Chippewa29

This discussion has gotten pretty deep. I'll only make a couple of quick points. First of all, I don't see much wrong with doing some morning PT (we don't do it, we have enough trouble getting the Scouts out of bed), as long as it is done with respect (as should everything with the Scouts). After all, doesn't a Scout pledge an oath "to keep myself physically strong".

In regards to other "military" scenarios, we (Scouting) can take the best and use them in development of the boys. While on staff at JLTC ten years ago, we held daily uniform and campsite inspections. We even did a "paper towel test" (white glove) on the dishes to test is they were clean or not. As the week went on, those inspection results got better and better and became a source of great pride amongst the patrols. We are not preparing them for battle (which many people tend to think anything remotely "military" is doing), but rather helping them to develop discipline and pride.

After reading this thread, I can definitely relate the idea of a "core" group keeping too much control. First of all, when I was a young Scout, there was a core of about four of us that kept trading the leadership positions back and forth, thus keeping any younger Scouts from getting real leadership experience. After a couple of years, the other Scouts in the core moved on and I had become incredibly active in the OA. I stepped back to let someone else take charge, and there wasn't anyone. It took a couple of years for our troop to recover from that.

More recently, our previous SM was someone who had a reputation for having the attitude of "if you want something done right, do it yourself". He took over a tremendous amount of responsibility in his first couple of years in the troop and pushed out a few people because he didn't like how they did things (they didn't do them wrong, just not how he wanted it done) and over the next several years, we had no one new take on any position of importance within the troop. Fortunately, we did have an ASM that worked very well with him. A couple of years ago, our SM realized how burnt out he was and changed his tune. He started letting go of some of the control of the troop and allowing me to start inserting some of my ideas. However, we still didn't have new parents taken on a large role. Our previous SM did a lot of good things for the kids that served under him, but he did nothing to inspire people to help. Since I took over as SM, our parent participation has risen dramatically, although I am still looking for someone to step up and act as an ASM.

We also have a troop that started in our area about two years ago. When we heard they were forming, we called the SM there and offered to have him just merge his troop in with ours. He could be the SM and run things the way he wanted. Our troops resources complemented each other very well, so we thought it would be a good match. The other SM said no because he wanted the troop to be "his" and wanted to create their own history. Nine months later, he quit because he was burnt out and the parents in the troop were tired of his "my way or the highway" attitude. An ASM took over and once again, we offered for them to merge in with us, giving them free reign to develop the program as they saw fit while having three solid ASM's and a great troop committee at his disposal. Once again, he rejected us and nine months later, he quit in frustration. That troop is still in disarray. I wish them success, but with their short and troubled history, they may not be around long.

This is a question I am currently grappling with as well. We're set up pretty well right now, but once we start growing (over the winter we hope), we'll have to form another patrol and eventually get some new leaders. From what I've read, keeping patrols together to form bonds and traditions is a great idea. The idea of the new Scout patrol is one I've been struggling with. Although the concept is nice to have a New Scout Patrol with their own patrol leader is nice, I feel that being a PL as a brand new Scout is not the best way to be developed as a leader. Also, that means that an older Scout who has been trained may not get a chance to be a patrol leader because of someone else his age is the patrol leader for the older Scout patrol. I like the idea of a temporary New Scout Patrol for the first few months they are members. That way, they can focus as a group on getting their Tenderfoot ASAP and have a couple of months until they need to apply to join certain patrols.

As far as the time limits, I have seen a lot of different things over the years. However, with Scouts, at their age I feel six months is a good solid term as long as you give them a chance to get reelected. A word of caution, however. When my troop first started in the mid-1980's, there was a group of four of us (out of 12-14) that rotated the top leadership spots between us for the first three years. We had a couple of Scouts my age get discouraged because they were out of the loop and felt like they would never get to be the leaders. They found other areas where they could be leaders (school activities, Exploere Posts) and left the troop. This created a void in leadership that lasted for a couple of years. No matter how good your youth leaders are, make sure that all your Scouts that are quality leaders get a chance to lead. Also, if you have the situation where you have a Scout that is SPL at 13 and "retires" at 14, make sure there is some important job for him to do to keep him busy. My troop has lost two very good Scouts over the years because they felt they had "done it all" before they turned 14 (they hadn't gotten their eagles, which would have helped) and went astray after their term as SPL was over.

