Chippewa29

OGE- I definitely agree with you about not having hazing in the Scouts. I've always been one who believed it wasn't fun to play a joke on someone unless they could get you back. Also, I've never allowed hazing to occur in any form in my troop (fortunately, that has never been a problem for us). Looking back, I'm sure that the reason why the adult in my troop sent me back with those two young Scouts is so that trick wouldn't be played anymore. When I first posted this subject, it wasn't meant as a thread for people to post the best practical jokes they had played over the years. It was meant as a humorous thread for people to relate stories about the infamous Scouting "urban legends" we hear about over the years and if they ever had any encounters with them.

At camporees, everyone has seen new Scouts get sent out on practical jokes. One that has made the rounds quite often in our area is for a Left Handed Smoke Shifter.

While in high school, I was on the swim team and thus developed very good lung power. Sitting by a campfire on a Friday night at a camporee at age 16, I managed to change the direction of smoke (temporarily). Famous as a southpaw in my troop, one of our ASM's said, "you must be that left handed smoke shifter those new Scouts are always looking for." At that point, we all just kind of looked at each other and smiled, waiting for the opportunity to arrive.

The next day at lunch, sure enough, two brand new Scouts showed up (their shirts looked brand-spankin new with no stains and a stiff collar) asking for a left-handed smoke shifter. The same ASM heard them and said, "wait a minute, we'll go get him for you." He came and got me and I went back to camp with two obviously very proud young Scouts.

As we entered the patrol site, they beemed with pride when they showed their 14 year old patrol leader how they had accomplished their mission after checking with only five troops. The look on the PL's face when he turned around and saw me was priceless. He had absolutely no clue what to say. After a moment of awkward silence, I said "which direction would you like your smoke shifted?" He pointed weakly in a direction and as I went over to their fire, the wind changed direction (by coincidence) and sure enough, the smoke went the direction the patrol leader had pointed. With the jaw of every Scout in the patrol dropped to ground, I started to leave and said "you gentlemen have a nice day?"

Does anyone else have a story related to one of the Scouting "urban legends" they could share. I need some new ones as my troop has heard all of my good ones.

We had our court of honor tonight. I tried a few more things that I think really made some good impressions. First of all, I did the Book of Honor. Our oldest Scouts of course got to sign it all the way up to Life, while the younger Scouts go to sign it for either Boy Scout, Tenderfoot, and Second Class. There were a few looks of jealousy as a couple of guys saw their buddies sign the Second Class page while they only got to sign Tenderfoot. They made comments like, "I'm going to be signing my Second Class next Court of Honor and maybe my First Class".

Also, I presented each of the Scouts who had earned their First Class with a special Scout Stave that represented the completion of their basic Scouting skills. I even did a few fancy twirls before I presented it to them. Our PL asked if he could do the presentation next time. I said sure and he was practicing how he could do a fancy presentation. The parents were very impressed by it and the younger Scouts were saying they couldn't wait to get their First Class so they could get their "stick".

One other thing I did to help with the ceremony is to have the troop do a procession into the chapel where we held the Court of Honor. While they were marching in, a CD player played the Allegro section of Handel's "Water Music".

I was very glad to see the Scouts take a lot of pride in the ceremony and our developing troop. Does anyone have any other traditions I might be able to use on campouts (please snipe hunts or left hand smoke shifters) to further our developing troop?

Thanks you very much for your quick response. I was about to run out the door for the day when I came across your answer. It has been very helpful.

I've heard a story in the past of the significance of the Scout Stave. Does anyone know it? I need it for a Court of Honor tomorrow night. Thank you for your input.

Another tradition I'm starting in my troop is called the Book of Honor. When a Scout receives his rank at the Court of Honor, he'll sign his name in a special book I made up with pages for each rank. Right now, we only have a few signatures in it. However, I think after a few years, it will look pretty good with all the kids getting a chance to sign their name as another part of their progression to Eagle. Has anyone else done something like that and how did it work?

I know better than to mention all the overweight Scouters around. Lets just say those Scouters are hoping that the gay issue and smoking keep everyone busy so they won't have to face up to it. If being overweight is their worst attribute, I think I could live with that.

