Chippewa29

Ideally, I feel that a SM should serve for at least seven years. That way, a Scout will never have more than two Scoutmasters in their career. Like was mentioned before, this all depends on how the troop is doing. If the troop is not moving in a good direction or has stagnated, it is usually a sign that the top leadership needs to be changed (a group will reflect its top leader). No matter how long a SM serves, their should be a plan of succession in case anything happens to the SM. That way, the troop will have a minimal adjustment if the SM suddenly leaves for whatever reason. I can tell you that high turnover among SM's will not help a troop. My troop has never had more than 16-18 active Scouts. We've had eight SM's in 19 years of existance, and two of those served five years each in two separate terms.

FScouter-

When we do our COH, each rank is recognized individually. The Scouts in my troop have talked about how great it would be to get two ranks at one COH (when most everyone else is getting just one).

As I've mentioned at some point, I'm still not entirely agreeing with the "new" way the BSA does the ranks up to first class. Back in the 70's and 80's, we had the skill awards and things were more separated. I would love to see them bring the skill awards back. Except for the experience requirements (5 and 10 outdoor activities), I believe the ranks are way easier to achieve now than they were back in the 80's.

Also, in an ideal world, the kids would always be at the meetings and about to finish the requirements at the same time. However, this is my set up among the six younger Scouts in my troop:

2 joined in June 2000 and are at 80% or more of the meetings and all the campouts.

1 joined in June 2000 and is at about 50% of the meetings and most of the campouts.

1 joined in August 2001 at age 12 (never having been a Cub Scout) and is at just about everything.

1 joined in June 2001 from Webelos and is at 75% of the meetings and 2/3 of the outdoor activities.

1 (our challenge Scout) joined in Feb. 2000 and is at about 80% of meetings and activities. However, as I've mentioned in other posts, there have been numerous times where he's wandered off during the skill session to read or play with the toys in the church. I won't sign his book when he does that, so there are things the other Scouts have done that we have sometimes had to go back and work with again with our challenge Scout.

The ideal situation is that all the new Scouts join at the same meeting each year and are all at the same level through their first year or so. I think if I ever get anything close to that, I'll be shocked.

sctmom-

As you and the others probably haven't noticed, I do not post on these issues, although I do read them on a regular basis. If you would, please email me at chippewa29vigil@yahoo.com as I would like to get some feedback from you on a few things you have posted as well as get your perspectives on some issues I have regarding being a female Scouter. I hope to hear from you soon.

And the thing I meant to say by that is we should have a better system of helping the Scouts get their basic skills learned (and thus, finishing requirements) on a consistent basis so that any Scout who is active and puts in the work should be able to get his First Class by the end of his first year.

Also, with the new Scouts coming in (we'll be getting somewhere between 3-16), these Scouts now hitting Second and First Class will be doing a lot of the teaching of the basic skills (although the adults will still have to do some so the experienced Scouts can be working on their own things at times). I've been telling these guys this for the past year. My two older Scouts have done some of the teaching with the younger ones, but it was never done for them on a consistent basis (they both had two older brothers as Eagles in the troop and just kind of picked things up along the way) and was never really expected of them before last year.

I think once we get a couple of years where the experienced Scouts are teaching the new Scouts, it will take root and start building momentum toward the troop becoming stronger and more self-sufficient.

I agree with your sentiment, Bob. The requirements were very separate when I was a Scout back in the 80's. I still have mixed feelings on the change they made a decade ago. With the new system, I've seen some Scouts not advance for a long time, but then all of sudden get Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, and First Class within a couple of months. When I was a Scout, very rarely did anyone take longer than 3-4 months to get their Tenderfoot. It seems to be taking longer now even though there are less requirements.

