CNYScouter

As I hold my lighter high above my head the cry goes out: FREEBIRD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Ship we just chartered is in a different District than the one my sons Troop is in. Even though he has made so inaccurate statements in the past Im being to think hes starting to get it. One thing he said to me about Venturing Crews that many have been started by SMs as a favor to a DE to get a new unit listed, thus they are started with the minimum numbers and many only exist on paper. He no longer looks for Troops to start crews as he as realized that they just dont last. Last week while at the council office and finishing the paperwork to charter the ship the DE and I went into a conference room with a large whiteboard on one of the walls. On the top of this was written NEW UNITS and below was a section for each District. Every district had 10 to 12 new units listed by type and CO (ex. Pack XYZ Church) except this DE district. In his section it only had the Ship and a Pack listed. I asked him why. He said there were two reasons: 1-In the last 5 years he had started as many new units in his district as the rest of the others DEs combined. he said one DE hadn't started a new unit in 5 years. 2-The main reason was his numbers were up. He no longer thought more units = more kids. He was spending his time making sure the units he had were running quality programs that were recruiting and keeping kids in the program instead of spending his time creating more mediocre units and his numbers proved it worked. He went on to say the other DEs just hadnt figured this out yet. And this shows you can have it both ways.

emb021- I have downloaded the document. I didn't see the section you quoted. However I did see where it suggests that elections be held at the Ships 3rd meeting Thanks

I cant say that I am an expert in Venturing but I the Ship is not my first experience with the program. I also talked with a couple of Venturing Advisors in the area about their program or the lack of one. The Crew that I was first associated with was not much more than a group of friends that wanted to do things together. This worked well for the first few months, but without any structure or goals it quickly became boring. Even though the youth said they just wanted to do activities there wasnt enough of a challenge to keep them interested and things fell apart. I talked with other Advisors who said that they saw the same type of things. I think the reason that Crews that use the Advancement program are successful as it sets goals and gives purpose to the crew along with some type of structure to make it interesting and keep things going. And it can be FUN too.

emb021- I have seen this but the Sea Scout Web site shows a different procedure to start a ship and has been the one we have been following Step #6 The first 3 months of meetings and activities are planned and scheduled. Step #7 -Young adults are recruited to join the Ship. Step #8 - The Ship is chartered by the BSA council. Step #9 - The new Ship members elect petty officers as soon as possible. Which way is correct? Which way works better?

I had had a couple of kids contact me about becoming ship officers (and we haven't even had our first meeting yet) I do want the ship to be run by the youth and I think the sooner the better, however having them take over unprepared won't be good either. Not knowing many of the kids before hand, I had tentatively scheduled elections for Sept. My first impression for a couple of them is that could take over sooner. How long should the ship be together before holding elections?

I have thought of the suggestions you have made; I just didnt see these as the way to put pride into the unit. My concern is I think I have a good idea on doing this with the Scout age guys however I am not sure how the young ladies fit in. One thing we have discussed doing is having sailboat races with some other youth sailing programs in the area. The guys are all gong-ho to do this; the young ladies are so-o about it and would be just happy to get together and just sail. Making it challenging is the one area it want to work on. One thing I am seeing with Troops is that many leaders seem to be afraid to challenge or have high expectations of the kids, as they seem to think that the kids will leave if they do Yet this is the one of the main reason kids are not staying with Scouting. Having a new unit with no youth leaders yet (and not sure if anyone is ready to step up into these roles right away) how does a leader start to get the youth to grasp the idea that this is their Ship? I know this is the key to having a successful program, but I have yet to be involved with a unit that has really accomplished this so I have no real practical experience to make this happen.

Eamonn, I am beginning to understand what you are going through as I am running into the same issues. One of the things my son has asked was about having competitions with other crews. It seems that our council tried to organize Venturing events but couldnt get any crews to attend. The same thing happened to Venturing Roundtables. Now that we have a the ship and few crews not associated with Troops they may try again but this is something I will have be the driving force behind if it is going to happen. I am not sure about Venturing Advancement awards in our council but it wouldnt surprise me if the same thing were true here also. Let us know if you are successful in getting Crews interested in doing Advancement. I remember from training that it was said that the more successful Crews are the ones that work on the Venturing Awards. Im curious, why did the ship select the Ranger Award over Sea Scout advancement?