I had to laugh when I read Martha's post. Several years back, we had an adult leader directing the Scouts on policing the area while puffing on a cigarette. As he was finishing the last drag, he noticed a Scout walking right over a piece of paper. He called out to the Scout and while telling the Scout he needed to make sure we left the campsite better than we found it. As the Scout was standing watching and listening to him, he left blew out his last puff of smoke and through the butt on the ground. Those are the things that really blow my mind about people who insist it is ok to smoke in front of the Scouts. They tell the Scouts riding in the car to keep their hands in the car while moving, but they have their hand hanging out with a cigarette while going down the highway. The above example also demostrates my point. Also, I can't tell you how often I've seen an adult tell a Scout how important it is to obey the Scout Oath and Law (to keep myself physically strong, A Scout is Clean) or get on some Scouts for not producing a healthy enough menu for a campout and then walk out the door and light up a minute later. I wish they could see their hypocracy.

I'm trying to develop some traditions in our troop to develop more esprit de corps. If you have anything you think can build troop spirit, I'd love to hear it. One thing my jamboree troop did in 1989 was have a set of four marching drums we took with us (we had three really good drummers along with myself just trying not to look too bad) for campfires, shows, etc. We had cadences we marched to, cheers led by the drums, etc.

Has anyone else got any other ideas they would like to share?

I have a positive update on challenge Scout. He had his Scoutmaster conference tonight and did very well. He had some very good perspectives that have shown some growth on his part. He then had his board of review (we have a Court of Honor next week, so we had three SM conferences and three boards of review tonight) and the people who conducted it said he did very well and also commented that he seems to be growing up some. Also, during the rest of the meeting, he didn't wander off and did what he was told without whining or ignoring us. It may have had to do with my pointing out to him during his SM conference that in order for him to advance in the future and be a leader, he was going to need to improve in those areas (I had written it down and gave it to him so he could review it with his parents). It was probably the best meeting/activity he has had since he joined the troop almost two years ago. He seemed like one of the other kids. I'm hoping this meeting will start a new trend, as the past two weeks, he was very disruptive and whiny throughout the meetings. We are hoping that he shows some responsibility and continues to grow because we think that he could possibly be a good den chief for his mom's (and brother's) Webelos den.

When our troop had a lot of older Scouts (5-6 years ago), quite often they just wanted to hang out with each other. They were there for about 75% of the meetings (pretty good for 15-17 year olds). When we needed them to work with the younger Scouts, they were very good about it. Often, we found projects for them to do (work on troop equipment, etc.) where they could go off by themselves and socialize while they were working. As long as the Scouts are coming and helping out when needed, there's nothing wrong with allowing them time to socialize (out of sight of the younger Scouts).

With my troop, we travel in uniform. While at camp, the Scouts are required to wear their uniforms for meals (we dress for dinner especially), but while doing activities between meals, they can wear what they want.

The BSA policy is that to be a Boy Scout, a youth must be 1) 11 years old; or 2) 10 1/2 and finished with the fifth grade. Personally, I wouldn't allow someone who is not of "legal age" to be a member of my troop. If they are already in Cub Scouts, I would strongly encourage them (along with the rest of their den) to be a frequent visitor to our troop meetings and come to a couple of our campouts. However, I've seen some troops who let underage "geniuses" join the troop even though they've only been nine but are either in or have completed the fifth grade (basically, they skipped a couple of grades in school). Some of those Scouts have gone on to get their Eagle awards (most at 13 or 14), but in 90% of the cases, it was a very tough struggle for the Scouts as although they are intellectually ready for the Boy Scouts, they are not emotionally ready to spend time and participate in the activities with Scouts that are teenagers. It is hard enough for an 11 year old on the brink of going to middle school the next year to handle being around 14 and 15 year olds. The situation in my troop with our challenged Scout is a good example of the disparity in maturities within a person. Although this Scout is incredibly intelligent and has no problem with the intellectual aspects of Scouting, maturity-wise, he would still fit it in very well with the Cub Scouts even though he is 12 1/2 (whenever we've had any activity jointly with Cub Scouts, he has related to the Wolves and Bears very well and he still very much has that Cub Scout mentality even though he has been with the troop for almost two years).

If a 10 year old Webelo is bored with Cub Scouts, the den's program may need to be looked at. If the Webelos are doing the same thing as the seven year old Wolves, then I can believe he is bored. I was very fortunate that my Webelo leader (an Eagle Scout) ran our den more like a Boy Scout patrol than a Cub Scout den. We went hiking and practiced Boy Scout skills (I don't ever remember doing crafts in Webelos), but he purposely held us back from camping so we would have something to look forward to in Boy Scouts. Every single one of us in the den were absolutely fired up to join the Boy Scouts as soon as we were eligible.