A big reason we have a stall at the Tenderfoot requirement is the Physical Fitness requirement. We test the Scouts fairly soon after they cross over. Then, we set up another date 4-5 weeks later to test them again. It is up to them to work out (practice) consistenly for 30 days on their own. They tend to do it for 2-3 days, then not do it for a week or two, then repeat the pattern. We have a Scout that has been in the troop about 20 months now, but hasn't gotten his Tenderfoot. That requirement has been holding him back (he is also a Scout that only makes about half the meetings during the year due to sports commitments). As soon as he is done with his Tenderfoot, he only has one or two "easy" requirements left for 2nd class, and he has finished about 2/3 of the requirements for first class.

The one Scout I specifically mentioned in the beginning joined the troop in August as a 12 year old and is really starting to catch fire. He finished the physical fitness requirement last week and is gunning to get his second class. His buddies are currently finishing up their first class and he wants to catch up with them.

Bob- thanks for your concern, but I'm not talking about changing requirements. I'm talking about making sure the Scouts have strong standards to live up to (as the BSA intended) without having to be superhuman. For example, our previous SM thought a good uniform was the shirt tucked in. He didn't think it was necessary to wear the pants, belt, neckerchief, etc. except for a COH. Also, as I've mentioned in other posts before, my troop was previously 90% adult run. Our older Scouts weren't really leaders, but rather guys that just communicated the SM's wishes (he was good at a lot of things, but believed that the Scouts weren't capable of making a lot of decisions on their own). Therefore, until a year ago, our 17 year old Scout wasn't used to idea of Scouts actually running things and just went along for the ride (his dad was of the same philosophy as the SM). We are now about 40% boy run and I'm shooting for 90% by the end of 2003. By that point, I will expect the Scouts to be able to not only follow a meeting plan, but develop individual meetings (without repeating the same things over and over) and long range plans for the troop in regards to advancement and outdoor activities. Also, when adults go to a campout, if the Scouts are trained correctly and have high standards set for them, the adults should just be an insurance policy enjoying watching the Scouts run their own program.

slontwovvy-

Thanks for the info, but my friend finished up at Yale in 1994 and has since proudly sewed the red, white, and black of Chippewa back on.

I've got an interesting, but good situation in my troop right now. I have three Scouts that are looking at getting their Tenderfoot in the next week and could be finished with their second class requirements in the next couple of weeks. We have a COH on March 4, so the kids are scrambling to get their stuff done.

If they finish both sets of requirements before getting a BOR for the one, do they have to have separate BOR for each rank, or if they do, how long does it need to be between the different BOR?

One requirement that can be used to prevent/delay the advancement of a Scout is the one requiring he show Scout Spirit in his daily life. It is kind of like the BSA's equivalent to a parent telling a child around Christmas, "If you misbehave, then Santa will put you on his list of bad boys and girls and not bring you presents". When I've done SM conferences with Scouts, I basically do three things. First, I ask them questions about how they feel about the troop, what has happened, and what they would like to see both for themselves and the troop. I'll also ask them some questions about other activities going on in their life at the time. Second, I'll let them know the things they are doing right, often giving specific examples in order to encourage them to repeat them. Finally, I'll let them know where they need to improve. It may be a uniforming issue (basically wearing what they have correctly) or a behavioral issue.

When I did the second class BOR with our challenge Scout, I not only talked about those things with him, but also wrote them down (a suggestion from someone on this message board) and told him to show it to his parents. I also made sure he knew that although I didn't expect him to be perfect, I did expect him to make some improvements in certain areas (being on time, not interrupting meetings, obeying the PL, etc.) and that if he didn't show improvement, I could delay him getting his 1st class (his eyes got very big at the thought). A few weeks ago, while the Scouts were cleaning up the meeting room, he was over at the book table. The PL told him what he needed to do for his share (a very easy job) and he ignored it. When I reminded him about the Scout Spirit requirement, his eyes got big again and he got to work.

I've got one other Scout that I've got on alert for a behavioral issue (he constantly and loudly blames others when something goes wrong) that he needs to work on. Fortunately, his parents are very happy I'm pushing him to improve in this area. He now has a concrete reason why he can't continue that and has been watching himself a little bit better over the past couple of months.

