Chippewa29

I think the question in regards to long hair, earrings (another thread), etc. is the character of the Scout. My opinion is that if the Scout with long hair, earrings, etc. is of good character and a good example to other Scouts, then it shouldn't be a problem. I think where a lot of the controversey comes from is that although there are a lot of guys that have long hair that are very high quality people, the general perception (and one that is not necessarily unfairly earned) is that men with long hair and earrings tend to take part in a lot of "unscoutlike" activities such as drinking, smoking, multiple sex partners, etc.

There were a couple of guys I was in OA with in the late 80's that wore long hair and earrings and were active members of the OA (they performed on the ceremonies team) because their friends were also very active. There were times when myself and some of the other guys would go to the ceremony ring at a conclave and they'd be smoking while practicing for a ceremony (they were under 18). These guys also bragged about how drunk they'd get and how many girls they scored with on the weekends when they weren't at Scout events. As I've stated in previous posts, younger kids with long hair, "rattails", and earrings have been a problem 90% of the time. The older ones can separate the look and the attitude better, but generally speaking, the higher quality kids have kept a "cleaner" look about them over the years.

On the other hand, in the mid-90's, one of the big hair styles was growing your hair really long on top, then wearing it in a long pony tail with the sides and back of their head shaved. Our lodge chief at the time wore his hair like that and grew it down to the middle of his back. He was a young man of great character who not only was heavily involved in Scouts, but also a lot of school activities, including S.A.D.D. His solution when he needed to look more "official" was to put his hair up under a hat (it looked like he had a buzz cut when he did that) and he let his hair down when things were more informal and he didn't have to worry about being as much of a "symbol". He cut his hair off around the time he turned 21 and tooks bids for who got to shave it off (the money went toward camp scholarships) because he said it was time for him to grow up and he was tired of the time it took to take care of his hair.

Also, a couple of Scouts in my troop did the same thing. They were good kids (not angels) who stayed out of trouble. One eventually got his Eagle (he had cut his hair by then because he was tired of it) and joined the Army. We never had a problem with these guys, but it didn't hurt that both of their dads were very active in the troop.

As an SM, if I were to face the scenario of a Scout that has long hair, I wouldn't look at it as the long hair, but rather his character. If he is someone who played the sterotypical role of a "long hair", then there would be some Scout Spirit issues that would come up before I would recommend him for a board of review. However, if he just had long hair (or an earring) and he was other fulfilling the principles and ideals of Scouting, I would have no problem moving him on.

As was said before, the best way for a leader to get correct uniforming is by wearing the correct uniform themselves. The previous SM of our troop wore a full uniform for the first few years he was SM and encouraged but didn't require it of the kids. Our uniforming during those days was ok, but not great. A couple of years back, the SM gained a chunk of weight so he only wore the shirt and changed his tune quite a bit. Consequently, the kids went to wearing just their shirts (not tucking them in or barely buttoning them, etc.) I've always worn a full uniform (short of a hat, which I always have with me but don't like to wear) and expect the same from the kids in the troop. Now, all of the kids wear their shirts correctly, their troop neckerchiefs, belts, and about half wear the correct pants. There have been several threads discussing this. As I've said before, in my troop over the years, plus watching different units (as an OA unit elections official), the best troops I've seen were always the ones that were the best uniformed.

There is a very fine line that people walk when they act as a MB counselor for their own child. The standards of the MB need to be held very high in those instances and if other counselors are available for that MB, I believe the Scout should work on it with that other counselor. That doesn't mean the home schooled Scout can't work with their parent on it, but they should be reviewed by another adult. However, if the parent is the only counselor in the area for a particular MB or a group of Scouts from the troop are working on it together, then I don't see a problem.

A Scout in my troop has been passed for a couple of MB by his mom. However, he worked on those badges with at least one other Scout in the troop each time.

The case you don't want to see is what happened in my troop about 10-11 years ago. We had a Scout join whose Dad was a "lifer" that was a counselor for 5-6 badges (he had even worked with me on a badge when I was a youth). Within a year or so after joining, the son had every badge his dad counseled, with his dad signing off all but one (which he did a summer camp). About that time, renewal for MB counselors came up. Dad switched to six other MB's and Mom signed up for another six MB's. The son had all twelve of those MB's within a few months, all signed off by his parents, who then bragged about how hard their son worked and how he was going to get his Eagle by his 14th birthday. The Dad eventually PO'd enough people to be forced to resign from the troop (he had become SM about six months before). The son got his Eagle, but the district questioned the number of badges signed off by his parents and the Scout (nor his parents) had no credibility.

