Chippewa29

Two years ago, as our challenge Scout and his parents were looking for a troop, his mom called me on a couple of occasions (we ended up talking about her son for about three hours or so total) and let me know her son's situation. I had met the kid on a visit by his den to our meeting, so I had a little bit of an idea. She also asked me some questions. I don't remember all of them, but I do remember her asking me "What kind of impression did you get of my son?" I told her he had some good traits, but he needed to learn how to use them in the right way. When they decided to join our troop, she said that was the answer that helped them make their decision. The rest of the Scout leaders tried to skirt around the issue while I was honest but optimistic.

You and the mom need to sit down and figure out some questions to ask the leaders and also what kinds of answers you want to hear. Be up front and honest with the leaders and don't candy coat the situation. Be as forthright as you have been on this forum. If they don't want the kid, you'll be able to detect it.

In regards to the question of what would it take for scouter.com to put up a chat room: Chat room software is actually very high level and requires some extra connectivity that other software (like we are currently using) doesn't need. Also, with a chat room, it is totally unmoderated. Once something is said, it can't be edited out. If someone wanted to come on and cause trouble (as we've seen on this forum), not much could be done to stop it. I think using the Yahoo chat room (or a similar independent) would be the best idea. With their size and technical capabilities, it would be much easier for them to squash any potential problems.

Like has been said before, if it is a planned troop or patrol event open to every Scout in the troop/patrol, then it should be allowed. The mode of thinking prescribed above would mean that attending a National Scout Jamboree wouldn't be regarded as fulfilling that requirement, while a troop's local day hike to a nearby state park would. It doesn't make sense to me.

Fortunately, the church that sponsors us is very good about letting have pretty much full run of the church when we need it. We'll do a service project for the church about once a year. As long as nothing is broken or missing, the church stays out of our way. We'd love to have someone from the church be a member of the troop, but we haven't had any luck getting the Webelos who are members of the church to crossover to our troop.

My perspective is that they provide with great facilities and allow us to run our program as we see fit. To me, that is a great CO. Unless someone wants to be involved in the troop on a weekly basis (rather than a few times a year), I'd rather not have to give any of the troop's power up to a non-troop church member.

If the newer Webelo will still cross over to a troop and become active with the later crossover date, you are probably right. However, the later in the year I see kids cross over, the more chance is they will drop out before the next fall. Also, if this kids buddies are crossing over, it may be awkward for him to join at a later date and "be behind" his peers. Please keep us posted on this, as I'd like the information for future reference in case I have parents that want to discuss it.

There are probably some issues there that aren't readily apparent. The SM may feel that his son needs to grow up and learn responsibility, so the only way he can do that is by being the SPL. The SM may feel like he's losing face if his son is forced to step down as SPL.

There may also be some issues from home. The SM may be getting pressure from his wife to put their son in the spotlight. My troop had that happen in the late 80's. The SM's son was babied by mom all the time and whenever dad tried to punish him (he was a trouble maker) or do something to help him grow up, the kid would run to mommy and she wouldn't edify her husband and got him out of his punishment. The SM told me a couple of times that he didn't know what to do with his son because his wife kept "overturning" anything his son didn't like. You guys may want to have someone talk to the SM about other issues outside of the troop that could be causing this.

Best of luck. I hope that this can be resolved with all parties benefiting. I think the SPL may be relieved to step down.

OGE-

Yes, it is the one and same. I'm glad I don't let my instinct take over at times, as I know that calling him a baby isn't the right thing to do. I think my real question is that I don't think he should be babied all the time, but what do you say to a kid like that?

The other Scouts are tired of his act and basically ignore him (the game continued on even after he started crying), but fortunately don't pick on him or say anything to him.

In regards to your comment that ADD kids are often 2-3 years behind in maturity: I wish we were that lucky. I'd say this kid is probably more like a eight or nine year old.

