CNYScouter

FScouter- As a trainer how do you get the point across about the Patrol Method? In reading the sylabus for SM leader Specifc and the Outdoor Skills training we are doing a good job following them. In our Training everything is being done by patrols. There are patrol competitions, cooking and instruction by patrols. Yet, when I talk with other Troop leaders, even the ones who had had the training, very few understand the Patrol method. When I was looking for a new Troop, I visited a Troop that had 2 Eagles as leaders (SM and a CM). The CC, an ASM and one the committee memebers all had Wood Badge. The UC for this unit was the District Training Chair. I was very disappointed when I saw they had Patrol A, B, and C. Yes, this was the patrols assigned names. In the meeting I attended they were putting together patrols of the boys who were attending the next campout. They spent the whole Troop meeting, as a one group, deciding on a menu. Every Troop I visited, that had over 10 kids, used the "virtual" patrol method. The ones with under 10 kids all had older boys and were ready to fold when their scouts aged out. Scouting is struggling in this area. I feel that this is one of the major reasons. The few Troops that I have talked with are doing a good job and are using the patrol method are booming. I'd join one of these but they are just too far away

Beavah - you are right- I don't think "Bugler" should be used for a POR for Eagle. The requirement clearly state that the POR for Eagle comes from the following list: Patrol leader, assistant senior patrol leader, senior patrol leader, troop guide, Order of the Arrow troop representative, den chief, scribe, librarian, historian, quartermaster, junior assistant Scoutmaster, chaplain aide, or instructor. However I do agrre for Star and Life ranks that a Troop "Bugler" can be used as the special leadership project. The real problem I have is when Troops, like my son's, require nothing for the POR's. They have a Chaplins Aide and an Assistant Chaplin Aide, but no Chaplin. My son was made the CA in Sept. No one told him what he was require for this. The only thing he had to do was to read some at a COH, which was given to him by an adult in the Troop. It's now 6 months later and he has enogh time in for his POR for Life. In the year we have been in the Troop the SPL (serves 1 year term) has made only 2 camping trips and summer camp. The same is true for the two ASPL's. They show up for about half the weekily meetings and there have been times none are there. He will recieve credit for his Eagle POR. This type of troop should not be a problem for you "tweekers". The adults in my son's troop know that this is not the way it should be done but have decided to make changes where ever they feel. The funny thing is that I have the minutes from the Troops adult annual planning sessions for the last 3 years. The number one issue on every one for these was improving youth leadership in the Troop. This is just one of these units that is spending all of its time trying to figure out a program to run instead of learning how to run the program as intended by the BSA.

FScouter - you are right about "You don't have enough lifetimes to demonstrate why all the bad ideas people dream up don't work" However, it just seems way to common of a practice in the Troops in this area. I think that a demonstration of this makes the point of why not to use them. In both Troops I have been with I have tried to address the issue of "low turn outs" on activities. I think when 6 out 28 scouts go or when the Troop has to cancel a outing because there is no interest in going, there's a problem. However I am the only one who thinks this. Everyone else blows it off as "the scouts are busy with other things" or "the kids today don't like doing the outdoor stuff". If you ask the adult leaders about their troop they have the greatest programs going. Just ask them and they will tell you that. I have been working on staff at SM/Outdoor skills training. I think we do a good job presenting the patrol method however the point is not being made. After reading the syllabus, I have to say I am not real impressed with the section about the patrol method. I have asked Troops about using "virtual" patrols. There seems to be a misconception that a patrol must have 6 to 8 scouts in it. Patrols are combined to meet this. This goes along with the post about using the Troop Method. I have to say that a majority of the units in my district use this over the Troop method.

...your Scout has never recieved a phone call/e-mail from his PL. ...your Scout has been given a POR and no one has told him what he needs to do in the position. ...Scouts are told to "find" their own canoe to bring to go on a canoe trip. ...the Troop has stopped doing patrol meetings at weekly Troop meetings because they were too "noisy". ...when it comes time to elect an SPL, no one wants it because its the only position in the Troop that a Scout is required to actually do something. ...adults select and plan all the camping trips then complain when it is canceled because no scout in the troop wants to go.

