AwakeEnergyScouter

Interesting. Honest question: what would clearly demonstrate to you that I do not see myself as participating in the culture wars? Right! Exactly. We share a values foundation. That IS the hill to die on in scouting, don't you think? That we should base all our activities on the Scout Law and Oath? Or do you feel otherwise? If I am right and we do agree that all of our activities in scouting should be grounded in the Scout Oath and Law, then would you also agree that violations of the Scout Law and Oath should not not be tolerated in scouting contexts, or do you think that gi

Sounds like they could use some extra support. Nothing wrong with preparing to help people in groups if there's patterns in who has obstacles and why. What would help military dependent scouts?

These kids today need to appreciate the roots of their fancy image emojis, the merit badge should have requirements like "design your own ASCII smiley using at least five characters"

I was wondering about "the behavior" (I assume going full papa/mama bear) in unisex environments, in case I might have been too quick to think that benevolent sexism was a factor, but even if there's a fuller picture of papa/mama bear behavior that goes a bit too far in single-gender environments as well as mixed-gender environments asking for female-only zones really shouldn't be happening. We are all scouts. That's not a narrative, that's how it is. Or, perhaps I should say, that's how it should be in a properly functioning scouting organization. I don't think that's subtle at all. I've neve

Would you be willing to say more about this?

I agree that there is a strong narrative around saying that everyone has to 'pick a side', but I don't know that the narrative is correct. Why are there only two 'sides'? Why are these the sides? Why must I buy an entire 'side' hook, line, and sinker? Reeks of false dichotomy to me. I don't think the world works that way, and I think - to your later point - that in order to preserve scouting as a place to find healthy acceptance, we need to reject that basic frame. Everyone should feel welcome and accepted as they are, quirks and all, in Scouts. That can't happen if scouts/scouters are on two

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying that the latest traditional gender role is a threat. I was pointing to how wide the agreement that aggression and violence towards women (because women are a subset of people) is bad is. We agree on that even if we disagree on the accuracy of other feminist ideas and policies. And this agreement is what's relevant for this discussion. Feminist analysis of gender roles is out of scope for this discussion, but there is plenty elsewhere to read on the subject if you're interested. As far as the PWD podium goes, that leader made sure to say it out of ea

Your sign idea is solid, and the other troop's behavior was not. That's not at all acceptable. First dibs on the big shower is not scout-like at all! And I'm with Eagledad, how can a troop override the camp leadership? Camp leadership needs to fix this for you. I'm also struck by that they had their own signs, which means they planned it. And it wasn't just that they hogged the good shower and sink, they did so by reference to gender. I can't know for a fact, but it smells like benevolent sexism, like they thought that they deserve the nice facilities because it's men's duty to sacrifice

Thanks for taking the time to explain! I understand that you're moving on. No problem. I did want to clear something up, though, for everyone still here, that seems to have been missed. This was a family pack that, unbeknownst to me when we joined, was in the family den pilot with written explicit permission to have both girls and boys together in dens. The relevant agreement bullet is Beginning with the 2022-23 program year pilot packs may form Lion (Kindergarten), Tiger (1st Grade), Wolf (2nd Grade), Bear (3rd Grade), and Webelos (4th Grade Only) dens with boys and girls in

I'm trying to point to that basic feminist values are not opposed to scouting values, including therefore BSA values, by asking the reader to really take in what RememberSchiff posted an excerpt from. Of course you recoil from gender-based violence because it is mid-evil, and it's not just you and me who think so. Having that gut reaction of NO! is the sign that this is outside the Overton window for whatever society you're part of. Of course WOSM is joining the UN in trying to get gender-based violence to stop, and to move the world closer to having gender equality, because it's totally the r

I honestly do not see what's so horrible about having two dens share a meeting for pragmatic reasons. It was allowed for different ages already, and multiple ages could even be in the same den. All for pragmatic reasons I imagine. Like you say, InquisitiveScouter, you still have to apply some judgement and common sense. I don't see how that's against either the Scout Law or Oath, and definitely not that's a much worse rule-bending or breaking than many other such situations discussed here on the forum previously. Sure, some pragmatic rule-bending or breaking can be dangerous, but it doesn't ne

Of course. Had they not done that, they couldn't have served girls at all. They wouldn't have had the leadership. Finding double the den leaders, or getting the existing den leaders to do the same den meeting twice isn't trivial, especially to serve just one or two scouts. And how fun is it to be in a den alone? And tell me, what is the danger we're saving classmates by day from, by making sure that they never do the same activity in a den meeting together? They were allowed to go camping together and do pack meeting activities together, and often are in the same class all day - what woul

And let's also not pretend that girls and boys scouting together is some radical, newfangled thing that's actually outside the US Overton window that some radical radicals are trying to force the BSA and every single individual inside the BSA to adopt as part of a daring cultural war caper to ruin the BSA and/or America. Like... Where is this narrative even coming from? In case someone needs to hear this, the pack we joined was in the family pack pilot (so parents approve of scouting together and committee voted to enter the pilot), and every single committee member with a son in the pack

