CNYScouter

I decided to spin this off from the "The Top 10 for a Qaulity Unit" thread. I should have figured that the BSA had something for a unit to use. The link below has Self Assesment forms that a Pack/Troop/Crew can use to help them evaluate their program. These are under Unit Commisoner resources: http://www.scouting.org/commissioners/resources/index.html I have never seen or heard of these before, but I have never been with a unit that had a good UC. I would really like to see Unit Leaders made better aware of what is out there for us to use.

a couple of things came to light last night. 1) I just found out that almost every Ship member will be playing a fall sport. This means 6 days a week of practice or games. This also means no overnight activites until Nov. 1 (or later if anyone makes the playoffs). 2) I also got a call from the course director for SM training. They are having trouble finding staff for WOLT/SM training/Scouting University and asked if I could attend. I want to make the Ship the top priority but if no one in the Ship can make activities I would like to attend the training. SM training seems to be one place I can associate with Scouters who have the same passion for the program as I do. I always meet some new and learn something by going to this. Problem is the Training is asking for a commitment to be on staff and I can't seem to get a commitment for ship members to attend activites. I gave the course director a maybe and I would let him know by the first staff meeting in Sept. Where do you put your effort?

Am I moving too fast? I didnt think so when they took the initiative to start a plan in writing. It is just frustrating when no one signs up to go. I dont have a problem WAGing the tour permit however having young ladies in attendance I do need the name of an adult female that will be going which I cant seem to get a commitment from. Eamonn , I had this exact conversation with my wife this morning. We talked about scheduling and going on activities and if only one or two show, thats a start. Last year an announcement was made about the time it was going to take to process a tour permit. Filing a tour permit is no longer a 5 minute process. It now can take up to two weeks because our council now verifies the drivers license and insurance information. (and they wonder why the council is having financial difficulties) I was told this is due to an incident with a unit putting a parent on as a driver. After this person got into an accident it was found out they had a suspended license, no insurance and they were driving a vehicle with an expired inspection. I am worried about things becoming boring. I've heard of Crews where the members say there is nothing to do yet no one signs up for activities when they are planned and the crew ends up folding because they never do anything. I guess this might make the topic of planning and commitment something to discuss at the ship meeting next week.

I fully agree that the Ship members should be setting deadlines however our council now requires tour permits to be turned in 2 weeks before the activity so they are setting the deadlines. A couple of years ago I could go over a few days before the trip, give the paper work to the secretary, shop in the Scout stoare and the paperwork would be processed when I was done. That's no onger the case. What I am now facing is that 3 weeks ago at the Ship meeting the youth members decided on an activity and appointed a chair. At that time I did point out a tour permit had to be turned in 2 weeks prior, handed a copy of the tour permit to the activity chair and told them to contact me if they have any questions. The activity chair did nothing, the dealine passed and last week the ship decided on a new date and activity. Still no responce. This type of responce just seems to be typical with almost every unit I have been with or talked too. It took the 5 years for the SM of our first Troop to get enough interest to do a backpacking trip to the Rockies. Even then only 11 people went 7 being adults, and 4 being scouts in the troop. He just couldn't get anyone to commit to going. We also had the same problem trying to get a crew to attend Seabase. we couldn't even get 6 people to put down a deposit to go.

With 2 sons that have been in Scouts, I've now been involved with a Cub Pack, 2 troops, a Venturing Crew and a Sea Scout Ship. In every one of these trying to get people to commit to an activity has been impossible. At one Pack event a couple of years ago only 11 people signed up to attended. 2 days before a family of 5 called and said they couldn't make it. That left myself, the CM and his son and a DL with two kids. The day of the event 35 people showed up in which we where totally unprepared for. Both Troops we have been with have tried to hold high Adventure Trips but couldn't get anyone to commit to go. The Troop we are in now is putting a HA trip for next weekend. They aren't going to submit a tour permit for this (they never do one) and who ever shows up next Friday is who will be going. I'm seeing it again with the Ship. Our council now requires that local tour permits be submitted 2 weeks prior to going yet I can't get people to commit to anything even 24 hours in advance. We have an August Activity planned for next weekend and the only ones I know that are going are my son and I there has been no responce from the rest of the Ship. I've tried to work with both the adults and youth by telling them we can't just throw something together at the last minute but it seems thay they just not have the event than to commit to coming.(This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

My council has 3 camps. Camp #1 is used only for Cub Weekends. Camp #2 is used only for Troops and High Adventure Trips. Camp #3 has both Cubs an Scouts. I don't have have exect numbers but was told that: Camp #2 had 6 weeks of Summer Camp with approximatly 1200 in attendance. Camp #3 had aproximatly 260 Scouts for 3 weeks. How many Scouts does your council summer camp serve in a summer?