I'd like to know what everyone's opinions are on the red "brag" vests that Scouts tend to wear a lot in the Cub Scouts and some in the Boy Scouts. Also, what does BSA regs say about the wearing of those vests. Personally, I think they detract from the uniform (especially the Boy Scouts) and make things look much less sharp than without it. Also, as an avid patch collector, I hate to see patches sewn on something and worn around so they are worn out and soiled (I've always kept mine in three ring binders). This isn't one of those barn burner issues, but I would like some opinions on it.

I definitely have to agree with OGE on not restricting the parents from going. With such a small group, we've had times where parents have even had to come in shifts due to their schedules so we could make sure we always had at least two adults present. Also, as OGE said, you can pick up help by getting them on campouts. Two of our dads that have recently become more active on our troop committee did so because they came on campouts, had fun, and saw what a positive thing it would be for their sons if they helped out. Besides, about a decade (and five SM's) ago, my troop tried something like that. The parents threw an absolute fit and wondered why the Troop leaders wanted to "shut them out" of the events with the kids.

As far as I've always known, Webelos can camp with Boy Scouts providing that each Webelo staying overnight has an adult (parent, uncle, neighbor, older sibling, etc.) with them. As far as joint activities, each fall our district hosts a camporee for both Boy Scouts and Webelos. The district sets up competitive events for the Scouts, while the troops attending set up events (mainly non-competitive) for the Webelos to participate in. The weekend is used mainly as a recruiting session. We had twenty-five Webelo dens visit us during a seven hour period. Our Scouts took turns working the troop event and attending the competitions. The kids all had a great time and we made some very good contacts for recruiting (we have 14 packs within 15 minutes of us). Some of the troops had Webelo dens camp with them, but most of the Webelos just came out for the day.

The Scouts are usually in bed by 11pm at the latest, if not a little bit earlier. Unfortunately, we have several Scouts who still rely completely on their parents to get up for school each morning. My thought after I posted was to buy a loud, obnoxious alarm clock (one of the old fashioned kind) and give it to the cooks for the next morning. As soon as they can prove they can get up on time without it, they can stop using it. I think, after reading everyone's suggestions, that with time, they will take more responsibility.

Several years ago, my troop had an older group of Scouts (10 of 13 Scouts in the troop were fourteen or older) that were night owls and liked to stay up half the night and sleep in in the morning. It was not unusual for people not to get up until almost ten and not have breakfast until 10:30-11. The adults didn't think it was important for the troop to follow a schedule (we were great at "winging" things), so they allowed it to happen. We've gotten back to getting up fairly early (7am or so), a side consequence was that the adults were always the first to rise and had to wake up the Scouts (this occured while I was in grad school and only making a couple of campouts a year), practically dragging them out of bed. If the adults don't get up and get the Scouts up and going, things don't get done. Back when I was a Scout, we were expected to get ourselves up and get the fire and breakfast going in the morning. I've thought about buying an alarm clock to take on campouts for the cooks to use in the morning. Does anyone have any ideas for the Scouts to get going on their own in the morning without myself and the other adults having to use a cattle prod or very cold water?

Just to let everyone know, I told our Scouts last night that I would have details for our Dec. 1 hike for them next Monday and they all needed to bring pen and paper to our next meeting so they can write down the details. I also told a couple of parents that asked me for details that they would need to get them from their kids. Fortunately, I've been talking about getting the Scouts more responsibility for themselves and some of the parents like the idea, but just aren't so sure if they believe it or not.

One thing that anyone who achieves the success of completing a long-term goal is to establish new goals, no matter what field you are in. In Scouting, we put so much (over)emphasis on the Eagle award that most Scouts see it as the absolute pinnacle of success and once they have it, they have "arrived". They don't realize that the journey is what makes the goal worthwhile. There are plusses and minuses to getting the Eagle early. There are also different ways for Scouts to get fulfilling Scouting experiences.