Reading the replies above, I can't help but notice that a) no one has disputed that opposition to scouting's promotion of feminist goals of gender equality is outside the Overton window in the US b) at least one person takes the view that membership policy is still evolving and c) there is yet another call to disengage from standing up for gender equality. To me, this reads as confirmation - and the risk of confirmation bias is why I'm sharing the above as a bystand - of that the purpose of continuing to complain about girls and LGBTQIA+ people in the BSA is to get national to reverse all

Barry, I assume you're talking about me in the discussion about affinity groups? If so, you have misunderstood what I was saying, and you're going beyond the frames of civil discourse that in that you're not sticking to the issue (saying that girls shouldn't be in the BSA, especially with bitterness or vitriol, hurts the scouts it's aimed at and thus the BSA) and that you're telling how I feel and what my motivations are - and you're wrong about those. Please stick to civil discourse in the future. I have explicitly explained my motivations several times. Let me know if you need links to those

Perhaps this is a product of us being effectively in different social spaces (especially thinking of us being from different countries here), but I don't know that society is debating whether it's okay to be violent towards women because they're women. I've never, ever, in my life heard anyone, male or female, young or old, any attribute or other you could choose, say that it's ok to hit women because they're women. In the path I've taken through life on this planet, that's completely outside the Overton window of every society I've been part of. No debate at all. It's universally condemned as

100% everything you just said, @FireStone! Bravo! And for any scouts and prospective parents reading this, there are units out there that are in fact on board with the scouting movement's commitment to feminism as per @RememberSchiff's post above. I and my scout have been nothing but welcomed by our pack and council IRL, and one of the male leaders was so thrilled to see girls sweep the speed podium at our Pinewood Derby this year that he talked about it throughout teardown. There are male allies in the BSA.

I suppose you're right, I don't know for a fact that the scouter in question meant it as a political show of support for Ukraine in the war. They could be Ukrainian and wanted to give a nod to their other country. But political support for Ukraine in the war is a very psychologically available interpretation for many, which is what makes it dicey in terms of not taking sides in armed conflicts even if that wasn't what the scouter meant, and the Puerto Rican scouts are all both from Puerto Rico and members of the BSA at the same time all the time in a way Ukrainian scouts aren't scouting with t

This could be me not culturally getting it, but why would US American young men be more prone to sexual assault than European young men? What does it mean, exactly, to not be Scouts UK? How is the BSA significantly different to Scouts UK? (Why Scouts UK in particular?) I will share an off-the-cuff reaction someone in our pack had to how my patrol camped, everyone including leaders in a single big canvas tent. "That's probably much safer [than BSA YPT]". And I think they might be right, because the audience for any CSA is literally everyone there. That's pretty darn hard for a perp to pull

I wish they would. In fact, I bet I'm not the only old WOSM scout in the BSA who's scouted in another NSO where everyone scouts together and has for many decades. Totally doable.

Ah, here is where it gets actionable for us scouters. I agree completely. Advancement can become "scouting materialism", in the sense that you're talking about. If scouts weigh their own worth as a human being based on their advancement, something's not quite right, but we're the right folks to look for that and correct as necessary. If nothing else, if others around us don't see the problem, we can just straight up point out the misunderstanding to the scout. Their essential worth as a human being does not depend on scout rank or advancement at all, and never did. Just being together an

There's nothing like proof of concept to pull you out of a spiral of self-doubt someone is trying to suck you into. Well, except your own experience. It's really hard to take someone who's saying you can't do what you've already done seriously. But for girls, who haven't had time to do all that much yet because of age, proof of concept is very helpful when it comes to deciding whom to listen to. How wonderful that the scouts got to meet a live "Rosie"! Can't be many left.

I think you're right on the money here. Part of the reason things have turned out fine generation after generation is that the youth were guided skillfully enough by elders who didn't give up. The youthful perspective is important, but so is that of the elders. Both are needed. So it's important to rouse wakeful energy and confidence when they start wanting. We can make a difference, there is a point, even if youth don't show it as you do the helping! Also, youthful mistakes as well as parenting mistakes tend to correct themselves with more reality feedback. Can't imagine people who being

Even with a red passport in addition to a blue one, I represent US scouting with the BSA when I'm in the BSA uniform. The Swedish flag goes on the Swedish scout shirt, the US flag on the US scout shirt. Puerto Rican flags make sense for Puerto Rican scouts. So unless they're in Scouts Ukraine in a Ukrainian scout shirt...

Well, considering that the youth of today have been terrible since the days of Aristotle, I'll say it could have gotten much worse 😂 Are you familiar with the book Factfulness by Hans Rosling? He's got a few TED talks that are lowkey inspiring in terms of building a better world. We in high-income countries don't feel it day to day, but the world is actually a much better place now than in the past. Even here, things are better in a lot of ways. It's good to remind oneself sometimes.