Chippewa29

Before anyone posts a reply saying this is in the wrong forum and I should be posting this in the Uniforms forum, please read carefully.

Currently, I am the only adult leader that wears the uniform on a regular basis. Although we have a troop committee that is quite active (I think we have great committee support for a small troop), I have no active ASM or other "uniforms" to help me with the week to week running of the programs. I've mentioned to a couple of the dads in the troop that are there on a regular basis (we have several) that I felt they would do a good job as an ASM, but they seem very reluctant to "make the committment". Parental participation is not a problem in our troop. At our last camp-in last weekend, we had five Scouts (out of eight) attend and each one brought their dad for at least one of the two nights. With myself, we actually had more adults than Scouts at one point.

How do I get more adults interested in becoming a uniformed Scouter and taking a more active role? We have training coming up, and a couple of the dads are talking about joining me for it. As our troop gets larger, I'm going to need more help on which I can count on a weekly basis, especially since I believe each patrol is supposed to have an ASM assigned to it to act as an advisor.

One thing I forgot to post is that we would require the Scouts going to pass the BSA swimmer test. We are planning on this being a day trip, although an expedition would be very cool for the future. I like the point of checking with the rafting company. If the our Scouts don't meet their minimum age or weight requirements, then we'll have to see about "scaling down" again to a canoeing trip. The big question is this. What happens if the minimum age is eleven and the minimum weight is 80 pounds (something that sounds pretty normal)? Our Scout in question is only 70 pounds at this point, but the rest of the Scouts in the troop are easily over 90 pounds. that would be a hard one to explain, but once again, how much do you let the limitations of one Scout dictate the activities in which the troop takes part?

I like all the posts I've read so far. They've sparked some ideas. For a few years, when Webelos would come to visit, our Scouts would take them as part of the troop meeting (a semi-regular meeting that had some adjustments to it, but they got the basic idea) while the SM would speak with the parents and tell them stories about the different high adventure trips the troop had been on. Some of the parents liked it, but most of it went right over their heads (besides the fact that it went on for an hour). They left with polite thanks and appreciation, but it seemed like they were bored at times. Last year, we tried a different approach. We went to a more informal approach (the adults watched as the Scouts did the meeting). While watching, current parents from our troop talked one on one or one on two with the Webelo parents and basically just made friends. Since they had kids the same age and were all relatively new to Scouting, they related very well and some of them actually exchanged phone numbers because they had struck up a friendship. This resulted in us getting a den of Webelos, coming in a close second on another (the Webelos leader said had three of the kids not had older brothers in another troop, they definitely would have come with us), and a couple of first year Webelo dens were very impressed. My vote definitely goes for the informal approach.

My troop had our annual planning weekend last weekend. A great time was had by all. We ate well, got some training and planning, and had a good time playing in the snow (we wimped out and stayed in cabins). One of the activities the Scouts said they wanted to do this year was go Whitewater rafting. They said the same thing last year. Since we were dealing with mainly 11 and 12 year olds, we felt it was best we didn't do whitewater, but instead went to a river in Northern Michigan that had some rapids. The kids had a great time, but they said they wanted to up the adventure this year and go whitewater rafting. Since the kids are older this year, and have grown quite a bit (both figuratively and literally), I think they should be fine since most whitewater places have made things safe enough for people that are not big time adventurers to enjoy it.

We have a father who thinks that the Scouts are still too young and we should just go canoeing again. It happens that this is the father of our challenge Scout, who is twelve but is still only 70lbs and is pretty timid (basically, he would be very happy if we ran our troop like a cub pack, that is about the right level for him). The dad thinks the trip last year went really well (it did) and we should just go do the same thing again. A couple of the other parents feel their sons are ready for the new "challenge" and like the idea of whitewater rafting.

Two questions. The first is whether other troops take Scouts that are 13 and under on whitewater rafting trips and what results have they had from them? Second, I feel like this one father wants the troop to make sure every activity the troop does is something his son would be comfortable doing while the other Scouts in the troop want the adventures to get bigger and better. How much do you accomodate a Scout that can't keep up with the other Scouts their age versus holding back the rest of the Scouts when they are ready to do bigger and better things?