I haven't experianced WB yet (I'm going next month) but I have seen the same thing at SM Specific/Outdoor Skills. In my council 2 cources are combined and taught on 1 week night and a Friday night to Sunday afternoon. The group is split into patrols. By the end of the weekend the idea of the patrol method has been pretty well presented and most patrols are working together as a team. But I've seen very few adults that have taken this idea and implimented it in their Troop.

On top of the BSA insurance our council has an extra $15 million primary liability policy (which we pay an extra fee when a unit recharters) . New York State has much tougher liability laws than most states and in this day and age I dont see it so hard to believe that an insurance company might have come to the conclusion: 1) Were insuring an organization for liability that does outdoor activities. 2) The organization has outdoor training that if taken it might save us money by having to pay out less in claims. 3) It doesnt cost the insurance company anything to require this so well require the training for the organization to be covered. This is not much of a jump as New York State already requires that anyone over 18 working (paid or volunteer) at a youth camp have a background check. Any adult staying overnight with a Troop, even for one night at summer camp, was considered working and had to be a registered leader (thus had a background check). Our Cub Scout Overnight camps only run 3 nights at the most. Any longer and the laws here are much stricter (and it would cost a great deal more) to run our camps.

So what does a council do to get Adults to training? I think the talk about "required" training was done to try and improve attendance at training and when it didn't work the council is taking a drastic step by now requiring leaders to take training. I think the council has tried every way to improve attendance at training. About the only training that is full with a waiting list is SM Specific/Outdoor Skills. It wasn't always though. A few years ago Outdoors Skills was full and know one was taking SM Specific. These courses are now combined and is the only training that hasn't been canceled in the last few years. The Ship is the 8 or 9th new Venturing unit started in the district in the last 3 years, yet Venturing Specific has been canceled 3 years in a row due to no one signing up. WLOT ran in April for the first time in 3 years, its been offered but one one signed up. Pretty much the same with TDC and BALOO. Our council didn't run Wood Badge for over 10 years. 3 years ago it was offered and it was full, last year only 10 people signed up and it was canceled. I was also told to expect that in the next couple of years the councils insurance carrier is going to require every unit to have at least 2 adults trained in outdoor skills to go camping (and be covered by insurance).

I dont think there can be one generic list for all units. I think a Pack, a Troop, a Varsity Team and a Venturing Crew (or Ship) each need a different list. Back in 2002 Bob White started a thread Some Common Traits of Successful Troops http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=14781#id_101270 I know there is more than 10 but I think this gives a good indication for a Troop that is running a successful Scouting Program. Some Common Traits of Successful Troops Currently trained adults Leaders wear correct uniform Scoutmaster concentrates on training Junior Leaders, and knowing the needs and characteristics of each scout. They use the Patrol Method for everything They follow the contents of the Boy Scout Handbook The committee supports the decision of the scouts, they dont make decisions for them. They have at least 2 Assistant Scoutmasters They recognize scouts 3 times for every advancement They DONT use troop meetings as merit badge classes. They plan everything in advance and put it in writing (The difference between a wish and a plan is a plan is written down) The only rules they have are that scouts and leaders follow the Scout Oath and Law. They get outdoors once a month (even if just for a day event) Troop meetings are filled with hands on activities New scouts make First Class, First Year They keep in contact with Webelos Dens year round They select leaders they dont recruit them. They participate in District and Council events They attend Roundtable Adults smile and play nice together. (If you are not enjoying yourself then neither are the scouts.) I think 1 more should be added- - The Scouts are having Fun.