Does the kid want attention? Absolutely yes. His parents are good people that work normal hours (40 hours a week basically) and spend a lot of time with him and his brother (family vacations, nightly help with homework, day trips to museums, etc.), so I know he isn't lacking from attention at home. I'm wondering if maybe he gets too much attention at home and school (he belongs to both the special ed and gifted programs at his school) so he doesn't know how to function if he isn't the center of attention. His parents are always quick to praise him when he accomplishes something (he always tells them immediately when he does something, whether they are in the next room helping out at the meeting or come to pick him up).

Myself and the two older Scouts that work with him a lot make sure we praise him when does good things, even if it is just retrieving something from the other room or putting a chair away (we've discussed this and decided we needed to give him attention for the good things to make sure he didn't do bad things to get attention).

I think our challenge Scout is constantly wanting people to tell him how wonderful he is. At our meeting last night, we had a group of eight Webelos visiting on a recruiting trip. The first thing out challenge Scout did when he came into the room and saw me talking to them was to go up to one of the Webelos, look at his colors with the activity badges, and say "when I was a Webelo, I got more activity badges than you." This is very typical behavior for this Scout. Fortunately, one of the older Scouts discretely asked him to help out setting up something and got him out of there before he got a chance to prove his superiority to all of the Webelos present.

I'll probably call his parents tonight to see how they react when he gets "hurt". I may find that it is different than when he is at Scouts.

I just had something come to me. Please tell me if this makes sense. When our challenge Scout joined us almost two years ago, a big reason his parents liked our troop was because we only had three Scouts at the time and he could get a lot of attention they felt was needed. He was basically the "new" Scout for six months until we had a few more join and was still seen by most everyone as the new Scout in the troop even today. Could he see these new Webelos as a threat to his attention and put on his act last night so he could be the center of attention for everyone?

I'm actually dealing with this same issue right now. We have a group of Webelos that won't be ready to cross over until May. I'm trying to get them to start participating in troop activities a couple of months before, so we can get them hooked into our troop before summer (and baseball season) swallows them up. I've heard of troops where the kids basically pull double duty for a couple of months. They go to all the troop meetings (which become their den meetings) and campouts, but still attend the pack meetings once a month and any pack activities they have those last couple of months.

I'm sure many of you will smile when you read this, because I'm sure you've dealt with it before. It is kind of funny, but at the same time, it is a semi-serious issue that I'm going to have to deal with.

At our troop meeting last night, our Scouts were out in the field behind the church playing a game toward the end of the meeting. I was hearing lots of laughter when all of a sudden, I hear someone screaming like his leg was chopped off. All of a sudden, I see our challenge Scout running toward me with crying and screaming (my four year old niece doesn't cry that much when she gets hurt and I wouldn't describe her as tough at all). Apparently, while playing the game, he had collided with another Scout (the other Scout told me a few minutes later).

When I stopped him and asked what was wrong, he said someone hit him in the eye. I didn't see any blood, so I took him inside and had one of the moms (an RN) check his eye out. She couldn't figure out which eye it was (basically, he wasn't hurt). After checking it out some, she said he was fine and didn't even think he got poked in the eye.

Ten minutes later, we had our closing ceremony and he refused to take part, saying his eye hurt too bad. Fortunately, the other kids just ignored him. The Scout who collided with him felt bad and I reassured this Scout that he hadn't done anything wrong (the kid doesn't have a mean bone in his body).

Knowing this challenge Scout's history (he does this about 2-3 times a month and has never come close to even requiring a band aid), I wonder how I should deal with him when he does this (it seems like he just wants attention). Of course, I'll be on high alert every time to make sure he actually isn't hurt. However, once I confirm that he isn't hurt, how do I treat him? My instinct (especially after so many times) is to tell him to stop crying and acting like a baby (I have not done this). Some kids you can do that with, while I know that others need to be babied a little bit. This kid is going to be 13 in a few months. I was almost embarrassed not only by the kids howling, but also how he pouted about for the next fifteen minutes until he left. I didn't get a chance to talk to his mom when she came to pick him up, but I know I should probably do that.

Any suggestions?

As long as the pets aren't causing a distraction at the meetings/events, I don't see a problem with it. However, if the dog is doing anything to disturb the other units, then it should probably be left at home (being alone for eight hours wouldn't kill it).