A lot of the confrontations that occur over BOR and SM conferences are things that should be taken care of beforehand. If watched properly, the SM conference and the BOR should just be technicalities when getting a rank.

Also, if the troop system is done well enough, then it shouldn't be a problem getting the quality you need out of a Scout. We have a Scout who is turning 18 in March and will be sliding in under the wire in finishing his Eagle. He is a good kid that has grown a lot under the past couple of years. However, he isn't what I would expect from an Eagle Scout. I'm not about to try and stop him (for one, his parents would rip my head off), but I'll be raising the standards (not changing the requirements) over the next few years. This Scout grew up in a Scout troop that had no systems, uniforms were not emphasized at all, and he was never trained as a leader. I became SM when he turned 17. He has gotten better about wearing his uniform in that time and has developed some as a leader, so I feel that his advancement to Eagle is warranted. However, I'll take the blame personally if a Scout in our troop a few years from now makes it to that point in the same fashion as he did.

As far as I've heard, you are not allowed to be a member in two different lodges. A friend of mine went to Yale and had to drop his registration in our home lodge while he was active in Connecticut. We still like to kid him now and then about his traitorous behavior. He said it almost killed him to sew a flap from another lodge on his shirt.

If you find a way to get around it, please post it. I hope to try living in another part of the country one of these days and couldn't bear the thought of wearing another lodge's flap (no insult intended, but the Chippewa Pride goes very, very deep).

Going with the subject of the post, my suggestion for you has to do with the youth leaders. I learned this from a friend who built up an inner city troop while in college and have applied some of the same principles to my troop as we are rebuilding.

Be careful about giving out positions to Scouts that aren't ready to handle them or having positions that are more honorary than needed. My friend's troop didn't have an SPL for the first two years they were in existence because my friend and the other adult leaders didn't feel they had anyone who could handle it. At first, they didn't have any positions. Then, as the need arose and the Scouts showed they were able to handle them, he gave out positions and made sure they fulfilled their obligations. After three years, they had a pretty full complement of leaders doing their jobs and the positions were seen as an honor and commitment rather than a patch to wear on the uniform and a check for the next rank.

My troop has been doing something similar. We only had a PL for a while. Last fall, we added a scribe, QM, historian, and librarian. They have all done a good job and should be ready to become patrol leaders once we get some new Scouts in over the next month or two. Once we get a second patrol up and going, we'll elect a senior patrol leader. Eventually, once we have enough quality leaders, we'll appoint an ASPL to oversee the troop staff (thus relieving the SPL of those duties). We have a couple of Scouts in my troop that want positions, but I don't feel are ready for them yet. Hopefully, in the next couple of months, they'll be ready for a position as some of the ones currently in a staff position become patrol leaders.

As the title says, I can't figure out how to figure out what my hat size is. I'm looking to buy an old field cap on Ebay and don't want to make the mistake of ordering the wrong size. I've got a beret from when I was a youth that still fits, but I can't read the tag with the size in it anymore.

If I could ask the BSA to do anything with uniforming (other than make it more cost efficient), I'd want them to bring back the field cap (my original troop I was in for a few months wore those and it looked really sharp with 20 guys wearing them) and the beret (I always wanted my troop to switch to that but they never would).

sctmom-

Thanks for the suggestions. I like the idea of a Back to Scouting night if we have that happen again. If it brings back one kid, it will be worth it.

I wish I could deal with a Webelos leader like yourself that took the time to really research what was happening with the Boy Scouts and making sure the kids in the den had options. Some of the Webelos leaders I've talked to act like we are trying to pull teeth when we invite them to a troop meeting or activity. Also, I'd love it if a parent who crossed over with their son said they wanted to sign up as a leader and be active. In fact, I'd probably have a heart attack.

We've tried to get more proactive in talking to first year Webelos leaders in making them more aware of the need to finish the program in a year and a half and checking out the Boy Scout program while first year Webelos so they can get a head start on learning about the Boy Scouts and giving the kids a good idea of what to look for when trying to decide on a troop. However, most of the Webelos leaders have no clue and say they have enough going on just to do their own program. I think it is something we can do better once we've built up our troop more and I'm not needed as much on a weekly basis to help with the meetings (the Scouts are doing more and more of it).