I made it to Life in 16 months (minimum time for the mid-1980's), then didn't get my Eagle for another five years and two months. However, it wasn't because I wasn't enjoying Scouts or wasn't active or growing. A month after I got my Life, I was inducted in the OA and another month after was elected a Chapter officer. Since I came from a young, small troop, I had never really been around older Scouts that were good role models. A couple of the older OA guys took me under their wing and helped me a tremendous amount. I ended up getting my Vigil Honor before I got my Eagle. Looking back on it, I'm really glad it happened that way.

We've all heard about 13 year old Eagles who become a nuisance because they are bored. A good friend of mine got his Eagle at 13 and was inducted in the OA about the same time. At the urging of his SM, he got involved on a couple of committees and was elected a Chapter officer the next spring. He eventually became a two-term Lodge Chief and section officer. He later told me that when he started in the OA, he thought he was hot stuff, always wearing his merit badge sash and telling everyone how he got his Eagle in just over two years. However, once he got in the OA, he was very humbled and realized just how much farther he had to go before he "made it".

There are plenty of ways to challenge Scouts and help them grow once they get their Eagle award. It is the job of the adult leaders to make sure those Scouts get challenged.

Mom-

I am currently in a similar situation. I took over my troop as SM last March after growing up in the troop and being an ASM for ten years. I took over for a SM who was burned out and not at all enthusiastic (he also had to miss troop meetings because of committments with work). Parent participation was ok but not great.

I can tell you one thing. You've got to be patient for things to get better. My troop is no where near where I want it to be and probably won't be for a couple more years. I have no ASM's, but a solid troop committee where a lot of different parents help out. Most of those parents have started to help out since I took over. When I took over, I spelled out a vision of where I hoped to take the troop over the next few years and what it would mean for their sons. I've also spent a lot of time getting to know the parents personally and have gained their trust. That has been a big key to getting them to agree to the changes I've wanted to make over the past eight months.

What is your relationship like with your SM? Does he see you as a great supporter or as an adversary? My committee chair is a great lady that is a big support. She doesn't try to be the head of the troop, even though at times the committee chair can be. If your SM sees you as an adversary trying to pull the troop in a different direction than he wants, you'll go nowhere fast.

Don't try to jumpstart a dead horse. You may need to take a step backward before you can go forward. As long as the older Scouts aren't a distraction at the events they attend, then don't worry about them (obviously, if they are, speak to them and their parents and ask why they are there). You have to focus on the younger ones that want to be there and build with them. My troop's 17 year old is around about half the time and helps out when he can, but we are not focusing on him at all (he ages out in six months, so he won't even be a member). Our fifteen year old is doing a good job as PL (no SPL as we have only one patrol) but my main focus is on developing our 11 and 12 year-olds. They are the future of the troop. We are doing things correctly with them and not worrying about changing the older Scouts. Pick your direction, and if they don't like it, they'll go another direction (leave the troop). Don't worry about quantity numbers for troop right now, but rather quality numbers. If you only have 3-4 quality Scouts, that is your troop and work on building from there. As you get new Scouts in from the Cub Pack (or other sources), you'll get more of the quality you need and can grow from there.

Something else you may want to do is try to find another SM. I wouldn't go behind your current one's back to get rid of him, but he may be looking for a way out and just doesn't want to abandon the troop at this point (our previous SM wanted out for two years before I took over, but he wouldn't quit until he knew he had a good successor). You may have to look around outside of the troop, but start searching for one. Even if you have to bring in someone to be an ASM for a time before they take over, that is great.

I was kind of glad to see your post and realize that we're not the only troop going through growing pains right now. However, I must tell you that being a part of a small troop going in a upward direction is much more exciting than when we were twice the size a few years ago, but shrinking and having no direction whatsoever.