Our council is not going to place fines on untrained leaders. This was only a suggestion someone made to 1) get leaders to training and 2) help offset some of the financial issues our council is having and sell one of our camps. I do like the idea of a higher registration fee with a discount for having training. The rumor of our council going to required training has been around for a few years and has gone through a few changes. I contacted my Council Commissioner and asked him what the policy on this was going to be. Here is what is going to be put in place: Effective September 1, 2006, all leaders new to their position, either new to scouting or by transferring, needs to be fully trained in their position. To be fully trained: Everyone must have Fast Start (for their specific program), NLE and YPT (taken every two years). SM/ASMs must have SM Specific/Outdoor Skills. All other Unit Leaders (Advisors/Skippers, CM, ACM, DLs) must have Leader Specific (for their specific position). CC's and CMs must have Troop or Pack Committee training. Those who refuse to get trained under the above conditions will have their own status put on hold. The individual will not be allowed to re-register until they are trained, but the unit can still recharter. This only effects new leaders and has a grandfather clause and it will not require leaders that have registered before this date to comply I like putting the responsibility of getting training on the individual instead of the unit. It is felt that it will take 5 years before the council will have the majority of leaders who are untrained out of the program (left due to son(s) being out of Scouting, changed positions and so on.) For those coming in to Scouting now it will be viewed as normal. After 5 years or so, it will seem odd that anyone isn't trained. The council knows that there will be units, especially Troops, that will have older leaders who are not trained, and that will exceed the 5 year timeframe. The council feels that the newer, trained leaders will bring about conformance to the Scouting program. The council is working on a test for older leaders that will allow them to not have to go through training again but can show they know the program. This part is not ready yet and they are still working on how to administer it

Sad thing is my council had to go to these "strong-arm" tactics because units couldn't/wouldnt send their leaders to training. The first Troop we were with hadn't sent a leader for training for at least 8 years. I decided to attend on my own and was given a hard time by the CC as I should have spent that weekend heading up a trip for the troop instead of wasting it at training. I have been told that we are not the first council to require training. Most councils that do this end up with 3 or 4 units that just wont go to training and end up not rechartering. Right now I am looking for basic Scout training such as NLE and YPT and cant even get a schedule for that. Where we are located puts us in the New England Flotilla but it seems they are doing very little. I do understand that trying to find Sea Scout Training through my council isnt going to happen but even Venturing Leader Specific hasnt been held here in a couple of years. I am fully qualified to give this training and I keep getting the answer do it yourself. I am just finding it too hard to run the ship, train the youth leaders, head up fundraising, go to training myself and then try to add adult leader training on top of everything else. It seems that I should be getting support from somewhere. I have found that the Liberty Flotilla is holding the Sea Scout Leader Specialized Training in Sept. in NJ. The tough part about this is it is the weekend between the 2 Wood Badge weekends and a 5 hour drive from here.

Our council has been in turmoil for the last couple of weeks. It has been suggested by National that we sell one of our 3 council camps due to financial difficulties. A Unit Leader wrote that due to unresolved issues with his Unit not following BSA guidelines he is stepping down to not put himself or family into an unwanted position. He asks the question Who is supposed to help and/or make sure things are followed in the BSA guidelines and help pack and troops that are not following those guide lines and make sure all the leaders are receiving training? Effective Sept. 1 all registered leader are required to be fully trained for their position for the Unit to recharter next year. He has made the suggestion to fine units for every untrained leader/committee member they have and even for infraction to BSA policies. Effective Sept. 1 all registered leader are required to be fully trained for their position for the Unit to recharter next year. He suggests that these fines be set aside and used to keep the camp. I dont agree with the idea of fines but with amount of Units using the Cafeteria Style Scouting approach and the number of Eagle Mills I have run into I think something needs to be done.