As a youth in Scouting I remember thinking that my troop and patrol was the best. This one thing I haven't seen in the troops around here, itd just another activity. My son decided to try sports this year. He had the same coach for football and track. One thing I was impressed with the great job he did bringing the kids together as a team. And the performance showed it. We are a small school and they played against the biggest schools in the area. The other schools football teams often had 3 times the kids - same with the track team. The football team went 6-1 with the only loss to the biggest school in the area by 1 point. The track team went undefeated. With a new Sea Scout Ship starting up any tips to bring this type of pride to the unit?

trailfinder52 I think I know what you are trying to say. Even though My DE often comes off misinformed (especially about the Sea Scouts, but he is learning) the one thing he has figured out about the Venturing Program is to stop looking at Troops to start a Crew. There are a few Troops in the district that have Crews that have a High Adventure focus. The DE has started looking at non-traditional organizations to charter Crews. The Sea Scout Ship, chartered by a Yacht/Sailing Club, is the 13th Crew in the district, This is equal to the number in the rest of our council. The ship just picked up a couple of more kids and my son is the only Scout. In the district there is an indoor Golf Dome that has a Golf Crew, Gander Mountain has a Crew that does Archery at its indoor range, there is a Civil War reenactment Crew, a new crew charter by a gun club that does skeet shooting, and a couple more that are doing things along these lines. All of these Crews are actively recruiting and pulling in youth with no Scouting experience and are most are doing very well. I think this is what the Venturing Program was meant to be and what it needs to be successful.

I found it amusing that this was the way this ship was beng described. What I think is happening is that the schooner is still being restored so the unit isn't going to doing much in the way of boating/sailing until it is finished. What is "the Advanced Seamanship Course"?

What are the responsibilities/duties for the District Chairman and District Commissioner? In another thread it was suggested that I contact these people to help start up the new ship. About 6 weeks ago, after the DE told me if you want a UC for the ship you will have to recruit one yourself I contacted the DC about a finding someone to work with the CO to help them better understand Scouting. The response I got was if I can find someone Ill let you know. Havent heard anything from him since. The District Web Sitet doesnt list a District Chairman, but there is a name with no contact information listed in the council newsletter. I just found out last night the District Chairman is the insurance person for the CO. Hes known about the trying to get a Ship started for months there but hes never contacted me about the unit. It seems all I hear from council (both volunteers and professionals) is the need to boost enrollment and the need to start new units but it seems there is very little effort into doing so. I just dont get it.

I just got back from my council office and finished the paperwork for the charter We are now officially a Sea Scout Ship! While there I was told there is another Ship being chartered in the council. Well, they are not starting out as a Sea Scout Ship, but a Venturing Crew, but are being registered as a Ship?????????? They will be located about 1-1/2 hours north of me. There is a group that is restoring a 2 masted- schooner that was built sometime in the 1800s. The council spent 2 years trying to get a group started there and my DE said that seeing another ship being started sparked them to get moving. I have also been told there may be a few more ships in our council on the way.

The thread What is your Council doing to address declining Membership?, fotoscouts posting ,and along with trying to organize a new unit got me thinking about attracting youth to scouting. I my district a troop has been started. This was started in an area where there was already 5 troops and with only one pack to feed them. This new troop now makes 6 Troops this pack feeds. It seems that the WEB leaders from last year didnt like any of these troops so they took the 12 kids that were crossing over and started a new Troop. They are now down to 6 Scouts. They have now been around for 3 SM training courses and no one from the Troop has taken this yet. I just found out my sons troop has started a Venturing Crew. Im pretty sure none for the leaders of this have had Venturing Leaders Specific training as our council hasnt run the training in 2 or 3 years. I would seem to me requiring at least a couple of leaders to have some training would be a good idea when starting off a new unit especially with a non-existent Commissioner Corp. I dont see how this helps increase membership by just starting unit after unit if they dont know how to run a quality program. How does your council handle new units and training?

John-in-KC, DE has said they can print a charter off but depending how busy the office is will depend if they can do it right away. When doing charter presentations the council produces a nicely printed frameable charter and that is the reason they have asked for a couple of days to get it done. I am not sure what the hold up is on the COR. The Exec officer of the Club has asked me at least 4 times what a COR does. I've given him a printed job description three times. The man;s not stupid. He's a professor at a med school. I have had the rest of the paperwork and applications done for almost a month. My real concern is that we are now losing kids over the delay. A month ago the CO had me meet with some kids who seemed very interested in joining. The DE saw them at a COH the other night. Because things have taken so long they have found other things already to do this summer and said they would perhaps check us out again when we start doing things.