We had a situation once at a camporee. One of the troops had a dog with them. The first night, the dog kept our section of the camp up much of the night with its yelping. The next morning, after getting complaints from several neighboring troops, the owner took it home. However, I've seen other times people have had dogs at those events and the dogs have been very well behaved and not been a problem.

bigbeard-

I applaud you for sticking to your guns on that. The Scout that did the work got his reward. The Scouts that didn't do the work still had a good time, but didn't receive something that they didn't earn. I wonder if the parents that wanted you to do storytime (picture yourself reading the book to them and showing the pictures along the way, ala a kindergarten teacher) have any concept of what initiative is. You are presenting your Scouts with opportunities. It is up to them to take advantage of those opportunities.

buffalo2-

I like how you guys spread it out over three very separate days. That way, Scouts who come unprepared the first day can get a reality check and come for the final sessions more prepared and ready to actually earn the badge as opposed to the one day sessions or coming unprepared to summer camp.

I like the idea of the Lumberjacking MB. I think it would be a great challenge for the Scouts. However, doesn't the BSA have the Paul Bunyan award? If I remember, it is patch of a full doubled bladed ax. If they still have that award, I wouldn't mind seeing them convert it to a merit badge.

I like all the responses about needing to raise the bar. It's good to see that our Scout leaders are smart enough to recognize that the youth of today need to be challenged and shouldn't just be given things to "boost their self-esteem".

Unfortunately, many people (kids included) today confuse success and recognition. They believe that as long as they are recognized, they are successful (this is a topic we could discuss for months). We all know that that is not necessarily true.

I do believe that it is important for people to get recognized for doing something positive, their motivation for doing to positive thing shouldn't be to get recognized (I hope that is understandable).

However, I don't agree with the philosophy that Scouts (no matter what age) should get a badge for doing every little thing. As stated earlier in the post (and in other posts), some requirements for certain merit badges are harder than others, yet they are all equal for advancement. I think back and realize that the easiest merit badge I ever did was Pets (no surprise). What did I get out of it? Nothing, really except for a badge. The experiences I cherish most came from doing Environmental Science and Lifesaving, as they were so challenging and forced me to stretch and learn and grow. I see parents/Scout leaders whose reasoning for our Scouts doing a particular activity is so they can get a patch/medal. They want to make it as easy as possible for the kids. Why? I'm not sure if they don't believe the Scouts can handle anything harder or if the adults want to make it easier on themselves.

There is a historical trail in a major city I did as a youth. It is maybe four miles long and in order to qualify for a medal (not just a patch), you go to these different historical sites along the trail and answer some questions from the plaques presented at the sites. It takes all of 2-3 hours (including rest breaks at the soda stands on each corner). Then, you pay a fee and get a really nice medal.

Compare that to a historical trail in our council. Before the trip, you have to write a 300 word essay on the historical significance of the trail. The first day is 11 miles of backpacking (everything used on the trail must be carried by the Scout) up and down large hills for a good part of the way. The next day is only seven miles and the terrain is easier. After the trip, you have to write a 250 word report on the trip and hand draw a map of the trail. Then, you get to pay for the medal. Which of these two medals do you think I cherish more?

Sure, there are going to be some merit badges where the requirements are harder and some where they are easier. We just need to be careful that the recognitions we promote to the Scouts are based on the Scouts interests (if they are into animals, then Pets is a great merit badge) and not on the relative ease so they can just make it to their next rank (and thus get more recognition). I think that is why many of us have shown our discontent with the Merit Badge Colleges (we refer to it as Giveaway Day in these parts).

All in all, I say three cheers for giving the Scouts a challenge. They are guaranteed to be challenged at sometime in their life. Shouldn't we be preparing them for it?

Most adult males I have seen with long hair and earrings (outside of motorcycle gangs) tend to be very open and accepting people and don't judge people by the their race, religion, etc.