I'm trying to get a Webelos den of three who said they are definitely joining our troop to do joint activities with us until they officially cross over in May. The Webelos leader seems to like this idea and I'm supposed to go speak with his den and the parents when they meet on February 18. The group of four that crossed over last year did so in June, so we lost three of the four by the end of summer (including one who crossed over but never came to a troop meeting because it was baseball season).

Another wrinkle has developed in the situation. Unfortunately, I couldn't get ahold of the challenge Scout's parents over the weekend, so I didn't get to discuss the situation with them. Our challenge Scout was sick and didn't attend the meeting on Monday night, but his dad stopped by to take care of a couple of things. While a group of us adults were sitting around talking, one of them asked me how we looked on getting new Webelos crossing over. I told them we'll get anywhere from 3-16 over the next couple of months. We went on to talk about how I wanted to grow the troop over the next few years to about forty Scouts (what I feel is the ideal troop size) and pointed out (to all the adults present) some of the advantages of having a "larger" troop would have for the kids. The dad of our challenge Scout said he didn't want the troop to get any larger than 10-12 kids because he thought his son wouldn't get enough attention if the troop were larger. I managed to sidestep the question a little bit and reiterated a couple of the points, but he had a worried look on his face.

I know that one of the reasons why they chose our troop initially was because we were so small at the time. However, I think this Scout is too used to getting so much attention. His parents are great about spending time with him and his brother. He is in all special classes at school, so he gets special attention. For the first two years of his Scout career, he has been in a very small troop where he has been able to get a lot of individual attention (sometimes at the expense of the other Scouts). They've said that they want him to be normal and a productive, healthy, and happy adult. At what point are they going to stop expecting special attention for their son and not try to structure his life so he doesn't have to become independent?

With crossover season coming very soon, I was wondering how to get more Webelos to stay with Scouting. Every one keeps talking about the retention rate after one year. If my troop can get the kids to cross over and stay for a month or two, then we have no problem keeping them for a year or so. Our problem is 1) getting Webelos to cross over once their den has decided to join our troop; and 2) how to keep baseball season and summer vacations from destroying a Scouting career.

1. Only about 1/2 of the Webelos (15 packs within 10-15 minutes of the troop) in our area end up crossing over. Some of the packs are not recruited at all by Boy Scout troops while a few super packs (with 12+ 2nd year webelos each year) are fought over by 4-5 local troops. Obviously, I'm shooting more for the unrecruited packs at this point. I've tried calling every single one of the Cubmasters in our area to get the names and phone numbers of the Webelo leaders. Out of 15 packs, I was never able to get ahold of five packs. I left several messages explaining the reason for my call (on answering machines), but I never received a call back. Then, out of the ten packs I did call the Webelo leaders, three didn't contact me back once again. That left us down to seven packs, four of which were the super packs that everyone is trying to recruit and two others that we were trying for with another troop. I think a big reason why a lot of kids never cross over is because the Cub leaders don't make any effort to help them move on. How can we change that?

2. Although the Webelos program is designed to be a year and a half so the Webelos can cross over in February or March, many still don't cross over until the Cub program ends in May or June. When that happens, we always have kids that crossover but their parents say "he's in the middle of baseball season, so he can't do Scouts right now" or "We're travel a lot during the summer, so he can't come to Scouts until fall", or "We need a break in the summer, but we'll be back in the fall". We've tried both the nice approach of letting them know what kind of great activities and the wonderful learning experiences they'll have over the next couple of months and it would be a great experience for their son to have and also the approach of letting them know that virtually every Scout that tells us that never returns.

We had a pack that used to feed into us (until it folded) that between 1996 and 1998 crossed over 25 Scouts into our troop in April. However, this pack always shut down after their April pack meeting and didn't do anything again until September. The parents looked so proud that their sons were joining the Boy Scouts and were so happy that their sons were continuing on in their Scouting careers (Oh, being an Eagle Scout will look so good on his college applications...)