Hello telemonster513, Congratulations and welocome to the forum. I don't know much about the LDS program. However, I don't think the patrol method is any different in a LDS Troop. THe LDS units in my council attend the same training as the other Troops. They just finish the Sunday portion at at different time. (There is always one LDS on staff). First I would take SM and the Outdoor Skills Training. Some other resources on the Web about the patrol method are: http://www.inquiry.net/patrol/index.htm (more traditional scouting) http://www.greenbar.ws/index.cfm (about William "Green Bar" Hilcourt http://www.whitestag.org/ (alternative Youth ledership training program)

A "virtual" patrol is the creation of a patrol for an activity. I have been involved with and have met troops where new patrols are formed every month just for camping trips. This is done becuase most of the time very few kids are attending the activities/trips and they are making one or two patrols of the kids that are going. Both of the Troops we have been involved with do this and when I decided to switch Troops almost every troop I visited did this. The only Troops that did not were the ones that were small (and ready to fold) and only had enough scouts for one patrol. I am looking for a quick way to demonstrate why this is a bad idea beyond just telling "it's not the way the Patrol Methid works"

You should get and read Selecting Quality Leader (BSA #18-981)] It can be found onlin a at: http://www.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/18-981.pdf The CO does have the final say and authority of who is choosen. However, If you CO is like most units they don't partisipate in the finding of leaders. Your committee should select the person they fell is best for the position and ask them to take it. Don't just take the first person who excepts the position. Select the person who is right for the position and ask them to do it. Tell them exactly what the position is and what is exspected of them. When I was CC for a Pack and used this methid I had much greater success in having a better run pack. Everytime we selected the first person who agreed to do it usually ended up not doing a good job as it wasn't what they exspected or were just volenteering because they felt they has to.

Does anyone know of an good exercise that shows what happens when Virtual Patrols are used? I was thinking along the lines of having 2 groups work on some type of short objective or task that requires group cooridination and then randomly swaping half the group and immediatly have them do the task. Any ideas?

I've seen the term "Troop Method" (vs. Patrol Methid") used on the forum a few times. This kind of shoots off of doing MB's at Troop Meeings. I am seeing a good number of Troops and had a poster comment that there are many troops that are pushiing advancement (the so-called Eagle or MB mills). With these types of Troops the first method that seems to go is the patrol method. Another thing I have noticed that Troops that use the Troop method over the patrol methid are more adult-led than boy-led So to borrow from Jeff Foxworhty: You might be using the Troop Method.... .... if your prime focus of weekly troop meetings are MB's. .... if you use "virtual" patrols (creating new patrols for each activity) .... the Troop committee meets more often than the PLC. Any more?

along these same lines- If I were presenting this topic at a Scouting University: What do you say to the parent/leader/Troop that insists that MB's have to be done at Troop meetings because that is the only time their son(s) have to work on scouts? You can show them what the MB program should be from the Advancement guide, but that doesn't seem to matter to many adults anymore.

AvidSM Right On and Ditto!!!!

borne- The last time I checked the BSA did not have classes for EMT/CPR and such, so of course you are going to get better training in areas like these from the outside. The problem with using outside agencies for training is often they are not familiar with the BSA's G2SS and their classes are often directed at adults and not for the ages we are dealing with. It would take a great deal of effort to have an outside agency take over BSA training. It would take years to get enough outside people familiar with the BSA program and policies to deliver quality training. Until then you would just have inexperienced people reading out of a book I have to say that both Wood Badge and Powder Horn training are some of the best training of its kind anywhere. I have read the both British Petroleum and British Airways send their new Exec's to Wood Badge. The BSA must be doing something right. Are you willing to pay hundreds or thousands of dollars to attend a BSA training session? There are programs like Wood Badge available for businesses at outside agencies; they cost thousands of dollars to attend. Almost all the BSA training deals with how to run and deliver the program. As it has been said before. If you don't go to training to learn the program how can you deliver it?" What a disservice is being done to the youth when adult leaders won't attend training.

Beavah- I couldn't agree more that many Troops are selecting the "wrong people for the job". My son's troop has a new SM. How did they select this person. He was the first person to say he would do it. How long did the seach take, about 5 min. The outgoing announced he waanted to step down and the first person who said yes was given the job. I didn't even know the troop was looking for a new SM. Do to a last minute time change I missed the committee meeting where this happened. They did the same with the Tresurer, gave it to the first person who said yes instead of asking the father who is a CPA to do it and they just selected a new CC the same way. CA_Scouter - I do agree that a good scouter follows the gudielines as best as possible. However I am seeing a great deal of troop who knowingly ignore the guidelines and just do what they want. At my son's troops yearly adult planning session I had to debate with the other leaders about becoming a "model" BSA troop and using the BSA guidelines. I pretty much lost and they are knowingly not following a good deal of BSA guidelines. I have now talked with over half of the Troop in my district and have found only a few that use the patrol method. almost every troop I talked with used "virtual" patrols. The issue is that Troops like this are giving Scouting a bad repretation by presenting a poor program and turning youth off of scouting. And there is nothing anyone can do about it