However, 99% of the young boys (before high school) that I've seen with earrings have been trouble makers that had very little respect for any kind of authority. Back in the early 90's, another rage were those rattails the boys wore (usually along with an earring). We had 3 or 4 Scouts join our troop during that time span with rattails and earrings, and they were nothing but trouble. Usually, when a Scout quits the troop, we try to talk to them to get them to stay. However, there are some where you are saying "thank you" under breath when they leave. The earring kids were each one of those.

On the other hand, we had a Scout in the mid- to late-90's that like to do interesting things with his hair. It started out as bleaching in different patterns. Then, he went for a couple of years where he'd grow his hair long, wear a mohawk for a couple of weeks, shave his head, and start the process over again. Later on, he showed up with purple or blue hair at times. He was a good kid that never caused problems. He was always a little different (and continues to be so to this day), but he always worked well with the younger Scouts and did what was expected of him. I never had a problem with him because he knew when to conform and when to be unique.

Rooster7- I'm glad you haven't had to listen to some of the junk I've heard over the years. Fortunately, most of the people I've seen do it were people I didn't respect and ended up not staying in the Scouts for a long time or they were older Scouters who grew up in a time and place where it was acceptable to openly talk down someone of another ethnicity (basically, think of Archie Bunker in a Scout uniform). In the metro area where I live, you don't hear of a lot of racial problems and most everyone works with people of different ethnicities. However, once the work day is done, they all go home to neighborhoods that have been segregated by choice. It is a weird thing. People have tended to settle in cities and neighborhoods where they are close to "their own kind", but many (I hope it is most) of them wouldn't be bothered if someone that wasn't the same ethnicity moved into the neighborhood as long as they were good people.

Rooster, please be careful when paraphrasing. In your last post, you misquoted my previous post and those two letters different make a huge difference in my statement.

If you are talking about a Scout needing to do a presentation to the troop for a merit badge or rank, then the Scout needs to speak with either the SPL or the PLC to request time to do the presentation before the troop.

I have a few questions for you:

1. How is the SPL not doing his job? Is he not showing up for events? Is he showing up, but goofing around all the time and not setting a proper example?

2. When is his term over? You mentioned he was elected in October. Is his term over in April or October? If his term ends in April, you can probably ride it out the next couple of months and if he is really doing a bad job, there are two options: he doesn't get reelected by the Scouts (the best solution for a Scout-run troop) or if you think he will get re-elected because of his charisma, then the adults need to convince him to "retire" after this term.

3. What are the duties of the ASPL? Is his job to just be the back up in case the SPL doesn't show up? Or does he have specific duties beyond filling in for the absent SPL. If he doesn't have specific duties when the SPL is present, the position is honorary and a waste of a good Scout's ability.

4. When the ASPL is "taking over", is he dislodging the SPL while the SPL is trying to do his job, or is he justing filling in the gaps he sees in the SPL's leadership. If he's trying to displace the SPL, then he should be reined in. However, if he is filling the gaps the SPL is lacking, then he is showing good initiative and being a good leader (feel lucky).

5. When the ASPL is "taking over", is he taking a servant leader's attitude and being humble about helping the troop or is he trying to just put himself in the spotlight and make himself look good?

If you (or anyone else) would like some ideas on how to use an ASPL, I wrote an article back in college called "How to be an effective ASPL" and it describes my experiences acting as ASPL for our Jamboree troop and for two years at JLTC (I served under the same incredible SPL in all those circumstances). If you'd like a copy of it, feel free to get me you email address and I'll forward a copy to you.

If I remember my Scouting history well enough, it seems like the BSA has been very progressive and inclusive over the years. Didn't the BSA start a project around WWI to try and recruit inner-city and African-American Scouts? Also, didn't the BSA make major efforts to recruit and include Hispanic Scouts sixty or seventy years ago? I never had a clue there were so many different religions and denominations until I joined the Boy Scouts and saw all the different religious awards available.