Yah, thank goodness for nld and eaglebeader offerin' a bit of rationality in the face of all the amateur attorneys on the forum. Quacking sometimes means you're a duck and sometimes means you're a quack. Seems like CNY's troop does a fine job of communicatin' when something is a troop event and when it's a parent/child event. A good enough job that CNY understands it clearly, and it seems like the other parents do as well. They also appear to be doin' a good job of doin' swim checks and such. Not sure why everyone's gettin' all riled up. Yah, a non-BSA trip is on either the CO's or the individual parents' responsibility, eh? So what? Get a grip, friends. We have other kids play in our yard and send our kids to birthday parties at the water park without frettin' over predatory lawyers and insurance coverage. Don't you? If it's really run as a parent/child event, with each boy's parent present to supervise, where are all the legal boogeyman arguments comin' from? This is ordinary risk. The only requirement is to be honest and honorable about communication. Seems like CNY's troop is doin' exactly that, sufficient that CNY can make an informed decision about participation. If CNY came to me as a UC, I'd be inclined to suggest findin' another youth program if he/she isn't comfortable with any of the local scouting programs. A boy should be in a program that the parent trusts and can be supportive of. Scoutin' is run by amateurs and volunteers. That might not be a good fit. Yah, and for the record: * CNY's council can make stricter rules than national like requiring a lifeguard on all float trips. Apparently they do. Local councils can also choose not to require tour permits within their council service area. * In the event of a problem, SA really won't help you. As a former river guide, I've yet to see a BSA unit meet the industry norm for standard of care, and that's what's really goin' to matter. SA might hurt you. "All participants in activity afloat must be trained and experienced." Black letter policy, that. So none of us ever take middle school boys or beginners on trips? "All supervisors must complete... rescue training." How many BSA river canoe groups really have every adult and youth leader trained in swiftwater rescue? The G2SS is designed to protect the BSA, eh? It may be used as evidence against the volunteer. Unless, of course, you're runnin' an informal family trip. Beavah- With this statement you are making an assumption: Seems like CNY's troop does a fine job of communicatin' when something is a troop event and when it's a parent/child event. A good enough job that CNY understands it clearly, and it seems like the other parents do as well. The Troop has done nothing to inform parents the ramifications of doing this as a parent/child event. The only reason I understand this as I have attended training (and joined the training staff), posted on this forum and asked questions to learn how the BSA program works. I have also sat though a presentation to a CO by a DE how the BSA insurance works. Most people have no idea how the insurance works or any of the liability issues they can face if something happens by doing thins With a non-participating CO Im pretty sure they have no idea the risk the troop is putting them in doing things this way. I work with woman whose son just crossed over to the Troop. When I tried to explain to her why I wasnt going on this trip her statement to me was since the other troop leaders had more experience than her, she trusted that they were doing things right Our council SA training is exactly what is done online with no added requirements (Ive checked). The CC is someone who took SA, once years ago, is going by memory and cant bother to look what is correct and since no one else has the training they dont know better. In this council the only time a tour permit is not required for a troop is for weekly meeting held in your regular meeting location. If the Troop decides to meet down the street in the park, the council requires a tour permit So Beavah, from your post I get the impression you are saying as long as a Troop declares an event as a parent/child event you can get around following G2SS? A Troop can play paintball, skydiving and do drag racing and not follow the G2SS by just saying this is a wink-wink parent/child event and explaining the risk? From the training I took, if it is promoted in troop meetings, attended by troop members and run by troop leaders its a troop event, no matter what the Troop or anyone says. I would really have question the integrity of a UC, who coming to them with a safety concern, told me that if I didnt like it, to find another troop Arent we as Scout Leaders supposed to follow the G2SS so youth can do these things in a safe environment and so the parents can trust that we are providing that safe environment and not trying to find ways to skirt around things? This is one of just many reasons why I am trying to start a Sea Scout Ship. If the troop is going to skirt the safety issues, not turn in tour permits and not follow G2SS and then I am going to held personally responsible if anything goes wrong, Im not participating.

But again, there are the way things should be done and the way things are being done. I talked with the DE yesterday about this. (He called wanting to know if I had the COR app yet) and I was told that We would be doing this. It seems this DE handles just about everything in the district. When I went to the district Training Chair about find who did the training I was looking for He told me he didnt know who did it. I said this to the DE and he knew someone who could do the training said that if I needed training talk with him he could arrange it. At this point I do not think we will be doing the charter presentation on Sunday anyway. Our council puts together a package when doing these but needs 2 to 3 days after finishing the paper work for chartering to get it together so I dont think there is going to be enough time to do this.

