states while we lose them left and right. Now I just have to prove this to BSA and the church by clear and convincing evidence -- and not get myself excommunicated in the process. I'll start with National for a list of names/dates/units/CO's and then work out from there. If National turns me down I'll hit all 300+ Councils. Photocopies, envelopes, and stamps are cheap, right? Much thanks to all who have participated in this thread. Rick

BadenP: Welcome fellow Washingtonian! In my experience, most of the LDS Scout leaders serve about 2 years. My father, brothers, and I have served much longer by choice. Unfortunately, many LDS Scouters never complete training while others jump ahead and complete Woodbadge even before being trained for their actual positions. I know, I know... One correction. We do sort of blend religion & Scouting as you mention but LDS boys are called to serve a mission at 19 -- not 18. We don't use Scouting to train the missionaries either as they are trained in a completely different program after they have accepted their calling. This was done for decades in Provo just off the BYU campus but is now expanding worldwide.

Here is more about the boy that was knocked into the Yellowstone River this weekend. http://www.helenair.com/articles/2005/06/27/montana/a01062705_01.txt I've seen another site that has less detail but says the search is being scaled back.

I would like to believe that BSA won't take any action to pressure the LDS Church but stranger things have happened. On other stances over the past 15 years, however, BSA has lost far more than 12% of it's membership and certainly more than 12% of it's private funding. I just hope that it doesn't take a national scandal on the news about this problem to make us in the church do something about it.

Bob, Yes, that's what I see in this list too: inappropriate activities, poor safety precautions, poor leadership judgement. Even if it does not represent the entire population, these are serious lapses. Voyageur, Agree on 1 and 2 but would sure hate to see 3. We've worked real hard to get away from the "cult" label and a big part of that has been our involvement/support with/for BSA. We're very proud of the number of LDS Eagle Scouts and throw those statistics around all the time. When was the last time you heard about a Royal Ranger award?

Scouters, let's please keep this civil. I brought up this topic because our fellow Scouts are dying here. There is lots of good input on the table but no clear answers. Let's keep the input coming... Are there any other LDS Scouters out there? In your experiences, are there things about the way we implement the program that may be causing this? I'm not sure that I'm willing to accept that difficult terrain is the reason that our boys are not using safety gear, are wandering around the wilderness without buddies, supplies, or even basic knowledge about how to be found, or get knocked into a river while vandalizing a national park. It might be a factor but how much of one? Thanks

I agree that we need more data about Scout deaths before we can infer that this is an LDS problem. I've been worrying about this situation now for a long time but just started researching it after the $14 million fire thing happened in 2002. I guess having 2 LDS Scouts die in very different circumstances on the same weekend just sort of pushed me over the edge. Does anybody know of any non-LDS Scouts that have died under preventable circumstances? I don't mean lightning strikes, tree falls, cannon explosions, etc. These were obviously accidents.

In regards the LDS program (the question above from SR540Beaver), there are some big differences for LDS Scouts: - LDS boys start Cubs on their 8th birthday as Wolves. They become Boy Scouts on their 11th birthday. That means they spend 1 year as a Wolf, 1 year as a Bear, and 1 year as a Webelos. At 11 they become what used to be called "Blazers" but is now known as "11 year old Scouts". - LDS boys are usually broken into smaller groups that meet separately and have their own leadership structures. The 11YO, 12-13YO, 14-15YO, and 16-17YO Scouts are often different units (Scouts, Varsity, Explorers, etc.) within the same Ward. This makes the units very small. This is the reason that the LDS Church makes up like 30% of all Scouting units but only accounts for 12% of the boys. - We do not camp on Sundays and, outside of Utah/Idaho, many LDS boys never attend summer camp. In regards the question above from cajuncody, LDS leaders have the same training requirements as non-LDS leaders but sometimes don't have the same desire or backgrounds that the average non-LDS Scouter would have. These are good people who want the best for their Scouts but they don't necessarily come to the program because they have an interest in Scouting or the experience/desire to be a leader. LDS Scout leaders are "called" by their bishop to serve in a leadership position instead of volunteering. Outside the church I see Scoutmasters that may average 5-7 years experience as Scout Leaders by the time their sons are 14 YO. Inside the church, it is much less. I'm old and have continued to volunteer because I want to. One other factor here is that we need more leaders because of the way our boys are broken apart by age group. These age groupings are important to the church because they correspond to priesthood levels but I've never understood why this grouping was imposed on the Scouting units. The boys never get a chance to really become leaders because they don't have the same number of younger boys coming in. I feel a bit like a traitor writing this stuff. We need to figure out a way to make this system work or change it. I love my church but children are dying here! Rick