In our troop, the pace setter is someone usually right in the middle of the pack as far as pace goes. Our slowest Scouts would be perfectly content to literally shuffle for a couple of hours once they got tired. With a mid-range pacer up front, the "sprinters" don't get too far ahead, but we aren't taking forever to finish a hike, either (going too slow on a hike can create frustration just like slow traffic on the road does). The slower ones are prodded along (their slowness is usually due to laziness and not physical aptitude, as they usually jump right up if the Scouts want to play a game along the trail). We'll usually have a couple of adults stay in the back to prod the slower Scouts along and asure them they aren't going to die if they have to keep walking for another fifteen minutes before a break.

I know that our lodge had to switch from a tap out to a call out back in the early 90's due to the concern of hazing. When I was tapped out in 1984, we heard this loud sound when they tapped the shoulders of the people before us. Therefore, we braced ourselves when they came by us, just in case it happened to us. Then, when they actually tapped us out, we realized that the tap was actually more bark than bite and felt like the pat on the shoulder a coach gives you when you make a good play in a game. After getting tapped, two of the characters "dragged" (led) you up to the front where they did a couple of other quick things to you (my memory of that isn't clear, probably because I was so excited), then placed you in a lineup where you put your hand on the shoulder of the person in front of you and were told to keep quiet.

The leadership in our lodge always took good care to make sure that the candidates weren't hurt and avoided problems. Of course, when the occasional older Scout (who knew the ceremony characters) or camp staff member was tapped out, they put on more of a "show" for the crowd.

Also, someone mentioned that often, the number tapped out was larger than the number not tapped out and that could cause embarrassment. I find that ridiculous. It is wrong for someone not to get recognized for something they haven't earned? Its not like they painted the non-tappees with a big reg "L" on their forehead and paraded them around with everyone laughing at them. At our summer camp tap outs, the entire crowd was standing for the ceremony, so there were a couple hundred people (many parents came up for the Friday night campfire/ceremony) while about 2-3 dozen were recognized.

I believe that a lot of the recognition ceremony lost its prestige and honor (not to mention its mystique) when they went to the call out instead of the tap out. Many people feel the same way. These days, it isn't a real big deal for the kids to be called out and become OA members, because a lot of the mystique is gone (there are other issues adding to this, but I won't elaborate).

slontwovvy-

I would love to have the problem in your area. Although we have fifteen packs in our area (within fifteen minutes of our troop meeting place), most of them are currently tied to other troops (there are five other troops in our area). Seven of the packs feed into one troop (this troop established the links with those packs several years ago when the other troops in our area were on the down swing) and although this troop gets 25+ new Scouts every year, they only have 35-40 Scouts in their troop at the end of each year. Even with the high turnover, we can't get any of those packs to even visit us (other troops have had the same problem), let alone consider switching. I hope someday that I get my troop to the point where we need to consider splitting. I agree that troops should limit their size. I think once a troop hits fifty and looks like it will keep growing, they should start working toward a split.

Back to the original issue. I hope this other pack is being built on their virtues and not on other pack's "problems" ("oh, you wouldn't want to join those people because..."). If you figure out a solution, please present it here.

What I usually tell my Scouts is that the events must be separately planned from both troop meetings and other events in their lives. For example, if they go on a field trip with school where more than half the troop goes (this can happen in our troop), then I wouldn't count it. Also, I tell them that is must include at least half of the troop and be approved of ahead of time by the adult leadership in the troop and the invitation is open to everyone in the troop/patrol. For example, four Scouts in our troop are really good friends, so if they camp out together in their back yard one night take a day to go with their parents to an amusement park, it doesn't count.