On my councils local forum there has been a thread going about adult training. With our council going to mandatory training many adults are complaining that they do not have the time to take training classes. I know the person who started this thread. He became a adult leader when he turned 18 in 1975 after being in the troop since he was 11. He took SM Fundamentals that year and admits he has taken very little training since. He has never had a son in the program (and never will) and only has one older teen daughter. It seems like there are many adults like this ans wanted the council to offer alternative training. (at Summer camp and at camp-o-rees were some suggestions) Many have said that they need to take time off from work to attend a training class on a weekend. Over the weekend I meet a Scouter and this topic came up. We both felt that when we agreed to become leaders that training was part of this commitment. If we were going to be responsible and liable for other peoples children that we should have the proper training to do in a proper and safe manner. I think guys like this poster are hurting the program more than helping. If your not willing to take the training you should not commit to being a leader. We are here to serve the youth and deliver a program.

acco40- What you have described is not "holding merit badge classes at troop meetings". This is a sugeested "BSA" way to introduce a MB to the Scouts. The only question I have is who sets up the person introducing the MB? Is this done by a Scout or taken care of by an adult. I have a real issue with my son's Troop in that they do MB's at one meeting a month. This is 100% arranged by an adlt leader. The adult's decide which MB's are going to be offered and an adult calls up a councilor (all inhouse Troop councilors) and sets up the classes. The Troop we switched from did MB's at every meeting. Younger scouts were taught skills by adults and the older kids spent most of the meeting doing MB work. Only once or twice a year was something else done. I have now talked with over half the Troops in my district and the vast magority of them do MB's at Troop meetings. The biggest reason I am given is that because kids ar so busy with other activities Troop meetings are the only time they have to work on Scout stuff including MB's. I just think this is not the Scouting program. Even once a month takes away from what scouts should be doing.

I would say it is Ok for a patrol to do a MB, as long as they get approval from the SM, call the councilor and set up the meetings. I think doing a demonstration at a meeting that covers a few requirements of a MB's and then saying anyone interested can get the information for a councilor to finish is a good idea. I am just seeing way to many MB's done as groups and not as individuals. Right now my son is waiting for his troop to offer the MB's he needs for Eagle to do them. I have been encouraging him to work on these on his own. Mark Ray in his book "The Scoutmasters other book" has a section about MB's at Troop meetings. His response is "just don't start doing it". Once it is established it is harder to stop again. At our SM training the trainer gives a good analogy about this. He never tells his daughter what clothes to buy but she does need his approval to purchase any item of clothing. I think the same goes true for MB's at Troop meetings or any Scout activity. I don't agree with my son's troop with this at all. The PLC decided tp have MB's at Troop meetinngs. They also decided that they wanted the adult leaders to set up the classes for them. The SM said, "OK, the PLC made this decision and that's what we will do and this is what a boy-led program does.

CA_Scouter The situation I asked about is real. Last year at this time I went looking for a new Troop as the one my son was in I knew ws not right. No Patrols, CC and SM ran everything, Committee Meetings were twice a year and were only info sessions. SM got very made when anyone started questioning this troops policies. I have now visited or talked with over half the Troops in my district and the only ones I see using the patrol methid are the troopswith less than 10 scouts. Every Troop I looked at uses "virtual patrols" (mixing patrols for trips). The person and Troop I asked about is real. I just had this conversation with the Troop leader and he was tryin to get my son to join his troop.

Hi All, Thanks for the replies and advise. I sent my App and $50 deposit for the course yesterday. It will be a while before I know if receive an "invitation". I remember when I was in Scouts 2 of the SMs I had telling me about Wood Badge and I ope now I finally get the chance to take it. I know my father who was in scouts for many years never made to WB, however back then it was a week long course and he couldnt get the time off to take it. Cant wait until Sept.