Before this turns into a big debate on the merits of paintball and lazertag, please start a new thread. I'd like to get ideas on how to get new Scouts crossing over "hooked" on the troop and keep from losing them to summer and baseball/soccer season.

Bob White-

You are absolutely correct about using teachers. My principal in sixth grade acted as my counselor for both the Scholarship and Citizenship in the Community MB. While in eighth grade, we signed up my band director as a MB counselor so she could work with me on my Music MB. I guess she ended up working with several other scouts over the next few years and really enjoyed it.

Good News! I just got word that my troop is having 6-7 new Scouts cross over on March 3. The best part is that they chose us over the "glamour" troop in our area (the first time we've ever won a head to head recruiting battle with them). I'm excited because the kids and parents seem to be very high quality and are really excited to join. My troop is going to use a climbing wall at a local camping store for our meeting next Monday, so a couple of them are getting their first activity before they actually cross over.

Now, to my real question. What sort of things would be good to do with them the first month or so they are in the troop to keep from losing any right off the bat? They cross over on March 3. We have a COH on March 11, so we will probably be planning for that on March 4 (the new Scouts will probably be having their first SM conferences since they have all earned their AOL and can get the Boy Scout rank at the first COH). However, for the rest of March, I want to lock them in before baseball and soccer start up in April.

Any suggestions?

In case anyone was interested, there is a series of articles this week in the Detroit Free Press (www.freep.com) regarding home schooling in Michigan. I thought the people reading and discussing this thread would find it interesting.

Thanks for the quick response. I've been whether it would be better for him to have to make himself do it or if he would just get discouraged and give up. I'm going to talk to his dad (a very high quality guy that understands about building character) and see what he thinks. I think that if this kid can work at it for a couple more weeks and do it(plausible, but not likely), then I'd make him wait. But if it would take him months to get strong enough to do a single pull up, thus holding up his advancement, I think it would be better for him to get his Tenderfoot now.

Another note on this subject. The Scout we passed did his 1/4 mile run/walk in 8:00 the first time, 7:55 the second, basically walking the whole thing. Although I know this Scout didn't intentionally "dog it" (his attitude is very good pretty much all the time), I know that he could have pushed himself a lot more during the test. He wasn't even breathing hard when he got done. Obviously, he didn't do his best, but he did improve.

These are the gray areas that drive me nuts. Since I only see the kids once a week (usually), there is only so much I can do. Also, I am someone that works out 5-6 days a week and very much takes the part "to keep myself physically strong" seriously. When I see kids out of shape when because they spend too much time on the TV/computer instead of playing outside, it makes me want to cry.

I've got a dilemma right now in regards to the physical fitness requirements for Tenderfoot. I've got a Scout in my troop that has completed all his requirements for Tenderfoot except for showing improvement in the Physical Fitness Tests after a 30 day period. Last week, I tested the Scout for improvement (about four months after his orginal tests) and he improved on every area but one. Like the first test, he couldn't do a single pull up. This kid is not physically handicapped, but he is not an athlete by any stretch of the imagination. I know that he actually did work out some in preparation for this (not every day, but more than most kids) and his determination during the tests was excellent.

The big question is this. Do I hold him back from his Tenderfoot because he can't do a pull up? I think once this kids grows some and gains some body maturity (next 1-2 years), he will be able to do it. At this point, I think it would take him a couple of months of diligently working out (something most kids would do) to do a single pull up. He is about three requirements away from Second Class as well and had completed about half the requirements for his First Class.

I know that the tough tests help develop character and I think it would be great for him to do it, but I'm wondering if I could be discouraging him by not letting him move on. His dad has said that he is ok with me holding him back as long as I hold the same standard to every kid.

Which brings up my second point. We had another Scout pass his BOR for Tenderfoot tonight. When I passed him on his physical fitness requirements a few weeks back, he improved on everything but his pull ups. He did one each time and somehow I let it pass without noticing it. His physical tests were also inferior to the first Scout on everything but the pull ups. I don't think this Scout worked on his fitness much during his 30 days (at least not as much as the first scout did).

I unfortunately held two Scouts to two different standards. How do I handle this? Also, what if I have another kid in the future that just can't do a pull up? The Scout in question is a great kid that definitely deserves his Tenderfoot and passed almost all of his requirements with flying colors instead of just getting by. Any suggestions?