Currently, I'm a SM with a small and young troop. We have a great bunch of kids that I'm trying to work with to develop as leaders before we grow with more Scouts crossing over during the winter/spring. The parents in the troop are very nice people who have formed a very solid troop committee and perform those support functions very well. My dilemma is that these parents don't want to let the kids grow up (even as they say they do) and become more independent. At the end of our meetings, they pick up their son's books and neckerchiefs (taken off during game time) so they won't be forgotten. On campouts, they won't stay out of the way of the Scouts as they are trying to get things cleaned up after meals or packed up (especially their own sons). They won't even let the Scouts leave the campsite or do any activity unless a parent is there with them "to make sure they're safe". I'm not talking about brand new 11 year old Scouts, but 12 year olds that have been with the troop almost two years. I think they need to be left alone to do the work around camp (they've been trained and need the practice on their own) and allowed to take excursions (hikes, games, etc.) away from camp on their own during the weekend. Otherwise, I don't think they'll develop the needed maturity. In comparison to other things, this isn't a huge problem. However, I would like some advice on how to approach the subject with the parents without offending them or saying they are bad parents (which they aren't, they just need to let their sons grow up).

Thank you all for your help (and mainly support) on this. We had a troop activity yesterday (wall climbing followed by hiking at a nature center) and this Scout was fortunately on one of his good days, although his dad did have to reign him on about every 15-20 minutes (rather than every 3-5 minutes on a bad day) so he didn't get in the way of the other climbers.

Mike Long- I think you are correct that he may need to have to be given a SM approved leadership project rather than a leadership position. I'm hoping that he shows enough responsibility so that in a few months, he can hold a position such as troop librarian or historian (something he could be very good at if he were responsible enough). I'm guessing that you agree with me in that I shouldn't just advance him if he is not growing and learning (this won't be an issue for a few months until he gets his first class, so I'll probably have to sit down with his parents ahead of time to let them know of my intentions).

sctmom- I like your suggestion about very specific goals. I've sat down with him and his parents on a couple of occasions to help him get a plan to move forward, but I'll probably need to do this more often and be more specific.

Old Grey Eagle- dealing with Scouts with disabilities is one of the great challenges/rewards of being an adult leader in Scouting. I knew several Scouts with physical disabilities while growing up (no arms, in wheelchair, etc.) and I had a tremendous amount of respect for them, but most importantly, I realized they were just normal guys like me who had a lot of the same dreams and goals. The big difference between them and my current Scout is that they were working very hard to not have to get special attention and made a concerted effort to make sure they "carried their weight" by doing a large amount of the work they were physically capable of to make up for the work they couldn't do. This Scout doesn't understand why he has to do any work when he doesn't like to do it.

Scoutmom- I love the idea of the Scout buddy, and we have done that on a couple of occasions. Before last March (when I became SM), I was often his buddy and worked with him when he wouldn't do what we were doing. There have been a couple of times the past six months where we've had a 17 year old Scout whose taken him aside and worked one on one with him to keep the meeting going. Unfortnately, that older Scout is only there half the time. I have no ASM (previous SM and ASM both have had their work situations change since spring and are no longer active in the troop on a regular basis) and none of the parents, although they are very good in committee support roles (including this Scout's parents), none of them want to make the committment to having duties on a "regular" basis. I'm only 29 and was one of the original members of the troop (the only one left), so all troop alumni are currently in college or just starting careers (and families) and haven't been active in Scouting for years (one of my former troopmates is actively involved with youth through the school he works at). I'm hoping to recruit a couple of ASM when we get new Scouts over the winter/spring.

As for giving up on him, I have no intention of doing so. Two years ago, when we were recruiting this Scout's Webelos den to join the troop, they came and visited (our troop had three Scouts at the time) and this Scout was himself (I remember thinking that I wanted that den to join but I was hoping he would go somewhere else). A week after the visit, the Scouts mom called me and we had the first of several long conversations about the Scout (she let me know of his difficulties) and said she and her husband were very impressed by what they saw at our troop (small but high quality kids) and the amount of individual attention he could get. He was the only Scout we got from his den (the rest of his den went elsewhere when they heard he was coming with us). Our SM at the time said he was my problem (as I had recruited him) and wasn't the most patient with him, but my feeling is that this Scout was the one the really needed Scouting.