However, they always said that they didn't do Scouts during baseball season or over the summer and they would be back in the fall. Over those three years, two of the 25 Scouts that crossed over stayed over the summer. Amazingly, they both stayed over two years (one only left because his family moved to another state, where he picked up with another troop). The other 23 were never seen again and when I ran into their parents in the fall, they wondered why their sons didn't want to come back to Scouts.

Does anyone have any solutions on how to cut these problems off at the stem?

I've got two things to say in regards to wearing the complete uniform:

1. It needs to be done correctly. We've had Scouts that wear the uniform, but wear it very sloppily. They complain that they look like dorks with the uniform on. I just tell them that if they wear it like that, they do look like a dork. However, if they tuck in their shirts, iron the uniform on occasion, roll the neckerchief correctly, wear the shine the belt buckle and wear it brass on brass, and wear the hat correctly, then they look really sharp.

2. I've been Scoutmaster for almost a year now and I've put a lot of emphasis on correct uniforming. The Scouts are starting to respond and I can tell you that the difference in attitude is incredible. The meetings where the Scouts are correctly uniformed, we have fewer discipline problems, energy levels are better, and there is a much greater sense of pride.

Give my troop a couple more years, and I think we'll actually look good enough to go in Scouting Magazine (joke).

We've had a discussion in our committee meetings a couple of times in recent months about people taking on regular responsibilities. While the parents in the troop have been good supporters and really done a lot of work to support the troop program, I have to continually ask people to fulfill certain responsibilities. For example, different adults take turns handling the administrative aspects of our campouts, such as the permission forms, reservations, medical forms, etc. Each time we have a campout, I have to find someone to handle that. I've tried to get someone to be our outdoor program chair or ASM of Outdoor Program (whatever) so they could take the task of finding someone to do it each month. I've told them they wouldn't have to handle it each time, but they would just need to find someone to do it each time (like I do now). No one wants to have that "permanent" responsibility.

When I delegate a responsibility to someone, I tell them to always feel free to call me with questions, but I stand back and let them do it. A couple of times, we've had plans fall through and have to scramble last second to get an activity together because the person in charge of it let something slide and I didn't (couldn't) stay on top of them to make sure it got done. I need to someone who can follow through with the person in charge of the activity to make sure it gets done.

Do I sound relatively clear on this, or am I just rambling?

How do other troops split up the duties for their ASM's? I've heard that some have an ASM assigned to every patrol. Other troops have an ASM of program, ASM of admin, etc.

eisley-

Do you want to trade? I'l throw in a first round draft pick as well. Our Scout just talks louder if he thinks we are ignoring him. His first act when he enters the meeting room (if he is on time, which is a 50/50 chance) is to come up to me and tell me how wonderful he is. Of course, unless I'm in the middle of talking to someone (which is often), I'll tell him "That's wonderful, good for you" or something similar.

If I am speaking to someone or if he comes in during the opening ceremony (not unusual), then he usually will cut right in with the wonderful news about himself. His parents have been working with him to try and get him to understand that he shouldn't interrupt people while they are in a conversation, but it is something he was allowed to get away with for years and doesn't want to have to change.

I'm really hoping that we'll be laughing about this down the road after he really grows up, earns his Eagle, and spends a couple of years working really well with the younger Scouts. For now, we'll just keep grinning and bear it. As challenging as this kid can be, I'd rather put up with him than a kid we had a few years back who threatened the other Scouts with his knife and ended up in the juvenile home.

Something my troop did for about five years in a row was a day trip in canoes at our local river. The Scouts had to be 14 to go (no little kids) and the adults who led the trip had to be under 30 (no parents). It was much more fun and relaxed than a normal trip, as we didn't have as many "restrictions". However, I still didn't allow swearing and other things that they shouldn't be doing. However, a water fight or two (or seventy-seven) was known to happen within three minutes of our departure. We'd usually spend about 5-6 hours out there chasing and trying to drown each other. I was an absolute blast that the guys who went (who are all now 20-25 in age) still laugh about. By the way, our record is 36 for the most times a single canoe was flipped in a day.