It is very true about the parents being at fault for this lack of integrity. Many parents don't realize just what they are teaching their kids by telling even small lies. I heard a story once about a man who took his two sons, ages 7 and 5, to the movies. When they got there, the price was $5 for adults, $4 for age seven and up, and $2 for kids six and under. When the ticket seller asked them for tickets, the dad said, "I need one adult, one $2 ticket, but the older ones 7, so we'll need to get a $4 ticket for him." The ticket seller looked surprised and said the the dad, "You could have told me the older one was six and saved two dollars. I wouldn't have known the difference." The dad looked down at his sons and then said to the ticket teller, "I know, but they would have."

Many people don't realize that their lies, even small little ones that don't really hurt someone, play a big role in determining who are children become.

I've worn my troops neckerchief from day one in the troop (in fact, my neckerchief is the only uniform part I have grown out of, lost, traded, burned a hole in, etc.) I think the neckerchief is the one piece of the uniform that both separates the troop and unifies it as one. When at troop functions, I believe it is important for the adults to be wearing the same neckerchief as the Scouts. A couple of years ago, our former SM suggested that I wear my Eagle neckerchief so I could show the kids I got my Eagle (he wore his Wood Badge one when he wore a neckerchief). I told him that when at troop events, I'm not there to promote myself, but to promote the troop. He agreed with me and even switched to the troop neckerchief.

I must say it is quite impressive to see an entire troop correctly wearing the same troop neckerchief.

Weekender-

I consult with small businesses and non-profit groups on developing web pages to help them avoid the pitfalls most groups fall into. Get me your email address and I'll be more than happy to get you the information I usually give clients (you get it for free, of course).

I definitely agree with eisley. One of the reasons most of us are involved in Scouting is because it is fun. When I talk to old friends about our days in Scouts, we don't talk about the serious times. We usually bring up some goofy thing we did and have a good laugh over the story. In fact, every time I run into a certain troop alumnus (now in his mid-20's), he always asks if he still holds the troop record for flipping a canoe the most times in a day (it is 36 in six hours).

As a public school track coach (though not a teacher), I am a little biased toward the public schools, especially when someone's daughter can run a really fast 400. However, as someone mentioned before, it really depends our your situation with many variables.

The thing that I see the most problematic with parents that send their kids to private schools (home schooling is a very new concept in our area, so I haven't dealt with it much) is that they think if their child just goes to a certain prestigious private school (or just private school period), then their child will never get in trouble and will have everything they need to succeed in the world.

Near the public high school where I went (and now coach), there is a very "prestigious" Catholic school (all boys) that promotes the high character of its students and the pure lives they lead while there. The year I graduated from high school, this school had over 30 of its 80 graduates go through alcohol or drug rehab or get arrested on some alcohol or drug charge during their senior year of high school or freshman year of college. I guy I went to college with was one of them that went to rehab as a high school senior, and he said there were even more that didn't get caught. It was a big case of denial of the parents and school officials.

Also, many parents believe that going to a private school will shelter their children from the problems of a real world. A friend of mine had problems dealing with people (she couldn't handle confrontations of any kind) in middle school. Her parents put her in an all girls Catholic school to protect her. Today, she is in her early 30's, still lives at home with her parents, and still cannot handle any kind of confrontation with anyone. I know of two other "women" that are in the same kind of situation of not being able to deal with the real world because their parents tried to use private school to shelter them.

On the other hand, a private school can be a very good thing for someone. I guy I went to middle school with was a troublemaker and constantly mocked how the schools couldn't really do anything to him. His parents responded by sending him to a private, quasi-military school. When I saw him two years later, the difference was incredible. They kicked his butt and didn't take any of his crap, and he straightened out 100% and ended up joing the Army after graduation. Staying in a public school, he probably would have been expelled eventually. I've also had other friends that went to private school, are doing very well in life, and loved going to a private school. It was a wonderful experience for them.

A friend I grew up with in Scouts went with us to public school until he was about third or fourth grade, when his parents thought he wasn't getting a good enough education and switched him to private school. He ended up going to a mediocre state school for college. When his brother (ten years younger) got into school, his parents let him go to public school because they realized that they wasted their money sending him to private school (he wasn't a troublemaker and was a solid student).

The school district in which you live can play a big part as well. The school where I coach is one of the top districts in the metro area and outperforms many of the private schools in the area. However, some old friends lived in a nice neighborhood that happened to be in one of the worst districts in the area. They sent all six of their kids to private schools and it was a very good decision for them.