I kind of have to laugh when people talking about the "mommy" factor when the Scouts go camping. My troop has one mom that camps with us about 4-5 times a year. She is actually very good about staying out of the way of the kids and letting them get things done. The dads (including her husband) are the ones that I've tried to rein in about letting the kids get things done so they can learn. Of course, I've seen the moms try to do everything when they go camping, but that was years ago with us. The moms in the troop love I'm trying to get their sons to do more for themselves. One even commented to me that she was really excited when her son came home from a campout and said that I told him he needed to learn how to do his own laundry (she wished I could talk to her other kids as well).

Wow. I didn't realize I'd get this much response this quickly. I'm glad to see that the BSA has a policy on smoking at events. Should we get more parents coming in that smoke at events and aren't discrete about it, I can at least point out the policy so it isn't such a me vs. you issue. Fortunately, the adults that smoke in our troop don't camp with us as much anymore, so we don't have the issue at the campouts as much. Also, they usually don't smoke alone. They will do it in groups. The subject came up because we had a new Scout crossover last year with a dad (very nice guy) that smoked. At a campout, the dad started smoking pretty close to the Scouts (about 40 foot away but in full view). Within five minutes, two other adults (both of whom had been with the troop for several years) who had not been smoking before were over talking to him with a cigarette lit. I didn't say anything at the time as I felt I would have caused a scene that we didn't need. That adults son quit a couple of months later (unfortunately, as he was a nice kid) and we haven't had the situation come up again. However, I don't know how to address it should that happen when we get new Scouts.

I don't like to discriminate against smokers because most of them are nice people who would quit if they "could". However, I have a very hard time when people have the attitude of "do as I say, not as I do".

I'm sure just about anyone has dealt with this one, but I'd like some advice on how to deal with it. Personally, I can't stand it when adults at Scout events smoke in front of the Scouts. Although I know there is no BSA policy on it, my feeling is that any behavior you wouldn't want your Scouts to partake in shouldn't be done by the adults. About five years ago, about two-thirds of the adults (parents and non-parent volunteers) smoked. There were times when there would be 5-6 adults watching a troop activity with cigarettes hanging out of their mouthes right in front of the Scouts. When I brought up the issue of asking adults not to smoke at troop events, I almost had my head taken off, even though every single one of those adults said they wouldn't want the Scouts to smoke. I even had one Webelos leader tell me that the reason they didn't come to our troop was because of all the adults smoking at the meeting they attended.

Fortunately, even though the committee took no official action, most of the adults either stopped smoking at troop events (at least meetings) or were very discrete about it, making sure they were not in sight of the Scouts.

My troop is at the point where we only have three adults left that smoke (all three of whom will probably be gone in the next couple of years because their sons are older). None of the Scouts that has joined in the past two years has a parent that smokes.

I have two questions. First, how have other troops handled this issue? Also, if we get a large group crossing over in the spring from Webelos, more than likely there will be one or more parents that smoke. How do I work to create an environment where adults know that smoking is not appreciated (especially in front of the kids) without totally alienating them (thus causing them to not participate or worse, withdraw their son from the troop)?

I don't think smokers are bad people, but I don't think the Scouts are a place where smoking should be taking place. Anyone should be able to not smoke for 1.5 hours a week (our troop meetings) and should be able to restrain themselves some on campouts. About ten years ago, we had an adult who used a weeklong backpacking trip to successfully start quitting smoking (he said he was too tired at night to get cravings). I wish more adults would do the same thing.

What I've noticed with female Scouters (active, camping ones, not just committee members) is that, like any other male dominated "profession", they are incredibly competent and dedicated. If I had to choose between the top five female Scouters I know versus the top five male Scouters I know, I would have a very hard time choosing because of the quality (although a big lack of quantity) of women in Scouting. In fact, the woman who runs our JLTC is arguably the most together Scouter I've ever encountered.

I don't think anyone has (or should have a problem) with the ceremonial parts of the military in Scouting. I think they add a tremendous amount of class to the movement. As I mentioned before, the concerns people have with linking the Scouts with paramilitary (and wearing camo) has more to do with safety. Our problem a few years back was the kids wearing the camo ended up taking the camp games and making them into war games where kids were getting hurt (and I'm not talking about falling down while running through the woods) and fights breaking out because of the overagressiveness. Now that the wear of camo has dropped dramatically (it hasn't been banned), those problems ceased to exist.