The Ship has been doing pretty good in most areas so far. We are meeting weekly sailing with usually about half the members present. The last Ship business meeting went really well and the youth members are beginning to step up and take on some responsibilities and starting to do things on their own. I cant say this for the adult side. When starting this unit the CO said that they had plenty of people willing to be leaders. As it turns out the 2 from the CO that agreed to help are willing to do the Sea part (Sailing/boating) but not the Scout part. They are doing a great job with teaching sailing I expect that once the weather turns bad they will disappear. When I found out the CO didnt have any leaders I recruited someone to be the CC. They acted excited to be involved with the program and quickly filled out and returned the application. They signed up their daughter also. I have yet to see them at any meetings. After phone calls and e-mails that respond Ill be there when the time comes they are a no-show. I have talked with the parents of the ship members. All are willing to sit on the committee and help out, but none are willing to take on the role of Mate (Assistant Advisor) or CC. On top of this I have the concern about required or mandatory training. Our SE and Executive board has approved that all registered leaders must be fully trained for their position or the unit can not charter next year (it will become effective 9/1/06). And yes, my DE has said they will not recharter any unit that doesnt comply. For a Venturing Crews or Ship this is Fast Start, NLE, YPT and Venturing Leader Specific. On top of this I cant get a training schedule for next year. I have contacted both my District Training Chair and the Professional that works with the training staffs and have gotten no response. No training dates are listed on our Web site or on the council calendar for next year. I would contact the Council Training Chair but his contact information is no where to be found. I did contact the Council Commissioner about this. He agrees this is a problem but his only solution was to offer to come and do training for us himself (NLE, YPT and Venturing Specific). But trying to get people to nail down dates for these has been impossible. At this point I am trying not to get burnt out on all of this but with trying to deal with fundraising, the Ships program and then with all the training issues I can see it happening if I cant get parents to step forward. Any suggestions? P.S. Dont suggest contacting my UC because the Ship doesnt have one and there is no one in the District willing to become our UC.

I am not sure if the Attrition rate always shows the real story In the first Troop we were with 8 boys started the same time as my son. He is entering High School (9th Grade) in the Fall. He sees and talks with most of these kids at school. Of these 8 only 2 are left in the Troop. This Troop doses really good at rucruiting each year and the size of the troop stays the same, but most boys that join don't make past the first year. I am not sure about our new Troop but here are some numbers I can give: I was told when we joined the Troop had 28 scouts with only 1 crossing over from a Pack and my son as new members. Last summer 15 Scouts went to summer camp. The boy who crossed over didn't go. I saw that the Troop resistered 21 scouts and 9 Cubs crossed over from the Pack in March. This year at summer camp 12 scouts went with 7 of these being Scouts that just crossed over. If you look at the Attrition Rate (the rate of shrinkage in size or number) the Troop is +1 but if you look at what is really happening is they saw a big drop in size.

Mr. Mal, I was refering to Sabattis (see nldsout's post). This is in the same area as Cederlands. nld- I had heard from my DE about possibly selling Portaferry. He did say that it was losing money but said Sabattis was still breaking even. I had heard rumours about Sabattis getting a Dining Hall be my DE said that wasn't going to happen I have to admit I have never been to Camp Portaferry. I have tried to get my son's Troop to go camping there but they were not interested. Everyone I talked with has said that it was a great location but small. I really hate to hear any BSA property being sold. All the leaders I talked with seem to think that Sabattis is great but outside its location I was never impressed with its overall program.

Our council has 2 summer camps. One is patrol cooking and the other is dinning hall style. The one that does patrol cooking is in the heart of the Aderondack Mountains and has been in our council a long time. It was there when I was a Scout in the 60's and 70's. The dining hall camp was in the council that we merged with about 5 years ago. The patrol cooking camp has seen a downslide in numbers in the last few years but is still pretty strong and draws units from all over. The dining hall camp drew less than 400 campers for the whole summer last year and I have heard rumours that it maybe on the market. 400 campers is the break-even number and they didn't think they we going to get that many again this year.

I think B-P said it best: Show me a poorly uniformed troop and I'll show you a poorly uniformed leader and There is no teaching to compare with example Most of the Troops I have seen that don't wear full uniforms (or uniforms at all) have adult leaders who think the uniform is not important. The first Troop we were with went to a Council-wide Camp-o-ree (I didn't attend due to other commitments). The 16 year-old SPL remarked to me that they were the only Troop he saw that was wearing jeans and t-shirts. Not a single person in the Troop, even the adults had brought even the uniform shirt to wear. He clearly knew it wasn't right. Not a single adult ever said anything about this. In the second Troop we joined a 16 year old Scout told me that the Troop no longer attended District events because one of the reasons was they were embarrassed to attend as they were usually the only Troop there not wearing any part of the uniform. The adults in this troop very rarely wore a uniform, even the shirt. I was the only adult that owned uniform pants and was given dirty looks when I came to our first Troop meeting in full uniform. This really shows that Scouts do notice, even the older ones. and know what should be done.