I have to agree with Cubmaster Jerry. I should see the same quality of service reguardless of where you are at Semper says: The difference between the Troop that I work with and McDonalds is that we are not in business to sell a product that has been turned into a homogenous unit. A non-profit is a business. It may not be there to make money but it is a business. A non-profit has a product or service to offer What is the BSA business? The BSA is in the business to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Isnt this the same as selling a product that has been turned into a homogenous unit.? Isnt the BSAs product or service the same no matter where in the US you are? McDonalds or Walmart uses the same set of standards in every one of its stores. Why do Troops need to tweek standards? If the same guidelines are successful for Walmart or McDonalds, whether it be in Maine, Texas or California, why dont the same guidelines work for your Troop? What makes the scouts in your troop different from the Scouts in another troop? I am not saying that every troop should be the exact copy of each other and do the same camping trips and activates across the nation, however when I visit a Troop meeting shouldnt I see Scouts working in Patrols, being led by a SPL, following the same Advancement program and each one looking like they are following the same guidelines. When I went looking at other troops, the only way I knew that they were in the same organization is because they wore a uniform and said they were a Scout Troop. Heck, I still havent found a Troop in my district that uses the Patrol Method as in the gudelines CA_Scouter - so you are saying because you are not a paid employee and cant be fired, you dont have to follow the BSA guidelines? So, for you posters who say its OK not to use the guidelines: Is Ok not to use patrols? Is Ok for adults to arrange all the MB classes for the Scouts? Is it OK for adults to plan all the camping trips, prepare the menus and do the dishes? I recently talked with someone who was interested in starting a Venture Crew. When I told him that my son was intested in Venturing as he has become bored with his Troops program. He said he was looking for a Crew for his son, as he was 13 and almost an Eagle and wanted to do something different. When I asked him about his troop he told me, ver proudly, that scouts in his troop move very fast through the ranks. He said that they very rarely use patrols and meet using one large group. The Troop had 65 scouts in it but had none older than 15. Hell tell you his Troop is running a great program and is working for them. So, I guess for all you posters who say its OK to tweek the program dont have any problem with a Troop like this

Beavah says If standards really worked, you'd see only one type of successful business or one type of successful school. Thing is, you see all kinds of successful businesses and schools, and they're DIFFERENT. And when businesses and schools try to standardize on the people-side, far more often then not they become WORSE. One of the most successful businesses today works by applying standards. McDonalds (or any franchise). When you enter a McDonalds in Maine or California you know whats on the menu and what the food is going to be like. There maybe some regional menu selections, but a Big Mac is a Big Mac anywhere in the USA. They are basically selling the same products no matter where you are in the US. Is standards dont work why do franchises work? When you visit a BSA Troop shouldnt it be basically the same with only minor differences? Isnt the BSA a franchise? It sure looks like one to me. If McDonalds can be successful selling the same food across the USA why cant the exact same BSA program work across the BSA? What I am not seeing with Scout Troops is a consistent program like this. Every Troop seems to have its own program. This Troop does Merit badges at every meeting, the next closest one doesnt allow MBs at meetings, the next one has a separate meeting for MBs and the one down the street does MBs only once a month. My sons Troop has an adult arrange MBs for the Scouts. The leader calls the MB Councilor and arranges them to come to a Troop meeting to teach a group of scouts. Does it work, you bet. Ive been told that thats what the PLC wants, so the Troop Leaders are doing it. The boys like it and the adults find it much easier. Sorry, thats not the BSA program in my book

I decided to spin-off a new thread just to get these in one place. Going through the responses to wiseskier about Merit Badges at Meetings I got the following: 1) What do you do with Scouts that either have the MB or dont want to do the MB? 2) If you then start up a game for the scouts doing nothing, the scouts doing MBs want to stop and play the game. 3) The MB program is something for each boy to explore as he finds need and interest. MB should not be done in a group setting. 4) Doing MBs in Troop meeting distract from what the meeting is about - to practice leadership and prepare for Troop activities. Any more?

wiseskier You stated "I guess my real dilemma is, some scouts have the initiative to be working on the merit badges and others just want to sit around and do nothing. The problem is that when you then start up a game for the scouts doing nothing, the scouts doing MBs want to stop and play the game. Any one else have this problem?" This is one of the problems associated with doing MB's during Troop meetings and why it is suggested not to do them during the weekly meeting.

I have to say that I see this as much, if not more of an issue, as adding to the requirements. From what I have seen the biggest "subtracting from the requirements is the POR. Scouts are given a POR, do nothing and in 6 months they have the required time and are advanced to the next rank. We have been with this new troop almost a year and my son has yet to recieve a phone call or e-mail from his PL informing him about something, Yet, his PL will recieve his next rank advancement. My son is currently the Chaplin Aide however the Troop has no Chaplin, but he does have an Assistant Chaplin Aide. He was given this POR in September. Not a single Leader in the Troop has told him what was expected of him in this position and the only thing he has done is to read a prayer at a COH. And next month he will have enough time in to get his Life rank

wiseskier, You may also want to pick up the Boy Scout Troop Program Features. There are 3 volumes and each of these outline 12 months of troop meetings. Monthly themes are outlined along with all weekly meetings. You can do these in order or pick and choose which mo ths to do. they are $5.95 each.

Hello Wiseskier, You should use the Troop meeting planner outine to plan your meetings it can be found at: www.scouting.org/forms/34425.pdf or your Scoutmaster can get this out of the Scoutmaster Handbook and shouls also be in the SPL handbook. Each Troop meeeting should consist of 7 parts. and by following the outline your meetings should end up to be fun and challenging for your Troop Good luck