I'd hope to have your "problems" down the road. It is definitely not unusual for Scouts that hit Life to slow down on the way to Eagle. My troop has had 12 Eagles in the past 18 years, only two of which earned it before they turn 17 (they were both 16 1/2). All but one of our Eagles earned their Life rank by the age of 14. We've also had two dozen Scouts get to Life but not get their Eagles. I believe there are several reasons for this:

1. High School Activities. Many Scouts are active in high school activities such as sports, student government, band, drama, etc. One of my buddies growing up in the troop got his Life at 13 (about 2 1/2 years after joining). His progress slowed down a little bit at that point. When he got into high school, he got very involved in band and drama, with competition marching band in the fall and musical in the spring taking up a large amount of his time. He would be a part timer during those times and work on his merit badges and such during the summer and winter. He finished his Eagle project the summer before he turned 18 and only had two merit badges to go (two of the easier ones). Of course, marching band took up all his time in the fall and the school decided to move the musical from spring to winter. Neglecting the pleas of his parents and the taunts of his fellow Scouts, he reached his 18th birthday in March of that year still needing just two merit badges for his Eagle. He still kicks himself to this day for not finishing it. At least he had the character to come to a troop meeting a month after he turned 18 and tell the guys not to make the same mistake he did.

2. Other Scout activities. I got my Life in 16 months (minimum time back then) with 16 of my 21 merit badges finished. It took me another 62 months to get my Eagle. What happened? I got inducted into the OA the next month and was elected a chapter officer the next month. I got extremely active in the OA (earning my Vigil almost two years before my Eagle) and count it as the greatest experience of my Scouting life. Other Scouts get into high adventure. Still others realize that earning badges isn't everything and start to focus outward (being a leader in their patrol/troop) instead of on themselves (earning merit badges).

3. As I've stated in other threads, the Eagle award has too much emphasis put on it. People sprout the "only 2% of all Scouts make Eagle" stat as if it were an upcoming storm. The more it is talked about, the more fearsome it seems. Then, when the storm comes, people realize it wasn't as bad as people were making it out to be. Many Scouts are intimidated by the requirements, thinking they will take some gargantuan effort requiring a PhD to complete. Just about every Eagle I've seen over the past dozen or so years has said that earning their Eagle was no where as hard as it was made out to be by themselves and others. The work wasn't that hard. It was just a matter of getting it started and staying consistent. It wasn't any harder than doing the earlier ranks, but the perception made it seem incredibly difficult.

4. Outside influences. As we all know, Scouts are not immune to the influences that other teenagers face. One of my early mentors in Scouts was my first patrol leader, a kid that was a year older than me. To most of us, he was larger than life and would someday conquer the world. He made Life before 13 and had his Eagle project finished when he was 14. Unfortunately, he got in with a bad group of kids and not only didn't finish his Eagle, but got into drugs and never even finished high school. Last I heard, he moved to Texas at 18 to live with a family friend and try to start his life over. I've also seen kids go a little astray when they hit high school, but then get their acts together as they get closer to 18 and finish up their Eagle.

4. Precedent. I was the only one of the 12 original members of my troop to eventually get his Eagle (although six of us made Life). The guys that came in behind me sat at Life as well, probably because they couldn't fathom the possibility of getting their Eagle before me. Also, since I was almost 18 before I got my Eagle, a trend was started that has lasted ever since. I'm still looking for the kid who will get his Eagle at 14 or 15 to break the trend.

If you've got 31 kids "stuck" at Life, here are a couple of ways to push them along.

1. Get them in pairs (or threes or fours) so they can work on it together. Getting a "running mate" will help create the peer pressure and support needed to get things done. I've seen cases where five Scouts that went all the way through Cubs together joined a troop and got their Eagles together several years later. They were a team and created a synergistic affect.