Just in case people haven't been following the news, I was able to find the following list in just a couple of hours on the Internet. There were several others but I wasn't able to verify absolutely that they were LDS units. If you know about any other LDS boys that have died while on Scouting trips, please forward them along. 1. Luke Sanburg, 13, LDS. From Montana. Fell into Yellowstone River in June 2005 during troop outing while attempting to "push logs" into the river with the rest of the boys. Search is on-going at this time. 2. Jeffrey Kenneth Lloyd, 17, LDS. From Idaho. Killed on Scout outing after falling from zip-line in June 2005. Lloyd does not appear to have been wearing a safety harness or helmet. Still researching this. 3. Brennan Hawkins, 11, LDS. Lost in Uinta Mountains while participating with older Varsity scouts in a climbing outing. Hawkins was not supervised and had no buddy. He was found 4 days later after a massive search. 4. Garrett Bardsley, 12, LDS. Lost in Uinta Mountains in mid-August 2004 after walking away from his Troop to get some dry shoes. Body never found. This boy was trained in Wilderness Survival but walked away from the area without a buddy, without any supplies, and wearing only cotton. 5. William Dunn, 13, LDS Troop 195 from West Valley City, UT. Lost during troop hiking trip in Uinta mountains for 2-3 days in early August 2004. This boy survived despite attempting to move cross country to rejoin his unit. 6. Cody Clawson, 13, LDS. Troop 241 from Huntsville, UT. Lost during troop camping trip in Wyoming in June 2002? Eventually found personally by Harrison Ford who joined the search crew with his helicopter. 7. Jared Negrete, 13, LDS Troop 538 from El Monte, CA. Lost in CA San Gorgonio Wilderness in 1991 during a troop hike. This boy fell behind his group and was left by his Scout leader to pick up on the return trip. Body never found. 8. Kristoffer Jones, 14, LDS Scout from Long Beach, CA but participating as a guest of an LDS troop from Provo, UT. Died in Zion National Park, UT in June 2004. Jones was unsupervised at the time and fell about 1,000 feet to his death. 9. David Phillips, 15, LDS Scout from Bountiful, UT. Died in July 1996 from heat exhaustion and dehydration in Grand Canyon after his troop ran out of water while hiking the canyon. The remaining 7 members of his party also had to be evacuated by helicopter. They had walked right past the signs warning them about water precautions. 10. David Fleischer and LeRoy Kim Ellis, Adult Explorer Leaders, LDS from Utah. Drowned in July 1993 after descending into a slot canyon in Kolob Canyon, UT on a post outing. The group should have canceled the trip after finding water levels much higher than normal but did not. Survivors sued the National Park Service and others for $24.5 million claiming that "they should have been warned." 11. Jesse Rampenthal, 12, LDS Scout from Gridley, CA. Rampenthal died in 1998 after falling from a steep outcropping in the Sierra Nevada mountains in California. This boy had a cast on 1 of his hands at the time yet was unsupervised and unsecured during the climb. His mother sued the LDS Church for failure to provide adequate supervision and settled for an amount described as "substantial, but less than 1 million dollars."

Dear Carol, That could definitely be a factor but I'm not sure it could explain everything. Literally dozens of LDS Scouts have been killed in UT, WY, and MT but the Scouts that die in CA, PA, TX, and other places seem to be predominantly LDS as well. It sure would be nice to have a complete survey of Scouting deaths to see if there was any commonality by region or other factor. Thanks, Rick

I am an LDS Scout leader in Washington State. I was a Cub Scout and Boy Scout as a youth. I've been active as a Scouter now for about 20 years. Over the past few decades I've noticed that a large percentage of the deaths that occur on Scout outings are associated with LDS units. There have been 2 deaths in the past 2 days: 1 LDS Scout fell from a zip-line, 1 LDS Scout fell into the Yellowstone River. I know that LDS youth make up about 12% of all Scouts but it appears that we make up more like 70% of the accidents. Is this your impression as well? I believe this is a training issue on our part but want to make sure it's not just me that believes this.