After reading the other posts and thinking more on the subject (reflecting back on seeing transitions over the years), I believe that the transition needs to be more gradual. For example, a Scout usually doesn't become mature just because he turns 18 (although some, realizing that they are approaching that age, will start acting more adultlike). I've seen 15 year olds who are more mature than 22 year olds (I'm sure we all have). If the troop has a good system where the Scouts are given responsibility at a fairly young age (basically, a boy run troop), then by the time they are 18, they should be very capable of handling some adult responsibilities.

However, that is an ideal situation. When a SM decides who to let stay on as an adult leader, they must be careful. Early on, my troop had a 16 year old Life Scout transfer to our troop (we were all 11 or 12) basically to get his Eagle. A year or so later when he got his Eagle and was about to turn 18, he asked to be an ASM. Our SM turned him down, as he was less mature than some of the 13 year olds in the troop. The SM didn't feel he was mature enough to act like an adult and help out the troop.

Several years later, as I was getting older, we had some gaps in our adult leadership (especially after I turned 16), so I, as the senior Scout in the troop, had to take on a lot of responsibility that the adults normally would have taken. When I turned 18, the SM put an adult application (filled out already) and said to just sign it. That summer, right before I left for college, our SM had a lot of family problems at home and couldn't be at half the meetings that summer. I ended up running the troop for a couple of months before I left for school. Fortunately, a new group of parents stepped up to run the troop soon after.

I would work with the troop during the summers. I had some problems with other adults not treating me like an adult, but fortunately we had enough of a generation gap (and I had basically been an adult since I was 16) that it wasn't a problem with the Scouts. After college, I went back to working with the troop on a more regular basis, while becoming a "full-time" adult leader a few years later. That time away allowed me to be seen more as an adult.

My troop currently has an alumni that worked as an ASM from age 18-21. He did a good job but was one of those guys who was such a cut up, that it was hard to listen to him (even though he was very competent). Also, his best buddies from the troop were the guys 1-3 years younger, so it seemed like he was just another youth leader. The past three years, work and school commitments have really limited his time with the troop. We've also had a large changeover in Scouts, so they don't know him as a youth or young adult. When he becomes more active again in the late spring (when his school classes are done), he'll be able to have a clean slate and be seen more as an adult that an older youth.

I think some time away is good for just about any leader so they can learn and grow, no matter how strong of a leadership development program they come from. Their outside exposure will bring in fresh ideas and attitudes to the program and keep it from getting stale. It will also give that young man a chance to grow and break out from their youth mold. I wouldn't want to get rid of any young man sincerely interested in helping the troop, but for his own good, he may need to get out on his own for a while.

I love the idea of the transition ceremony. One thing my troop has done in the past when we have a Scout become an adult leader (I believe we've done this three times over the years), we take a black marker and scratch out the "Junior" on his JASM patch. Then, the first campout he goes on as an adult, he must cook all the meals for the adults. If he "passes" (cooks well enough), then we present him with the real ASM patch. If he "fails" (no one has), then he has to cook for the adults on the next campout as well, until he satisfies the other adults' stomachs. What ends up happening is that the adults eat incredibly well. Our previous SM also did that to me when I became SM last March. He scratched out the "Assistant" and I had to cook for the adults.

Very long post, but the thoughts just came coming out. Any feedback you give would be great.

Scouter659-

I like what you've done so far. Your philosophies are very similar to mine I'll be looking forward to seeing the site again as you add more of the "meat" to it. Good Luck without the continual development of your course. I'm working on developing a training system for my troop and it helps quite a bit to see the successful systems already in place. That way, I'm not creating from scratch, but can take the best parts and put them together to see what fits for my troop.

Great idea, Shemgren. Another way to keep patches in place while sewing is to anchor them down with a couple of service stars (or similar pins). Anchor the patch in place, then you are ready to get the patch sewn on without having to wait.

OGE- That is a question that will be debated for years and years. I guess that it ends when everyone is seen as a unique individual that is treated with respect and not seen as being a part of any race, religion, etc. My troop is in a pretty homogeneous area. Last year, for the first time, we got a Scout who was of Asian decent. We didn't even think about it until it came time for rechartering and they asked us the demographics of the troop. We just thought of him as one of the Scouts and different only because of his unique personality rather than his ethnic background. The same happened last year when we had a Jewish Scout join the troop for the first time.