2. If you have someone that is a well-respected leader among those Lifes, put the push on him to get it done. Once he passes that barrier, a few others will ride in his wake. Once I got my Eagle, the flood gates opened. Out of the twelve Eagles in my troops history (I was second), seven of them were members of my troop at the time of my Eagle Court of Honor and all of them earned it in the next five years (four in the next two years), not to mention that made Life in that time frame. I was gone to college during that time (thus minimizing the amount I worked with them), and we went through four Scoutmasters in that time frame. However, once they saw it happen, they got inspired.

If you can really figure out how to get those kids over the hump, write a book and you'll be able to live off of the royalties. Good Luck.

We've getting a bit on the heavy in the Open Discussion section as of late (some of those discussions may want to go to the Issues and Politics Section), so I thought I'd lighten things up a bit by bringing up this thread again.

I was corresponding with our JLTC director recently and she asked me some of the things we used to do for ceremonies and traditions when we first started.

One had to do with our end of the week banquet on Friday night. Once dinner was ready, all the participants would be in the dining area at their tables with the SPL at the front. The staff would then do a processional into the dining area and form two lines. The ASPL would escort one of the cooks (all decked out in chef's hat and apron) with a cooked steak (the traditional meal) on a plate to the SPL at the front. The cook would then present the beef to the SPL for approval. The SPL would then cut off a piece, sniff it, look it over very carefully, raise the piece before the group and then put it in his mouth. After obviously savoring it for a couple of moments, he would then announce that the beef was definitely top notch and was fit for our consumption.

Another tradition that has since died in our lodge (I'll give you one guess by my user name). We had written new words to "America the Beautiful" to fit our lodge. The entire lodge would sing the song and when finished, the lodge chief would get up on a chair, table, etc. and do a dramatic interpretation of the words to the song while the rest of the lodge (on one knee with their hands pointed toward the chief) would hum the melody of the song. That was followed by one or two rounds of our lodge fight song. Of course, the other lodges in our section didn't like it, but to this day, we never felt more pride than when we sang that song together.

DedDad-

Yes, it is 2-3 times a month. I don't think it's something he plans, but he seizes many opportunities to bring attention to himself. If it isn't an "injury" (which is the 2-3 times a month), then we'll be in the middle of a skill session or planning and he'll just spout off (more than loud enough for everyone to hear) something about himself and doesn't stop until he's finished. I've found that if you let him spout for about 1-1.5 minutes and then continue on like nothing happened, that usually satisfies him for about 10 minutes or so (enough time for us to move onto the next activity).

On the other extreme, he tends to isolate himself a lot. Our church has hundreds of books on tables in the basement where we meet (they kind of operate as a used book store as a fundraiser). This kid is a bookworm that every week has to be taken away from the book tables. He'll spend an entire meeting there if we let him. There have been times when we've called for him to rejoin the group after wandering off and he just ignores us. We let him do it for the most part, as we don't want to neglect the other Scouts that are paying attention and trying to get things done. The only problem is that he whines when he is the only one not getting his book signed off for an activity. Fortunately, his parents know the act and have told him many times that if he wants to get things done, he has to pay attention and stay with the group.

Therefore, he is almost always either interrupting or isolating himself, with very few times when he is doing neither. I like the idea of a restrictive non-punishment time out. That way, he can sit by himself and "heal" We would just have to make sure he didn't go and hit the book table for the rest of the meeting (I could picture him walking though the door at the beginning of a meeting, tripping, and then limping to the book table and saying he needed to heal while reaching for a book).

By the way, I do appreciate everyone's feedback on this. I don't have other adult leaders I can really discuss this with (our previous SM thinks I should have never let him join the troop and wouldn't have a problem with me pushing him out), so it really helps to get some different perspectives.

Six ASM's???? Do any of you want to come work with me? I'd love to have some that could relieve me of some of my duties. If he trusts you enough to have the title, then he should trust you with the duties.

"Responsibility without authority is futile"