Chippewa29

The challenge Scout in our troop was taken off his ADHD meds last summer (they weren't working and stunted his appetite and thus, growth). Now he has to take some natural vitamin supplements several times a day. While they don't help the ADHD, his appetite has increased quite a bit in recent months and he has started to grow (almost 13 and he is still the smallest kid in troop, including the brand new 11 year olds). His parents send the supplements with him on the campouts and he knows how to take them himself, but the adults have to remind him or else he won't remember (or simply won't) take them after each meal. However, when it is his turn to dishes, he seems to remember and takes about 20 minutes in an effort to get out of as many dishes as he can (just like any normal kid). That is the next step in his progress.

Wow. I've inspired a thread (sort of). In response to the question, there are two reasons why we've had an ASM teaching Totin' Chit. First, my predecessor as SM didn't think Scouts could handle too much and our troop ended up being very much adult run. Also, we currently have no Scouts qualified to teach it. Down the road, one of my goals is for the Scouts in the troop to teach all of the skills needed for at least through first class. Eventually, the only times adults will be teaching is if it is for a merit badge in their specialty that a Scout wouldn't have.

I'm not sure exactly why (although I'm sure money has something to do with it), but the trend seems to be for councils to consolidate and get bigger and less local. Two councils to the west of mine merged a few years back in what was a merger of two equal councils. My council, Clinton Valley, was the subject of two separate merger proposals in the late 80's, early 90's. The first one was a proposal to merge with the Detroit Area Council. The result would have been the second largest council in the country with over 70,000 members. Detroit actually approved the merger, but Clinton Valley rejected it because DAC was a big mess at the time with a lot of infighting between different districts and other problems. CVC didn't want to be dragged into it (especially since we had recently become very stable financially). A few years later, the Blue Water Council in Port Huron (which borders us to the Northeast and had just over 1000 members) was supposed to merge with us. However, the people at Blue Water were afraid of losing their identity (their council would have become one of CVC's districts and their OA lodge a chapter of Chippewa Lodge) and rejected the idea (I can't say I blame them) and have somehow manged to survive financially since then. However, there are always new rumors about which councils will be merging together.

Are the special arrangements due to medical or religious purposes? If they are, then you'd think the camp would be more accomodating for him. Please give more details, it would probably help.

In our area, my council encompasses most of two counties, except for strip of towns on the Southern edge of those two counties (Oakland and Macomb), which belong to the Detroit Area Council. Also, Bloomfield Hills (the richest suburb in Detroit) is part of the Detroit Area Council even though it border Pontiac, where our council is based (the council office is ten minutes from the border). I know that Detroit was first council in our area. When the councils in the suburbs popped up in the late 1920's, Detroit managed to keep that strip of communities, most of which were the more affluent suburbs of that time and a couple of which still are. Also, most of the Detroit Auto execs live in Bloomfield Hills or Birmingham (which is another ritzy suburb in Oakland County), so when they are involved with Scouts, it is with the Detroit Area Council and tend to send their big donations to that council. Therefore, the reason why the Detroit Area Council keeps those cities is because they provide a large amount of the donations provided to the council. Yes, money does play a part in the formation of councils.

Our districts are done geographically by school districts. The only way troops in the same community would be in different Scout districts is if they are in different school districts. The school district I grew up in drew from eight different communities. In four of those communities, people that live in a different part of the community go to different school systems and in a couple of cases, are in different Scout districts.

Thanks, these are exactly what I was looking for.

Shemgren-

My guess is that you are trying to do things differently than the previous SM, who probably ran things on the fly, didn't really use the patrol method, and didn't emphasize uniforming or have a system for the kids to learn. If so, that is the exact same thing I am going through with my troop.