A child's belief system is basically formed in the home. Usually, if I have a girl on my team that is a problem, meeting her parents for ten minutes gives me 90% of the clues as to how she got that way. Many parents are afraid that their children's beliefs will be switched if they send them to public schools and they are "exposed" to beliefs that are different then their own. The school I went to was in what we called "Rush Limbaugh country" back in the late 80's. We had a couple of teachers that were very liberal and didn't hide it. Myself, along with a lot of my classmates, although we didn't necessarily agree with these teachers (they didn't force their opinions on us, but we definitely knew what they were), greatly appreciated different perspectives on things.

I guess what that brings me to is the really purpose of education. It is not necessarily to teach children how to think, but to give them a foundation of basic values and expose them to different ideas and thoughts so they can learn to think for themselves. Some people don't think teenagers are able to think for themselves. At what point will they? It doesn't suddenly happen when they turn 18. I don't remember the exact line, but if you watch the movie Dead Poets Society, you'll see what I mean.

I've gone on long enough for this post. Maybe I'll post more later, but I'll be looking forward to seeing everyone elses thoughts.

Feathers-

Something you may need to do is to have someone as the Vice Chair for several months and make it a more gradual transition. One of the reasons they may be dragging their feet is because you have done such a good job and none of them wants to have the pressure of following you (do this make sense). If someone were to come on as Vice Chair and you gradually shift the responsibilities over a period of several months, they would probably realize that you don't have to be super human to be CC. In the future, and this is something I'm hoping to do with my troop in the future, is to have a backup for each key position so that there is a very orderly succession in the troop. That way, you have dug your well before you are thirsty.

In regards to the restrictions the pack places on their leaders: how do they keep people when they are being selfish like that? What are they going to do if someone registers on another committee? Kick them out?

Doh!!!!!!

OGE-

I was aware of that, but I was looking for ideas to spur on a little intertroop competition. We did Honor Patrol while I worked at JLTC in the early 90's and it created some great teamwork without hurting anyone. I've also seen them done by other troops over the years, with much success. I think it is a great idea for all patrols to earn the BSA Honor Patrol Award, but I think some competition would spur them on a little bit as long as it was kept under control.

With the new incoming Webelos, we are looking to be adding a second patrol by this spring (hooray!). I'm looking to set up an Honor Patrol System to help promote patrol excellence and some healthy competition between the patrols. I'd like to get some suggestions on how to develop a point system for this. We are planning on conducting it quarterly. Also, some suggestions for the rewards for the honor patrol would be nice as well (the kids in my troop always need some incentive, they haven't developed much of an ego yet).

Wow. This is an interesting situation. I'll add it to my list of things I hope I never have to deal with. My troop has had 12 Eagles over the years and we've held COH for 11 of us, each done separately (we all earned our awards at least several months apart). The one that didn't get a COH left the troop about two months after his BOR when his dad (the SM at the time) burned a few too many bridges with other adults in the troop (we were the second troop he had done that with the past three years). When we got word that his application had made it through national, the troop leaders (I was in college at the time) forwarded the paperwork to his family and we never heard from them again.

Basically, if this Scout earned his Eagle in the troop and left under fairly good circumstances (he wasn't kicked out), then the troop should make some effort to recognize him. You may not need to offer up a full-blown Eagle COH. Instead, you could just add it to a regular COH as the climax. We had one Eagle that didn't really want an Eagle Court and preferred to just get it presented at a regular COH. We were all fine with that, but his parents wanted a full-blown Eagle COH and that is what we gave him. He wasn't your ideal Eagle. He did the requirements, but had been a pain in his first couple of years and a neutral until he earned his Eagle at 16 1/2. His activity level was suspicious (he only came because his parents wanted him to get his Eagle) and we didn't see him for two months after his Eagle BOR (then it was only to start planning the COH). By the time we had his COH a year after his BOR, he had been to exactly two troop meetings (both to plan his COH) and a third of the kids in the troop didn't even know who he was. The whole ceremony only took 20 minutes (ours usually last 40-60 minutes).

Try speaking with the scout and his parent(s) separately to see what the situation really is. It may be that his parents want him to have the ceremony, but he doesn't. If that is the case, then you may be able to convince them that a full blown COH isn't the best way to go. A simple ceremony at a meeting or COH may work just as well.

A good example is my cousin-in-law. He earned his Eagle just before he turned 18. Through some weird circumstances, his paperwork never made it to national for completion (although he did the BOR and was approved by council). Also, his troop folded soon after his Eagle BOR. Therefore, he was never awarded his Eagle medal. A couple of years ago, someone told him that if they could reconstruct his records, he could get reprocess the paperwork and get his Eagle. They managed to do so, and he was presented his Eagle (at age 30) in front of his parents, wife, and kids in a 15 minute ceremony at a Council Exec Board Meeting. It ended up making the local paper. He was very happy with that presentation and it meant more to him than a full blown COH would have years before.