This topic has gone a little bit off tangent, but it is still very important and very relevant to the Scouting movement today. My challenge Scout should finish up his second class by next week (he has one "study" requirement left to do). Right now, I plan to sit down with him and his dad (his mom is very active with a younger brother in Cubs and not around much) and have a sheet written with specific things I expect of him in regards to his growth as a person and a leader. I'll include things such as making sure he remembers his book, neckerchief, etc. after troop meetings (no one is perfect, but every week is ridiculous), doing what the youth leaders tell him (if he doesn't like something, he at best questions "why?", knowing that he is being a pest), not wandering off during troop meetings, etc. He also needs to realize that he needs to be more of a team player and not so self-centered. A couple of weeks back, the Scouts were finishing off their knots and lashings for their Tenderfoot and First Class. They obviously started with the Tenderfoot knots (our two older Scouts were teaching and testing), with the Scouts who already had Tenderfoot helping the ones who didn't. Our challenge Scout, within 30 seconds of the activity starting, was off playing with the toys in the corner. When I asked him why he wasn't with the group, he said because he already had that signed off in his book. He doesn't see why he has to practice things (he doesn't try to remember or practice things he isn't naturally inclined to once he has them signed off) or take part in a troop activity in which he already has completed the requirements. When I've mentioned to him about learning the skills well enough so he can teach them to the other Scouts, he asks "Why would I want to do that?" Obviously, that is not a very Scout-like attitude. How can I impress upon him the importance of working as a team and how it is to the benefit of everyone for him to "help other people at all times"? Our older Scouts (both on the brink of getting their Eagles) are very good with helping the younger Scouts, so he has an example to follow there.

The last couple of posts have been very interesting. The topic of ADD is one that will probably go on for years. I actually know a few adults that have been diagnosed with it in the 40's and 50's. One woman was diagnosed at age 50 and for years had thought she was a "flake" and not intelligent. She never accomplished much because she had a hard time with concentrating and felt that anything that took a lot of focus was "beyond her". Finally, she met someone who suggested she be tested. After she was diagnosed, her doctor told her that she had two choices. The first was that she could go on living her life like she always had (she didn't have a bad life, but had never done anything to distinguish herself) or she could learn to compensate for her condition and move on. She chose the latter, using techiniques someone taught her to build her concentration and keep on task. Unfortunately, I lost contact with her about five years ago, but at the time, she was about half way through getting her college degree (she had previously gotten her GED) and was more excited about life than ever before. She told me that no one would have blamed her if she hadn't moved on. However, she figured she could either use her condition as an excuse and not do anything with her life or she could work to compensate for her condition and do something great.

My feeling is that at some point, people with that condition, if they want to do something with their lives, have got to find a way to work around it, just as so many people who are in a wheelchair or have a learning disability have learned to compensate and overcome any challenges they come across.

I think that part of our jobs as adult leaders is to help those Scouts with special needs overcome them. Just how to do it is the big question.

At our last troop meeting, in an ongoing attempt to shift responsibility over from the parents to the Scouts, I wrote the information about our hike this Saturday on a white board. I told the parents to stay away and had the Scouts (whom I have been telling for weeks now to make sure they bring pencil and paper to each meeting) write down the information themselves and give it to their parents. It worked out well (the Scouts are very capable when expected to be).

However, the dad of our challenged Scout said "He'll never be able to get the right information" and went and wrote it down himself. I kindly suggested to him that he may want to have his son write the information down with him standing there (to make sure it got done) but not do it for him. The dad then said it wasn't worth the effort. My thought was that if this kid, who is 12 1/2, in seventh grade, and part of the gifted (as well as learning disabled) program at school can't be expected to sit down and write out a few lines of information for an activity in which he wants to participate, then when will he ever be expected to take on any responsibility for himself, let alone for the troop.