So, As the skipper of the Ship I am not involved with this? As there is no UC for the Ship (if I want one I need to recruit one myself) will the DE play a role? Because this going to be on such a short notice and we haven't even had a Ship meeting yet I'm pretty sure that no youth will be at this. I would like to postpone this until the Ship at least has an activity uniform but this is the only event that has just about the whole club turns out for.

Does any have a charter presentation ceremony the Sea Scout ship can use? After the open house on Sat. the CO asked if we could do this Sunday night at their annual Spaghetti Dinner This is the clubs best-attended event of the year and would like to us do this right after dinner. I am looking for something that is not to fancy or lengthy or anything that will take a great deal of time to prepare for as they still have not appointed a COR.

I should have checked the G2SS first before asking. The e-mail did also say that "Mrs. XXX would be available to give the swimmers test to new scouts that want to go" So non-swimmers are not allowed to go. This really goes to show that since no one else has questioned this that the troop doesn't have anyone else currently trained in SSD/SA and by saying this trip is a "parent/child" outing they can skirt the G2SS. I would talk to our UC if someone could tell me who that is. No one in the troop knows who it is The DC is not sure who it is either and I was told my district doesn't know who all its UC are. I also have no idea who our COR is. I have never meet them and they have never been to a troop function. About the only function they perform is they sign the leader application when one of the committee people bring it to them. All I know is that I am staying as far away from this trip as possible.

You should come to our councils summer camp. Its a bone-jarring 45 min. drive or so back into the Adirondack Mountains down a dirt road. From there it is another 15-20 min. to the nearest town with a fast-food joint (and them only a McDonalds and a pizza place). I think after a day or so of an hour drive each way (and rough on a vehicle) for meal that the catering would stop.

You should come to our councils summer camp. Its a bone-jarring 45 min. drive or so back into the Adirondack Mountains down a dirt road. From there it is another 15-20 min. to the nearest town with a fast-food joint (and them only a McDonalds and a pizza place). I think after a day or so of an hour drive each way (and rough on a vehicle) for meal that the catering would stop.

Has it ever been required for Safety Afloat that a person must have BSA Lifeguard certification for a canoe trip? CC inisits that when he took Safety Afloat it was required and it must have changed. The main resoan I won't attend this is becuase if the CC thinks that for the Troop to go canoeing they need someone with a BSA Lifeguard certification and by calling it a "parent/child" activity they can get around the G2SS. FScouter said: Nobody is fooled by that lame idea. Parents aren't fooled, nor are the attorneys they will hire to sue the troop, the council, and the Scout leaders involved if an accident occurs. Sure they are. No one else in this troop has any complaints about doing it this way. If they were I think someone else would step up and say something. I am not planning being around this group much longer. Once the Sea Scout Ship is up and running I am not going to have much to do with this bunch

I recived an e-mail about a June canoe trip for my son's troop and part of this said: This would have to be a parent/scout trip if we have no one with BSA Lifeguard certification. From the Guide to Safe Scouting: 1. Qualified Supervision All activity afloat must be supervised by a mature and conscientious adult age 21 or older who understands and knowingly accepts responsibility for the well-being and safety of the children in his or her care, who is experienced and qualified in the particular watercraft skills and equipment involved in the activity, and who is committed to compliance with the nine points of BSA Safety Afloat. One such supervisor is required for each 10 people, with a minimum of two adults for any one group. At least one supervisor must be age 21 or older, and the remaining supervisors must be age 18 or older. All supervisors must complete BSA Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense training and rescue training for the type of watercraft to be used in the activity, and at least one must be trained in CPR. It is strongly recommended that all units have at least one adult or older youth member currently trained as a BSA Lifeguard to assist in the planning and conducting of all activity afloat. This says that it is recommended but not required to have someone trained as a BSA Lifeguard so I don't see where this is coming from. The CPR is not an issue as we have Doctors, nurses and a couple of EMT's as leaders. To me just because the Troops says its a parent/child activity doesn't make it a non-Troop activity and the G2SS needs to be followed. The CC also uses the "parent/child activity" as a reason to not fill a tour permit for this. (I know my son or I won't be going on this trip)

Crew Officer Briefing (Quarterdeck training) or VLSC Is it better for a new crew(ship)starting up to do one of these before the other?