Eagle Courts don't have to be full blown affairs. They just have to present the best attributes of the Scout Oath and Law.

If I remember correctly, next Monday is President's Day, which mainly celebrates the birthdays of Abraham Lincoln and George Washington. Although Lincoln is best know for freeing the slaves and leading our nation through the Civil War and Washington is known as the Father of our Country, there is something else that impresses me the most about them.

Both men had the incredible character and vision to stand fast to the American principles they have come to represent. Both men had the opportunity to seize power and basically make themselves dictators of our country. Lincoln was strongly urged by his aides to cancel the presidential election in 1864. With the Civil War going on, he could have very well done so and not have faced much (if any) public outcry. However, he knew that he would be setting a terrible precedent and going against the very Constitutional principles by which he had sworn to defend when he was inaugarated. At least Lincoln had some kind of precedent by which to judge his actions.

Washington's vision was even more incredible. In 1783, he was urged to use his position as commander of the army and make himself the King of the United States. It would have been a very popular move. Up to that point, all history knew was leaders toppling other leaders and making themselves King, claiming they were ordained by God to do so. Instead, he left the Army to retire to Mount Vernon. By walking away from that power, he did more for the country than anyone seizing power could have. Also, in 1789, as the country was struggling to get going, he came out of retirement and reluctantly became the president. He didn't take the office for money or power or prestige. He took the office to serve others and make our country a better place.

Let us not forget the noble service these men gave to our country. For a time, I ask you to please put aside your political differences and remember how these men didn't lead for themselves, but for the service of their fellow man, no matter what their political beliefs or religion.

This isn't a major concern in my troop right now, but it is something I'd like to learn about before we have to face it. In our troop of eight Scouts, we have two older Scouts that grew up in the troop and are a pair of friends. We have a group of four kids that go to school together and live in the same neighborhood (they are best buddies). Of course, we have our challenge Scout. Finally, we have a Scout that joined the troop last year, but hasn't found his niche yet.

Fortunately, he has very supportive parents (his dad is usually at about 3/4 of the meetings and 1/2 the campouts). However, I feel like he is getting lost in the cracks at times. I've been trying to help the two older ones with their Eagle awards (they are both very close). The pack of four, by number and shear force of their personalities (I call them the Fab Four) garner a lot of attention but tend to push each other along. Of course, as I've mentioned before, our challenge Scout demands a large amount of my (and our older Scouts) time. What I'm scared of is that our other Scout, who gets along well with everyone but doesn't really fit in with any of the other Scouts in the troop, could get lost in the shuffle. I don't think we'll lose him, as he really seems to enjoy Scouts, but in the future, we may have a similar situation come up and the Scout may not have the support he needs from his parents. Do you have any suggestions on how we keep a Scout like that from slipping through the cracks?

Weekender-

Just find a copy of the BSA Handbook (9th Edition) with the Rockwell cover that was used from 1979-1990. There are millions of copies in print, so you should be able to find someone with a copy close to you.

This thread is an offshoot of the one about BOR and SMC. While I don't remember all of my Scout skills I learned while getting my ranks back in the 80's, I do remember quite a bit (I tend to learn slow, but remember long). How do you help reinforce the basic skills over a period of time so that the Scouts can actually use them when the need arises?

My thought is that it should be part of the pre-meeting activity, such as having a rope bucket so the Scouts can tie a knot, etc. Speaking of which, how many of you actually conduct pre-meeting activities and how do they work?

Any other thoughts on this?

It depends if you mean earning it or receiving it. The Eagle and palms can't be earned at the same time because of the three month requirement. However, if the Eagle COH is several months after the BOR, then they can present a palm with the Eagle award. For example, my friend didn't have his COH until 8 or 9 months after his BOR. During that time, he met the requirements for two palms and they were presented at his Eagle COH.

Weekender-

I both envy and don't envy you. The reason I do envy you is that you would obviously be stepping into a good situation of a stable troop with good resources and a strong tradition. On the other, hand, it will not be your troop for several years at least, especially if the current SM sticks around to help out. The best thing you can do for yourself is be yourself. If you try to be the current SM, you will fail miserably. However, as yourself, you may actually end up a better leader (in your own way) than the current SM and have as much influence with the Scouts during your tenure (however long it is) as the previous SM had during his tenure.