I won't give up the Scout at all, but the expectation levels of some of these parents are incredibly low. As I look back, I feel very fortunate to have had the parents and Scout leaders I did. The excuse of "they're too young" didn't apply to us growing up. When I joined the Scouts and returned home from my first campout, my mom showed me right to the washing machine and taught me how to use it correctly. From that point on, it was my responsibility to get my own clothes clean. When I expressed dissatisfaction with the wrinkles in my uniform, my mom showed me how to iron. My Scout leaders were the same way. They taught our troop (all 11 and 12 years old) how to cook, clean, and operate a camp. After the first couple of months teaching us, they sat back and let us do it. Their expectation levels for us were very high and we responded accordingly.

I think the big question is this: at what point in their lives is it appropriate for the Scouts to say "I am responsible for who I am"?

I'd like to get some ideas from people as to what they think the ideal troop would look like. I'm talking about things like program activities (campouts, service projects, etc.), number of Scouts, set of both youth and adult leaership, etc. Feel free to dream and got Norman Rockwell-esque for this thread.

I had to laugh when I saw this topic. We dealt with this about six or seven years ago. I don't have a problem with the Scouts wearing camo on campouts for activities just as I wouldn't have a problem with them wearing sweats (basically, for the comfort and warmth). The problem our district ran into involved the Scouts wearing camo during nighttime (Capture the Flag) games. At first, the Scouts would just wear the pant and maybe a jacket made of camo. As time went on, they added a large variety of accessories (including face paint, radios, and netting) and it got to the point where they Scout camporees looked like an Army Reserve bivouac. The Scouts were bringing twice as much stuff for the nighttime as they were for the rest of the campout. In addition, the more "dressed up" they got, the more aggressive they got in the games. Needless to say, Scouts were getting hurt (more than normal) because of the overemphasis on the game. When people get concerned about the para-military aspect of the Scouts, this is what they are scared of. Scouts "preparing" for war and getting overly aggressive and hurt.

Fortunately, the fad passed and there are actually not too many Scouts that wear camo on campouts anymore.

I think some of the aspects of the military are very helpful for Scouting. I tend to think that the rank system and patrol method adapted from the military helps develop Scouts very effectively. Also, something almost everyone (no matter what their political beliefs) is impressed by is the beautiful ceremonies and sharp uniformed appearance of the armed forces. We, as a nation, take a tremendous amount of pride when we see a military parade or flag ceremony and I don't know anyone who isn't in awe when they see a military funeral. Those are the aspects of the military I would like to keep in Scouting.

I won't ever ban games like capture the flag (they are fun and just need to be kept in proper perspective). However, our job is to promote peace and brotherhood with others, not teach our Scouts how to prepare for war (they can do that when they turn 18 and want to join the military).

Having extrinsic (outside) rewards is one good way to build patrol spirit. People have a natural tendacy to develop an "us vs. them" mentality. As my troop has only eight active Scouts (and thus one patrol), we don't have the element of competition to drive them (although I'm hoping that comes in the future). However, our kids are becoming very tight night simply by spending time together and accomplishing things together. Through the hikes, campfires, swims, and dishes, they are becoming a unit.

How much time does your patrol spend alone (without the other patrols around) bonding and working on things together? At JLTC, one of the things we used to do was have patrols where no one knew each other when the participants arrived on Sunday. Obviously, things were very awkward at first. Over the next few days, they slowly started to get to know each other and become more of a unit. On Wednesday night, the patrols go off to the back part of the property to stay overnight by themselves. When they returned Thursday morning, you could notice the difference in how close they were.

Coffee Lady-

It sounds like you are doing things correctly. I am in something of a similar situation with my troop right now. Keep in mind you won't see big changes for a while (it will take 2-3 years to really get things rolling). Also, as far as the kids not wanting to take responsibility: your three ADD kids may be used to always having adults do everything for them and wonder why they should have to do anything for themselves (I've seen it before as well as with a Scout currently in my troop).

Something else you may need to do is something a lot of people won't look real kindly on. Even though you have worked with these kids for a while, they may not be a group around which you can build a troop. You may have to still work with these kids, but your "core" group of Scouts with whom you will develop the troop (if that is really your goal) may be off in the future. The Scouts we welcomed from 97-99 were from a certain pack and ended up not being the highest quality kids. We had a blowup in summer 99 which resulted in all of them leaving the troop (there were seven left by that point). Looking back now, there was no way we could have built the troop around those kids. They didn't attract other kids and we would have had a very tough time developing them as leaders. The next spring, we got kids from a different pack and they are developing very well. I'm not saying that you should get rid of your current kids, but you may have to find other Scouts around whom to build the troop. The current Scouts can still go along for the ride.