I learned a big lesson on this when I attended the World Scout Jamboree in Australia. Two days before I left, I met two Scouts from South Africa (in the days of Apartheid, South Africa had to send integrated troops if they wanted to attend), one white and one black. They had been on the trip for over a month and had become best friends during that time. They both loved the same soccer team and had the same favorite subjects in school and enjoyed the same activities in Scouts. Basically, they were just alike. Unfortunately, they didn't want to go home. Although they lived in the same city, they knew they wouldn't be allowed to see each other again. They told me that before the trip, they didn't realize that blacks and whites were actually very much the same. During the trip, they stopped seeing each other as black and white and started just to see each other as friends. I had never thought of it like that before, but I realized how right they were. I've never heard from either of them again, but I hope that they've been able to maintain their friendship through the last days of apartheid and the social upheaval that occured in the decade that followed its elimination.

Getting back to the original question. I believe that once we start seeing each other like those two Scouts from South Africa saw each other, PC will no longer be an issue.

How do different troops handle young (18-22 year old) ASM's? We have a Scout turning 18 in March and he has done a good job working with the younger Scouts the past two years. He has expressed a little interest (he mentioned it once) in becoming an ASM when he turns 18. What are the expectations that other troops have for their younger adult leaders to keep them from just having an honorary position?

Scamp- Fortunately, one thing I realized many years ago (not that many considering the experience of some of the other posters) is that the best leaders and organizations change to adapt with the times and make themselves better. I did a lot of OA elections while I was a Scout, so I got the chance to see a lot of different troops in action. A lot the ones that seemed to be sliding had adult leaders that were still doing things just because that is how they always did them. The best troops that had the most excitement were the ones that seemed to be changing and adapting to meet the needs of their members.

I also coach high school track and have changed about 80% of the way that I do things in the past four years. As a result my team has continued to get better beyond just adding extra talent. My former counterpart liked to say how he always had done things a certain way and they worked in the past, so he would continue to do them now. That is why he always had to work his tail off to have pretty good (but not championship) teams and was always frustrated when the same things would keep going wrong.

Before I took over my troop last year, it had been sliding in membership and energy for several years. However, the adult leadership in my troop (except for me) didn't see the need to change anything. Things had worked before doing it a certain way, so why change? I know right now that how we do things now as an eight Scout troop will need to change some once we grow. I am preparing for the change and want to anticipate the needs before they hit.

Those of you who are Cub or Webelos leaders: What do you look for when trying to find a Scout troop for your Webelos to cross over? Is is the adult leaders, program, current Scouts, big splashy presentation, etc.? Also, what are some of the big red flags that would turn you off from joining a troop (adults smoking, Scouts not in uniform, etc?)

I agree with you that the games are a "bonus" once the real work is done. Usually, after we open, the Scouts will work on rank advancement or some other skill, followed by a "business" session (menu or event planning, etc.) Once they are done with the business at hand (determined by the PL in consultation with me), then they can go and play a game (usually there is 10-15 minutes for this before we have to close).

The Scouts in my troop have 5-6 games they like to play at troop meetings (it is the last thing before closing). I believe it would be good for them to not repeat a game at a troop meeting for a year. For instance, we have about 40-42 meetings a year (take out 4-5 for holidays, 4 for Courts of Honor, etc.) and I think it would help the Scouts to try a different game each week. Some would work, some wouldn't. We've been a little limited on games as we only have one patrol and 6-8 scouts per meeting. Once we grow this year, I think we'll have more options. One thing I'd like to do is have the Scouts not repeat the same game at troop meetings for one year, which would basically force them to come up with different ideas and use the Woods Wisdom program section more effectively. How do other troops do that? Do they let their Scouts rotate a small number of games or are they really good about trying different things?