My suggestion is to just focus on the younger Scouts. You will be fighting a losing battle to try to get those older Scouts to change so much when most of their Scouting careers, things were done differently (especially if they thought things were fine before). My troop has two older Scouts that grew up in the "loosey goosey" environment of our previous SM. Since I took over last year, they have adapted some, but still don't see the need of having a duty roster on campouts or a written plan for meetings. Our oldest Scout turns 18 this week (just finished his Eagle), so he is pretty much gone. The other one works well with the younger kids and is definitely a plus, but as soon as one of the younger kids (now 13) is ready, I'll encourage him to "retire" as PL and work more in a consultant role such as Troop Guide or JASM (it won't be hard to do). The kids we've had cross over the past two years have seen more of a system (we are developing it around them) and are willing have more structure for their Scouting. That will be the standard over the next few years. Once our current PL turns 18 or turns his attention to his Venture Crew (he talks about just doing the Venture Crew after he gets his Eagle, no matter what his age), then all of our Scouts will have been brought up under a system and used to wearing correct uniforms, using meeting plans and duty rosters, etc.

Don't give up on the older Scouts, but you may need to run two separate programs for a while to make sure the younger Scouts are doing things the right way. It is a battle you may not wish to fight with the older Scouts. Let them do their thing and age out in due time (no need to burn bridges), but the future of your troop is with the younger Scouts. Focus on building around them.

As far as the patrol name goes, my troop had a similar problem for years. The kids would pick (at best) some really goofy patrol name and not take it seriously. Of course, when we went to events, they were ashamed to be publicly acknowledged by that name. After a year or so, they'd pick a new name and start the process all over again. Now, I just give the kids a picture of all the patrol patches and tell them to pick from there. They have over forty choices, so its not like they have no options. They can come up with some pretty good stuff. Also, we know they will have a patch and can take pride in the name.

I've just realized that we have no one currently active in my troop that knows how to properly teach the Totin' Chit. We had an ASM that left last spring that had been the main one teaching it for almost a decade. I just had someone ask me about it and realized I've never taught it (although I've taught how to sharpen, etc.) Does anyone have a sylabus that describes what needs to be taught for that?

In my troop, we have a PL (only one patrol right now), troop guide, scribe, librarian, historian, and QM. The only who doesn't do much is the librarian (that will change once we get more kids working on MB). We don't have an APL because the position would be honorary, as the PL is able to handle the duties of his job for the most part. I'll definitely agree with the idea that the Scouts should get positions when they are ready for them. I'm currently in that debate with the dad of our challenge Scout. The kid (almost 13) isn't responsible enough to remember his book and hat at the end of the meeting or write down the annoucements for himself at troop meetings. Therefore, I don't think he should get a position until he learns the responsibility for himself. However, his dad thinks that the only way to learn responsibility is to be given it (he wants me to give his son a position).

Weekender-

I believe when you made the comment about liking the idea of the ASPL inspecting the patrol sites, you were referring to my comment earlier in the thread. I was the ASPL for my Jamboree troop in 1989 and our JLTC course in 1990 (under the same SPL both times). We were a great team (today, he is still one of my best friends). As he had a myriad of responsibilities, I was responsible for making sure the staff was doing their jobs and for being the "butt-kicker" when needed. The ASPL is very often just an honorary position with no responsibilities other than to fill in if the SPL is absent. If the ASPL handles a lot of the "dirty work", then the SPL can focus on running the program rather than trying to put out the various fires that come up from time to time.

I was very fortunate to be elected to the OA when I was only 12 1/2. A month after my ordeal, we had an election and I became the chapter secretary-treasurer by default. The chapter chief had been one of my counselors at summer camp the summer before (very fun guy) and took me under his wing. At the first OA Executive Board meeting I went to, the Lodge Chief made a point to come up to me after the meeting to introduce himself and tell me how glad he was I was working with them (I was obviously floored by this). The guy who became Lodge Chief next was also a very fun guy. Something that we always knew with them (as well as most of the guys I knew from the OA) was that although we played hard and had a great time (such as wearing togas with our sashes to the arena shows at NOAC), we worked hard and our first purpose was to serve others. There was never any question as to who they were serving (it was never them or their friends).

Those guys helped me realize that the greatest reward in life was the satisfation of knowing that you have helped other people succeed. That knowledge was more important than any medal or other award you can receive. It has helped form the basis of what I do with my life.

I stay in Scouting because I hope to impart some of that wisdom with today's youth and inspire them to spend their lives serving others as well. Besides, where else would I get the opportunity to spend weekends out camping without the herds of weekend warriors and go exploring through the woods for an afternoon.