I've seen my share of bigots in the BSA, making comments like "check for your wallet" whenever an African-American or Hispanic Scout walked by or complaining about how those "Ay-rabs" are trying to take over the world by buying all the gas stations. I've even heard some comments by adults in BSA uniforms about how you can't trust those Catholics or Mormons and their secretive ways. Unfortunately, there have been enough of those people to make the BSA (with its basically conservative views) seem like an exclusionary organization, even when it has been one of the most progressive and inclusionary service groups over the past century.

Although I believe the Eagle award is a great way to develop character, its requirements themselves don't necessarily develop the character. It is the experiences the Scout goes through while working on those requirements where the character is developed. If a Scout wants, it isn't really that hard to get their Eagle award. Some merit badges are very easy to get (Pets, Leatherwork, etc.) and we've all seen projects that we've questioned the quality of. Therefore, someone saying they are an Eagle Scout unfortunately needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The experiences along the way make the Scout, not fulfilling a set of requirements.

When I first joined the Scouts, I wanted to make Eagle in two years. I got to Life in 16 months with 16 or 17 merit badges. I had also just finished a six month term as SPL of my troop (at 12 1/2, I was fifth or sixth oldest in a troop of 16-18 Scouts at the time). Fortunately, a month after getting my Life, I got a life. I was inducted into the OA and by coincidence (luck) was elected a chapter officer a month after that. I became very active in our lodge, eventually getting my Vigil Honor at 16 and receiving some much needed (and now much appreciated) mentoring from some older Arrowmen. I ended up getting my Eagle about four months before I turned 18. My fondest memories and biggest growth experiences as a Scout didn't come from my troop or earning the ranks, but rather from the experiences I got in the OA.

Going back, if I had to choose the best Scouts my troop ever produced, I would have to include two non-Eagles in the top five. One worked at summer camp and became a certified climbing instructor for our council (at age 20), but never went beyond Star because he just didn't like the academic aspect of Scouting. Another one was just two merit badges short (he had finished his project) when he turned 18. He has also become a quality citizen (respected school teacher and coach). There are a couple of Eagles in my troop that I don't think really deserved the award, but as they completed the requirements, they got the award. Too much emphasis has been put on earning the Eagle as compared to developing quality people. This is similar to how these days people place too much emphasis on GPA in school (kids go for a good grade sometimes in lieu of learning the material). It has been shown time and again that the most successful people aren't necessarily the ones with the best academic credentials. What is the saying "A students go work for the B students in companies owned by the C students?"

My troop had a Scout about ten years ago who was going for all the merit badges and ended up earning eighty or so before he realized at sixteen that he wanted to accomplish other things in Scouts and life. He was accused (or should I say, his Dad was) of pencil whipping. In reality, he didn't need to cheat, because he had every possible advantage without cheating. He was an only child whose parents basically revolved their lives around him and were active Scouters. Mom only worked part-time and Dad's work schedule was very flexible. Also, the family had a nice bit of money from inheritance so finances were never a problem. Time and money were no object for the parents to help their son earn all those merit badges. He did the requirements, but his parents laid the groundwork and provided the opportunities for him to do it (opportunities most Scouts wouldn't have even with normally supportive parents). Yes, I believe it is possible to earn all those badges, but a ton of factors need to fall into place, including the desire of the Scout.

I have two possible suggestions for the lack of attendance at outings:

1. I hope this is absolutely not true, but a few years back, my troop had a "Scout" that would smoke when the Scouts went exploring the woods on a campout (adults weren't around) and threatened the other Scouts if they told on him (he was older and always had a knife on him). For a few outings, we had lower than normal attendance. Finally, it came out and the "Scout" was exposed and ended up leaving, but not before half of the troop had quit (none of them would come back after he left, unfortunately). You may want to do some investigating in that area.

2. You may have some Scouts in your troop that just aren't into being outdoors. Some kids are in Scouts and like the academic aspects (merit badges), but think that roughing it is a hotel without room service. A troop in our area really presents itself as a tough, outdoors oriented troop. That turns off some people, but the members they do get are really fired up to get outdoors. While they don't have a large troop (15-18 Scouts normally), they usually get 80%+ attendance on their outings. Your troop may not have the right personnel to fit the program you want to have. While I wouldn't chase out any of the current Scouts, I'd make it a point when recruiting to show the Webelos that you are an outdoors troop. If they don't like the message, they won't come. However, if they do, they'll probably be excited to go camping. That is a long term (several years) solution.