My big fear now is that when we get new Scouts crossing over in February/March (we expect 10-12 to go along with our current eight Scouts) is two-fold: first, that if we get another Scout with similar problems, I will have to be a personal counselor for just a couple of Scouts and we will lose other Scouts because they seem lost in the system. The second is that right now, our current Scouts have been very good in dealing with our "special" Scout (they do their best to include him in troop activities and ignore him when he acts up). Once we get another bunch of Scouts in the troop, we need to start training them and working with them (by spring, I'll have one 15 year old, five 12/13 year olds, and one 11/12 year old, so we are very young). My troop is at a critical stage right now, as we have been purposely growing slowly the past two years and are about a year away from having a good solid core of youth leaders that are actually capable of leading activities with mimimal adult intervention. I'm afraid that if my time is stretched too much, we're going to go off the tracks and have to start rebuilding again. We've got a chance to become an outstanding troop and things are falling into place, but we are still pouring the foundation and don't want to building to collapse.

Thanks for the input. Yes, he has been diagnosed with ADD. He was on a ton of meds for years and his parents had him taken off of them last June, as they weren't helping him at all and were stunting his growth (the kid is 12 1/2 and only 4'2" and 60lbs.) They now have him on vitamin supplements and he has improved a little bit. He also has been diagnosed with obsessive compulsive disorder. Yes, he is quite a handful. I've spoken with his parents on several occasions on trying to find a game plan to help him become more accountable. Every time, they agree and maybe he is a little better the following week, but then the next week he is back to his old antics and his dad is laughing about it, thinking its cute when he does these things (it is something that is cute when a four year old does it, but almost embarrassing when a twelve year old does it). The Scout doesn't do anything really bad, but he is very self-centered and wants everything to revolved around him. I've spent a tremendous amount of time working with him to keep him from distracting the other Scouts. Peer pressure has no effect on him. The other Scouts are very good with him (considering how much they have to work around him) and try to include him in on everything (we even have a couple of older Scouts who have taken time out of working on their merit badges/Eagle projects at meetings to work with him and try to include him in on troop activities when he wanders off), but he is incredibly thick-skinned and doesn't care what other people think of him (his parents have said he is the same way in school). The parents are very inconsistent with how they deal with him and don't follow through with their plans (they communicate them to me). They tend to resort to bribes and "Oh, its just how he is" when he acts up instead of using any form of discipline.

I'd like to help the kid, but I feel its getting to the point where I'm having to neglect the other Scouts to take care of this one Scout. As we are expecting to double to size of our troop in the next six months (from committments we've received from Webelos dens), I could see this becoming a big problem.

A bit of advice is needed. My troop currently has a Scout that is 12 1/2 and just finished his second class and on his way to first class. He's a nice kid, but during meetings, if the subject isn't something he wants to do or something else catches his eye (like the toys in the corner as we meet in a church basement that doubles as a nursery school), he just wanders off and then expects to have his book signed like he was there with everyone else. I've felt that I shouldn't sign his book unless he can prove he knows the subject taught (the rest of the Scouts get their books signed by participating and showing their knowledge during the class). His maturity level is literally that of a 7 or 8 year-old but he is literally a genius. He has no problem learning the Scout skills and finishing the requirements (he is at 90% of troop events). Like I mentioned, he's not a bad kid but he wants everything to revolve around his needs (fortunately, the other Scouts tolerate him and ignore him when he acts up) and doesn't understand why everyone doesn't think like he does. I've tried discussing this with his parents over the past year and a half on several occasions. Of course, the parents say they argree with me, but the next week, he is wandering off and not doing what he is supposed to do (we've given him a special attention at times so the other Scouts don't get have their experience disrupted). Recently, we handed out some troop positions for the first time (QM, Scribe, etc). I announced them for two weeks and explained what the jobs entailed. We (the SPL and myself) then asked for the Scouts interested to submit their names. Our "trouble" Scout didn't apply for any of the positions. After we sat down and selected the Scouts for the positions, we swore them in and presented them with the office badges. Of course our "trouble" Scout came up to me (with his Dad right behind him) and asked why he didn't get a new patch for his uniform (he loves to brag about what he has done and show off the different badges he has earned). I explained to him and his dad that for one, he didn't apply for one of the positions when they were announced. Second, I didn't feel he had shown enough responsibility to handle a leadership position (he never does his share of the work, always leaves his things all over the place, is not a team player, etc.) I told him that we could reevaluate in a few months if he showed me that he could be responsible (I specifically said he had to not wander off and not lose things or expect his parents to keep track of his things at meetings or campouts). The next week, he was back to his same routine.