When I was in Australia for the World Jamboree, we were of course required to wear our uniforms out in public. Of course, a lot of the guys moaned about it. After a day or so, the guys couldn't get their uniforms looking sharp enough. We had Australian girls (good looking ones our age) coming up to talk to us because we had our uniforms on. They thought we looked sharp and a lot of the guys ended up hanging out with the girls for quite a while during our free time (the adults gave the ok providing we were in groups and kept the doors of our rooms open while they were there).

Also, for some reason, the Australian girls who were at the Jamboree loved our green and red knee socks and asked us if they could have a pair everytime we did our wash. The adults thought it was hilarious, but made sure we each kept one pair for the trip home.

We also got some pretty good response in DC while visiting for the 89 National Jamboree.

As far as keeping all the books in the troop library, I don't feel that is necessary. Of course, keep current copies of all the Eagle required and other popular merit badges. If a Scout wants to work on, say, Architecture (My troop has never had a Scout get that one in 19 years), the troop can then purchase the book or the Scout can purchase the book and donate it to the troop when he is done (it won't kill him to wait for a week or two to get the book). As time goes on, the troop library will grow.

The palms are worn on the ribbon of the Eagle medal. Yes, it is appropriate to wear both the medal and the patch at the same time. The medal (in my opinion) should be saved for more formal occasions, such as Courts of Honor, Ceremonies, etc. Recently, I was showing some new Scouts in my troop my Eagle medal (I let them hold it once when they first join, then tell them they have to earn their own before they get to hold another one). One of the dads was amazed at how it looks brand new. That is probably because I only wear it once or twice a year and keep it in its box until I get to the special event (in other words, I don't wear it around at all).

Once your son turns 18, he'll need to switch his Eagle patch to an Eagle square knot. He can still wear the medal if he wishes.

It is actually a fairly common occurance, especially in small troops. Often, kids need to "double up" on positions in order for everything to get done. I've very rarely seen someone that is a bugler (very specialized position) not have another position. I think the problem comes when there are qualified Scouts that don't have a position while other Scouts have two positions. For example, one Scout is a patrol leader and troop librarian, while another qualified Scout has no position.

Something I used at JLTC when I worked on staff there was the paper towel test. I'd take a paper towel wipe it through the pots during inspection. If grease came off on the towel, I'd ask the patrol members "Do you want to eat this?" Of course, they would wrinkle their noses (except for maybe one smart aleck). I would then respond, "If you don't get these dishes clean, you will be eating it. That usually got the point across, although the kids I was dealing with were of higher caliber than most Scouts. By the way, by the end of JLTC, every single one of the patrol was passing the paper towel test 100% (I pinned the clean towels to their bulletin boards as "trophies").

As far as a Scout not getting up, they miss breakfast and possibly activities. Also, the ones that go to bed early we are easier on. However, the ones that were up late goofing off we make get up and they end up dragging through most of Saturday before bunking down early on Saturday night. Ed's comment about going to bed earlier is great. That way, the kids that need 9 or so hours of sleep can get it.

However, I am a strong believer that people in general need to learn how to follow a schedule and can't always do everything "as they feel like". Of course, with babies and little kids, they need to sleep until they wake up. However, as they get older the kids need to learn how to push themselves through a day on less sleep than they are used to and follow a schedule they may not exactly fit their sleeping patterns. The parents of the challenge Scout in my troop (who is a night owl and needs 9-10 hours sleep a night) will sometimes let him sleep in and take him into school late if he "isn't ready" to get up in the morning. Or, he has no problem sleeping in class (his parents have said his teachers have contacted them about that several times) if he is "forced" to get up and go to school on time when he didn't get 9-10 hours of sleep. At what point in someone's life is having the world schedule themselves around you no longer appropriate? Yes, you do need to be flexible, but we can't revolve things around one kid. Other times, the kid needs to learn how to "gut it up" and take responsibility to stay awake in class or get to school on time even if they didn't get as much sleep as they wanted. There were times we didn't get much sleep with Scouts because we were out screwing around (after the adults went to bed), but we paid for it the next day and were extra tired as we fulfilled our responsibilities. However, we knew that if we played extra, then we needed to pay for it. It was a price we gladly paid at times.

By the way, in the past, we've dumped water on kids who didn't get up (basically 15, 16 year olds who stayed up half the night and whose parents thought we were being too nice) and it worked most of the time.

please describe, as I don't know what you are talking about.