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I was 95% sure that I would take the training, if for nothing else then to try and get some new parents in my troop to take it. If nothing else, I can dig out some of the old practical jokes from my JLTC staff days and have some fun with the newer Scouters (they're adults, so they should be able to take it). The only way I won't take it now is if something really major comes up. I did like the idea of possibly teaching a session while there and then participating in the rest of the sessions to learn what I can. I think it will also be a great time to exchange ideas with other people in different troops to find out things they are doing right (similar to what I do on this forum). I am looking forward to it. I just have to make sure I keep my ego in line (humility is a great gift) and not try to take over for the instructors (although I've heard they are pretty good).

Please don't laugh, but although I've been an adult leader since 1990, I've never been through Adult Leader Training, SM Fundamentals, etc. It looks like my schedule will finally allow me to attend the training when it is offered in late March, early April. To be honest, I'm only taking it to set an example for other adults in my troop (our previous leaders had all attended training in the early 90's, but we haven't had anyone attend in 5-6 years). I was on the JLTC staff for our council for three years, have eleven years of Scout leader experience, was mentored as a youth by some incredible leaders, and did a lot of work in grad school in leadership and motivational theory (I still ready 6-8 new leadership books a year). Can others who have taken the training please reassure me that I will learn something and basically slap me up so I will have my head in the right place when I show up for the first session? Feel free to tell me horror stories (lies won't hurt in this case) that will keep me sharp. Also, being in my position, what do you think I should focus on learning while I am there (it is one evening session, one Saturday session, and one weekend)? Any input is greatly appreciated.

Whenever I hear parents complain about sewing patches on the uniform, I tell them to teach their sons how to sew. My mom sewed my patches on in Cubs and when I started Scouts. While getting ready to go to summer camp, I needed a couple of patches sewn on my uniform. When I complained that she hadn't done it yet, she handed me a needle and thread and told me to have fun. She hasn't sewn a patch on for me since I was 13. The same thing happened when I came home from my first campout and told my mom she needed to do my laundry right away because I needed my uniform for our troop meeting the next night. She took five minutes and showed me how to use the washing machine. She didn't do my campout laundry again after that. I think it was great for her to teach me those things so I would become more independent. I wish more of the moms in my troop would do the same for their sons.

I think patrol activities are a great idea for patrols to bond. When I was a Scout in the mid-80's, I was actually nieve enough to believe that the PL Handbook (much better than the current one) of the time was the way people actually did things. Therefore, when I became a PL, we had patrol meetings once a month and did patrol hikes on a couple of occasions. I was very disappointed when I couldn't get a patrol campout together. My patrol didn't grow at all during my six months, but we were the only patrol in the troop to not have anyone quit. If you have Scouts that want to do patrol activities without interfering with troop activities, encourage them all you can.

As far as being corporal punishment, I don't think the BSA would view push ups in that category. Isn't part of the requirement for tenderfoot and the Personal Fitness and Atheltics Merit Badges?

As for myself (I work out on a regular basis), the concept of physical fitness as punishment blows my mind. Six or seven years ago, while on a campout, three Scouts were making noise well past the lights out time. I've always told the Scouts that I won't make them sleep and if they want to stay up all night and talk, they can do it as long as they are in their tent and not keeping other people awake. By the third time I had to get up and tell them to quiet down, I let them know that if I had to get up again, they would be punished. Knowing me like they did, one said "What are you going to do, make us run?" I would never sully something such as a quality fitness run by making it a punishment.

Five minutes later, they were at it again. I told them to get dressed and get out of their tents. When they came out, I had the three of them pick up a picnic table and carry it to the road about seventy yards away (did I mention there was a fully loaded patrol box and two full five gallon water jugs on the table?). They laughed and joked as they carried it toward the road. When they got there, I told them to carry it back. They were still a little cocky when they got back, so I told them to take it there and back again. They did it and instead of cockiness, they were grumbling this time. As they got back, the one said, "we get the point, can we go to bed now?" I made them do it one more time. The third time, they were sweating and breathing pretty hard, but didn't speak a word. When they finished, they didn't let go of the table and just quietly looked at me. At that point, I knew they got the point and we all slept well that night.