Very interesting discussion. I'm only going to comment on one part and this will be pretty tame.

As far as changing the Boy Scout rank: If a Scout doesn't like the way the patch looks, he can do some work and get his Tenderfoot, which is a badge that looks much nicer. Eventually, if he works hard enough, then he gets to wear the best looking patch, the Eagle. The "cool" looking patches can come in the form of event patches. For most Scouts, what the rank patches look like doesn't matter. But rather, what the rank represents.

Last year, I had a parent on my track team complain to me about the high cost of her daughter competing in track and cross country. I did some research to see how much it cost per year (this includes both XC and track).

3-4 pairs running shoes $300

XC camp $40

2 sports bras $40

running shorts $20

Then I compared it to the other sports in our school. We were the second cheapest in the school, with only swimming being cheaper (they wear the least, so it makes sense). Several sports told the kids coming out they needed to plan on laying out at least $1000 to participate based on the equipment they would need, not counting what the school provided. Also, the kids don't have to pay a fee to the school to participate (some schools in our area require that). After I pointed those things out to that parent, she was glad her daughter was on my team and didn't have other, more expensive hobbies.

By the way, that was the cost per year. I know the BSA uniforms are overpriced (if you are in favor of moving the production overseas instead of having them made here in the USA, let the BSA know), but compare the cost of being outfitted for Scouts compared with these sports or a girl who is in dance (I couldn't believe the costs associated with dance, yet most parents don't blink when the write the checks for that), and you'll find it is relatively cheap. The uniforms, if properly cared for, will last until a Scout outgrows them and probably through 2-3 Scouts (we've had Scouts pass down uniforms and there have been some that have been used by three different Scouts over a period of several years before they disappear while still in good shape).

I believe that any Scout who is serious about wanting to do well with the program can come up with a uniform and take care of it. Besides, how often do they have to wear it? Four evenings a month for 2-3 hours and one weekend a month for a basic Scout. If they are really serious and get active in OA and need to wear the uniform more, then they probably will have the committment to get and maintain the uniform.

Just a quick interjection for a couple of people who have said they don't think that running is a good activity for getting in shape for hiking. I'll have to disagree. I've been running for 17 years (currently 40 mpw). In my troop in the past decade, we've had five adults who have had knee problems. How many of them were runners at any point in their lives? None. Currently, myself and three other adults in the troop run on a regular basis. How many of us have ever had problems with our knees? None. A physical therapist friend told me several years ago (I wish I could remember the exact number) that you are 3-4 times??? more likely to have knee problems if you are a non-runner as compared to a runner. It is a popular misconception that running causes knee problems. It is people running incorrectly (wrong shoes, wrong surface, bad technique, etc.) that can cause problems. Overall, running strengthens the joints and helps them become more resistant to injury. It also prevents muscle imbalances, which is a leading cause of knee problems.

Running is the best cardiovascular exercise to prepare for almost any type of physical activity. Most of our physical activities directly involved running. That is why it is used so much to condition for other sports. I'd like to see anyone who spends equal amounts of time running versus any other conditioning activitiy hit the trail together with packs and see who has an easier time.

All those people who say walking is just as good as running are only partially correct. For your overall health (health shape), equal times spent running and walking are the same. However, when you are preparing your body to perform (fitness shape, a higher level than health shape), running is far superior to walking.

I think it is great idea for Mike to start this thread. Too many people hit the trails unprepared. If anyone would like some information on flexibility and strength training to prepare for backpacking (I have some outstanding systems I've gotten from very successful coaches and physiologists), feel free to email me at info@merteres.com. I'm a track coach and have done some graduate work in exercise physiology. I'll be more than happy to help anyone develop a workable workout plan to help them prepare for the trail (or other activities) as I've done for the parents of the kids I coach. Of course, there is no charge for this. I like to consider it as a Good Turn to help some that wants to improve themselves.