The good part about being smaller is that you have more flexibility. Half of our troop (five Scouts), including all of our troop position holders, is involved in a music festival this weekend, when we were supposed to have a campout. When we realized what we were up against, we changed from a campout to a day hike. We have five kids going, all younger Scouts (including three brand new). They'll have a good time and get an outdoor experience.

When it comes to conflicts with other activities, we tend to major in it. We go up against soccer, hockey, baseball, music, Cathecism (sorry if I spelled it wrong), church groups, etc. I am always a nice guy about it (many of the sports coaches aren't), so I tend to develop loyalty from the Scouts and their parents because I am supportive of their other activities. If a kid has a hockey game on Saturday morning and we have a campout, then he usually comes about noon or so and stays Saturday night. When they have multiple conflicts, I just ask that they make equal sacrifices. For example, if there are six conflicts with hockey and troop activities during the season, I ask that they sacrifice hockey three times and the troop activity three times (it usually ends up being 1-5 or 2-4, but the tide is turning in our favor).

Another thing that helps is the advancement. Scouts that are at most of the meetings with us advance quicker than the ones that are "part-timers". When the part-timers see their buddies getting a new rank and they aren't they do one of two things: they get discouraged or they get motivated. If done properly, you can turn it into a win-win situation. We had a Scout that was a part-timer and wasn't happy when he wasn't advancing (his buddies were). He started to split his time better, sacrificing a couple of hockey practices to be at Scout meetings. I didn't tell him to do that. I only told him that the reason why his buddies were advancing was not because they were better than him, but because they were there more and had put more work into it. If he wanted the same rewards, he needed to put in the same work. If hockey was a higher priority for him, no problem, we'd love to have you join us whenever you can.

The guideline I use with my Scouts is that if the service activity is something they are doing as a normal part of another activity (school, church, etc.) then it shouldn't count (no double dipping). For example, one of my Scouts went with his class and planted a couple of trees in a park as part of a class project (it wasn't optional). That I wouldn't count because I believe the Scout should take some initiative himself to do service (he had to do the class project if he wanted a grade). We're only talking a few hours for Star and Life and only one hour for Second Class. It shouldn't be that hard to take the initiative on a service project.

Ok, I'll jump on the bandwagon and add a piece of thought for this discussion (If you can't move 'em, join 'em). In the movie Contact (starring Jodie Foster and Matthew McCaughey?), Jodie's character is a scientist who feels that faith has no place in her life. Matthew plays a former seminary student that is involved in some scientific research. When questions Matt about how he can believe in God and tells him to prove to her (the logical, scientific approach) that God does exist, Matt has a great answer. He simply asks her, "Did you love your father?" and she says, "yes, of course." He then replies "prove it". She then realizes that there are some things you just have go with on faith and let your feelings decide.

These are some of the same questions I've had since I've been doing the recruiting for my troop for several years. After doing some probing on this board and other places, something I've realized is that a majority of the time when kids do not want to cross over, it is the parents who do not want to continue. You can't believe how many parents I've heard over the years that have said "they" need a break from Scouts and maybe they'll come back in the fall. Or, even though the kids did sports and Cubs for several years, the kids suddenly "can't handle" doing both baseball and Scouts at the same. Or my favorite, "we like to do family activities during the summer". Since when is Scouting something that can't be done by families?

We just got a group of kids crossing over where their Webelos leader had an older son in another troop in our area (so she unfortunately went with them) and she prepared the parents and kids for what they could expect from Scouts. It was a great experience and the kids have shown in two weeks how incredibly prepared and excited they are for Scouts.

Another thing to watch out for is the kid whose coach and parents are convinced they will be an All-American in baseball, hockey, soccer, whatever and believe that if their son doesn't totally commit to that sport exclusively, then his career is doomed at age 11. My troop lost a great kid when he was twelve because his baseball coach convinced him and his parents that his only shot at the major leagues was to give up Scouts and all other sports and focus totally on baseball. This kid, who is probably the best athlete I've seen come through my troop in the past 19 years, quit baseball at age 15 because he was burned out.