The kids parents got a good laugh out of the punishment and one even told me they planned to use it when their wouldn't quiet down at night when he was home.

That punishment is something those kids didn't want to do under any circumstances (and something I would never have a scout do normally). They got the point and I never held it in their faces again (although one of them joked about it a couple years later when he became our SPL).

I've heard of different troops that use honor patrol systems as a means of friendly competition between patrols and to build up patrol spirit. In a few months, I hope to have enough Scouts in my troop to where we can create a second patrol and start an Honor Patrol system. What kind of point systems do other troops use and how do they reward the Honor Patrol once they've earned the honor?

I'd like to know what other troops do in regards to uniform inspections. We haven't done them in my troop for almost a decade because a former SM (well before even my predecessors) conducted a uniform inspection to fill a lull in the middle of a Court of Honor without telling anyone. Obviously, some of the Scouts were embarrassed by it and some of the parents were horrified. I sat in the back with my mouth almost hitting the floor (I was a 19 year old ASM and didn't know how to react). That was one of many things that caused that SM to be booted less than a year later.

About 4-5 years later, when I was out of college and a full time ASM, I proposed doing uniform inspections with the Scouts. Instead of doing it in a big group, I would conduct it one patrol at a time in a private room and make sure that I pointed out the positives as well as any negatives that may come up. The parents threw a fit and said they didn't want their sons subject to that ridicule (the ones mentioning that were around when the previous incident occured).

I feel that when doing a uniform inspection, it doesn't need to be a Marine-style-spit-shine-white-glove quality inspection. However, I believe a big part of wearing the uniform is wearing it correctly and with pride. How do other troops handle the situation?

I love a good practical joke as much as anyone, providing it is in good taste and it doesn't hurt anyone. While on staff at our council JLTC in the early 90's, we used to bring a bag of gear for the conference that week and another bag of stuff we used for practical jokes on each other. We had a few simple rules we followed:

1. The jokes couldn't interfere with the program or involve the participants;

2. The person you played the joke on better be able to take it (we had a few staff members, one older one, that we didn't get because they weren't mature enough to handle it); playing a joke on someone who couldn't take it or get you back was seen as a cowardly act;

3. If you dished it out, be prepared to get it back ten fold;

4. Nothing could get destroyed or damaged (shaving cream never hurt anyone as far as we knew);

5. If the jokes interfered with your ability to do your job, you cut out the jokes (staff being exhausted the next day after staying up late at night playing jokes on each other was probably our biggest "problem").

Basically, we were all equals getting each other and having some good clean fun without it interfering in our true purpose. We did have a staff wide joke we played on the SM one year and the participants knew about it (we played on it at every assembly), but they thought it was just part of the program and the SM loved it.

I think that is where the difference between fun and hazing becomes apparent. When the "victim" cannot defend himself or is embarrassed in front of his peers (he feels like a victim, as someone else stated earlier), then it is hazing. However, older Scouts or adults getting each other with good, clean jokes (ok, some weren't so clean, but the kids never knew) is part of the fun of having a group of friends. When I speak with my old friends who worked JLTC with me, our fondest memories are probably of the jokes we played on each other and the bonding they helped create between us.

Yes, we absolutely need to be sensitive to the needs of others and be careful not to push Scouts out of Scouting. I am very cognizant of that because my troop had some Scouts being threatened by other Scouts a couple of years back. Of course, as soon as we heard about it, we moved to stop it. However, it still cost us a couple of Scouts at that point and we realized that a couple of Scouts who quit a few months earlier probably had left for the same reason and couldn't be convinced to come back.

However, there needs to room for some good-natured humor in the program. I would never pick on my Scouts as much as the adults picked on me when I was a Scout (they did it in good taste and only because I deserved it and loved the attention), but I knew that they did it because they cared about me and knew I wouldn't be harmed by it. Joking with people can be a great bonding experience and show genuine trust and respect if done properly.