Over the weekend I filled in at the last minute for my daughters GS Troop to Niagara Falls and a lock-in at the Aquarium there. (A great trip for Junior GS or Bears and WEBELOS.) The girls wanted to go on the Maid of the Mist tour but the local GS council said Not Approved Activity as everyone doesnt wear PFDs and the council cant get proof that the boats are inspected every year. I did think it was funny that they could ride the 60MPH Jetboats through the rapids as everyone does wear PFDs and they did have proof of yearly inspections. I was looking at the G2SS and if followed, a Pack, Troop or Crew couldnt ride the Maid of the Mist boats either. Is there a section in the G2SS I missed about large vessels such as ferries, SightSeeing boats or the large boats for Whale Watching as you dont wear PFDs on most of these either. Didnt a Scout drown a few years ago after fooling around and falling overboard Whale Watching? It didnt sound like he was wearing a PFD. How did this activity get approved if you need to wear PFDs on all boating activities?

My ideal size for a sip is also about 25 kids. The Ship chartered on June 8th with 6 kids. I just registered numbers 9 and 10. Our CO and I are also worried about being able to handle a large number of kids. The difference we have is that only one of the ship members has scouting experiance (my son)and the young ladies are turning out more (almost 2 to 1) than the males. If we continue to grow at our current rate (and we haven't even started recruiting scouts yet) we will be in the same boat(pun intended). A few things I do get from your post is that there is a need and want for a high school age Scout program. If you run a good program they will come. I think it really shows how a poor job Troops are doing running older boy programs. I also see that a uniform can make a difference. The white dress uniform is impractical from a functional stand point but it does look sharp and seems to draw the kids in recruiting wise. After reading your post and being involved with the program I can see why Sea Scouts is the biggest growing program in Scouting today.

My ideal size for a sip is also about 25 kids. The Ship chartered on June 8th with 6 kids. I just registered numbers 9 and 10. Our CO and I are also worried about being able to handle a large number of kids. The difference we have is that only one of the ship members has scouting experiance (my son)and the young ladies are turning out more (almost 2 to 1) than the males. If we continue to grow at our current rate (and we haven't even started recruiting scouts yet) we will be in the same boat(pun intended). A few things I do get from your post is that there is a need and want for a high school age Scout program. If you run a good program they will come. I think it really shows how a poor job Troops are doing running older boy programs. I also see that a uniform can make a difference. The white dress uniform is impractical from a functional stand point but it does look sharp and seems to draw the kids in recruiting wise. After reading your post and being involved with the program I can see why Sea Scouts is the biggest growing program in Scouting today.

The Sea Scout Ship is finally active. Over the summer we will be meeting every Thursday night to go sailing with the thrid Thursday a Ship Business meeting. I was hoping to start with 12 members or so but only have 8 so far. However most seem to really like the program so far and are looking forward to doing more activities. A couple have expressed interest in officer postions and one has an activity shirt designed Our first 2 weeks the weather didn't cooperate but last week it was perfect sailing. This week is exspected to be good sailing again. For one of the bad weather weeks I got out the rope and went over knots. As most of our ship members were not Scouts they really got into tying knots. Even some of the CO members that were around got into learning a knot or two. About half of the Ship members are experianced sailors and want to go to the NE Sea Scout Sailing Championships. So we will be working towards learning how to race and getting our less experianced sailors up to speed. Things have been busy lately but I will try post more updates.

I am not sure where to stand on this. I do agree with Eamonn that perhaps it is better for Crews/Ship not to participate in Boy Scout activities such as District Camp-o-rees, especially with a good number of Crew/Ship members still involved with a Troop. One thing I have found is that my council nor any of our neighboring councils have any type of Venturing only events. Our council has tried to hold these in the past we just couldnt get any Crews to attend. It looks like with will have to travel at least 4 or 5 hours just to attend the closest Sea Scout or Venturing event. We do plan on doing some of these but the distance will make it difficult to attend more than a few each year. Right now recruitment in the ship is 2 to 1 in favor of the young ladies. So far my son is the only registered Scout to sign up so very few ship members have ever attended a event like this. So what does everyone think about Crews/Ships at District events? What about serving as staff at these? I have just found out that there will be a council wide camp-o-ree next May. I would like to suggest the ship go to this and run an activity. Does the same feelings hold true for council events?

This is one of the down falls of having a Crew assoicated with a Troop. I have to agree 100% with EagleDad on this one and can't really add more.

I wish I could have been there to witness it. I put it right up there with: the Numa Numa Dance http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/numa.php and the Evolution of Dance http://www.lifeischange.com/ (This message has been edited by CNYScouter)