One other thing that is a smaller version of what we contend with in Boy Scouts. The Arrow of Light is often played up as the ultimate achievement and the end of the Scouting road. The packs that view it as a great achievement that is merely a stepping stone in the continuing road of Scouting have much higher crossover and continuation rates.

Like everyone else has mentioned, get involved with the packs so they know who you are and what you do. I know it is tough with a small troop (we just went over ten Scouts for the first time in almost four years), but you don't have much of a choice. Also, I may be wrong, but it seems like you are relying on the same one pack to supply all your kids. Go out and find another pack. Even if they just supply you with one or two kids, that can stir things up enough to add some fresh blood to your troop and create a spark.

I've been following this discussion and it seems like it is going well beyond the realm of this forum and should probably be continued in the Politics and Issues forum.

Patrol activities should be strongly encouraged. However, they should supplement the troop program (as laid out by the Scouts of the troop) and not replace it. For example, most troops do an outdoor activity once a month. If patrols want to do their own activites in addition to the regular troop activities, that is great. When I was a Scout, my patrol had patrol meetings on occasion and even did a couple of patrol hikes. They weren't huge hits, but we felt like we were accomplishing something.

The big concern I think most people have is that say, for example, the PLC is trying to decide what to do for an activity. Three of the four patrol leaders, along with the SPL and ASPL, decide that they want the troop to go on a bike hike at Local State Park. The other patrol, not liking to ride bikes, decides that they want to just do a regular backpacking hike at ThatOther State Park instead. Therefore, they skip the troop event and do their own patrol event while the rest of the troop is biking. I personally feel that is wrong and causes trouble for the strength of the troop. What does everyone else think?

Ideally, what I'm trying to build my troop toward in the next few years is having the kids move up in positions each year. The first year, they either don't have a position or they are a patrol staff member (scribe, QM, etc.) The second year, they move up to being a troop staff member (scribe, QM, Librarian, Historian, Den Chief, etc.) The third and fourth years, they are the PL's and APL's of their patrols. Then, our SPL/ASPL would be at least 15. That way, we don't have kids as SPL at 13, "retired" at 14 and looking like there isn't much left to do in the troop once they've gotten their Eagles. Although I understand the purpose behind the BSA set up of the "New Scout Patrols" or the "Experienced Scout Patrols". However, I think when you have an 11 year old being a patrol leader when he really has no clue what he's doing (yes, I know he can be trained, but in reality the patrol is run by the troop guide), then you have a 14 year old who could be a good patrol leader but can't be one because there is another strong leader his age. Then, you are not using the troops resources the most effective way. You can teach younger kids how to lead without having to give them "honorary" positions when they are not ready for them.

In researching this over the 8-10 months (including a ton of questions on this forum), I've heard from a lot of troops that have older patrol leaders and when they want to do a high adventure trip, they simply do it by age and don't need a separate patrol for it.

I think a lot of the reason why a lot of kids leave Scouting early is because they feel they've done everything they needed and are done "growing". If they still feel like they have room to grow and learn, I think that will play a big part in them staying longer.

The high adventure trips are definitely a good thing to keep the older guys interested. I can't wait until my troops "core" is old enough to do some of those things. Another good thing that keeps the older Scouts interested is the OA. The OA is big about promoting service to the arrowman's home unit. I know that is what kept me in once my buddies in my troop quit and the only one my age (which I was the last 2-3 years I was a youth). Something very important is that the Scouts have friends their own age that they can hang around with and share experiences. My fondest Scouting memories after the age of 14 came outside of my troop, either with the OA or at Jamborees (both of which I attended without anyone from my troop). From observing other troops that have older kids around to help (especially after they get Eagle), I see a lot of times the older guys are good friends and have a lot of shared experiences together.

One of the things I am fighting in my troop is the perception that the kids get their Eagle and leave (most of our Eagles get the award right before turning 18, so that is part of the problem) or that once they turn sixteen, they have to leave. We have a Scout finishing his Eagle and turning 18 this month, so he is more than likely gone. We have another Scout looking to finish his Eagle this summer and turning 16 in September. According to rumor, he plans on leaving the troop at that point and just being active in his Venture Crew. He thinks that there is nothing left in Boy Scouts once a Scout gets his Eagle. My job with our group of 13 year olds is to keep them together and get them to stay around once they get their Eagle awards.