This Scout will easily be able to do the requirements for First Class, so I don't feel that I can hold him back because he is immature and wanders off (he doesn't interrupt other Scouts when he does it). However, for Star, he will need a leadership position and I don't feel that he should be getting a leadership position (and thus advancing) if he is not growing and learning and willing to change. Am I correct in holding him back like this (or will I be?) Or should I give him a leadership position and hope it will help him change?

Very long, but I hope you get what I mean.

MrScout, I had the same thought about leaving them out there, but their parents didn't offer me enough money. I also realized I forgot to mention that while we were out hiking, there was heat lightning and a little bit of thunder while we were on our way back (it never did really storm) as well as a mist coming off the marshes in the woods, so it was a very surreal experience.

On a campout in September, I convinced my troop to go hiking at night through the woods with no flashlights (I had one in case of an emergency). Also, I told the Scouts not to talk during the trip. They were absolutely amazed at how much they saw and heard even though it was dark. We even had a buck less than five feet from us (that was what it sounded like). The parents were amazed I got them to not talk for over an hour and the kids are still raving about the experience. In fact, when we went on our next campout, they said they wanted to go night hiking again and requested it be in silence and without flashlights. Does anyone else have anything simple and fun like that to open the minds of the Scouts and give them a great experience?

Two ways my troop deals with parental concerns about their sons outgrowing uniform parts. First, we keep have a troop uniform bank made up of uniforms from former members or that people have picked up a garage sales. That has helped quite a bit over the years. Second, we tell the parents to see what size fits their son now and buy one size up. Usually, the shirt will then last the Scout two years. In our area (we tend to live in an upper middle class area), the families go school shopping every year (spending an average of $400 per child) and buy new hockey and soccer uniforms each year (costing $100 plus). Therefore, having to buy a Scout uniform once every two years doesn't seem like such a big deal. Besides, the only items that will need to be replaced because of size are the shirts, pants, and shorts. The belt, hat, and neckerchief can all last forever. I've had the same troop neckerchief for 18 years and it is still in great shape. I've gone through a few belts and hats over the years, but that is because I've lost them or traded them away. Except in the poorest areas (like tiny1pj's) it is an option for Scouts to do some odd jobs for relatives or people around the neighborhood. In addition, Christmas and birthdays can be good occasions for new Scout parts.

My personal feeling is that medals (whether worn by youth or adult) should be worn only for special occasions (Courts of Honor, community ceremonies, etc.) Of course, anyone who has earned a medal has the right to wear it whenever they wish, but a couple of things to keep in mind. First, how special is something that is worn all the time? A big reason why certain awards are special is because they are not seen everyday. Second, why would you want to wear the medal all the time? Is it to get recognition for yourself or is it to honor the award? I only wear my Eagle medal to Eagle Courts of Honor to show support for the honoree and "welcome him to the club".

I recently (March) took over a troop where I had been an ASM for several years. The previous SM was very much into high adventure and low-impact camping and placed a tremendous amount of emphasis on teaching these skills to the Scouts. The result was that we had a great bunch of followers that had good camping skills but could not lead worth anything. In addition, our troop was gradually shrinking. Since March, I've been emphasizing leadership skills. We still camp ten times a year. Amazingly enough, our campouts have actually gotten better because the Scouts are actually leading instead of just waiting to follow someone. I emphasize leadership skills for two reasons. First, they are the best set of skills that you can equip a young man with before he goes out into the real world and they can be used in virtually any situation. Second, in order for any organization to grow and prosper, the leader must duplicate himself (or herself) by developing other leaders. Otherwise, the group will never grow beyond what the one leader can handle.