AwakeEnergyScouter

I've wondered about this, because while there are some ways in which Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA is set up to motivate youth better than Scouterna (at least when I was a youth, I see they've re-done the program), I suspect that one way in which Scouterna is more realistically structured is that the switch from mostly adult-led to mostly youth-led is more gradual. We don't expect middle schoolers en masse to be ready to chart their own path. (Some are, but most aren't.) The lanes get wider and wider until you barely notice the Scoutmaster. But the Scoutmaster absolutely pushed us to do things we didn't want to all the time, and it was clearly their job to do so in our eyes. That was part of how they showed confidence in us. The harder they pushed us, the more secretly flattered we were, and more determined not to let them or the rest of the patrol down. (Nobody wants to be the weakling...) Their demands showed us that we could do more than we thought. We were just whiney kids. We didn't expect them to actually listen to our complaining, then we'd never have done any fun adventures! And we knew it. The adults chose things like camps and hike lengths/places for many years because they knew better. It wasn't until high school when the Scoutmaster asked us if we wanted to participate in large camp X or hike Y and told us to plan a hike for weekend XYZ. Before Senior rank, they didn't ask, they told. And by the time they started asking, we'd accumulated enough personal experience to have qualified opinions so we felt ready. Also, frankly, we were much more mature! Scout-led always has an asterisk on it - *age-appropriately. It's just that we Scouters usually don't know exactly what is age-appropriate at whatever age so it can be tricky to ask just the right amount for growth. But the advancement in Scouts BSA is well-structured, I think, certainly compared to what we had as Senior Scouts back in the day. Hopefully Scouterna has improved that part of the program.

@Armymutt To answer your question directly, my personal NSHO is that if it was a requirement for a previous rank you still need to know it going forward. Other the intuitive sense that this should be so when it comes to skills, if scouts could forget how to pitch a tent, knots, cook at camp, pack a pack, etc it would make high adventure dangerous. The whole enterprise requires building and adding skills to the ones you've already got. It's like math, you never get to forget the commutative property or multiplication tables just because you're more "advanced". Part of "more advanced" is having the basics completely down.

Adding to DuctTape's suggestion, also start doing a lot of bystanding (neutrally voicing what is happening in order to offer perspective for the group) on the subject of the skill level of all troop members with a special diligence for the 11yo and the scout in question. Saying what everyone but the SM and CC see out loud makes it harder to ignore and sometimes "makes it real" for people. You may not be able to stop it, but you can shine a bright light of group attention on what they are doing (without voiced judgement) they will have to do what they are doing without being able to face that they're doing it. It might be enough for them to see through whatever mental formation is driving them to make this mistake.

It is 100% accurate that right now, Scouting America is the WOSM member from the US. None of the organizations you mentioned are going through the motions to try to force a federation and at least two do not abide by the WOSM constitution or are otherwise ineligible (size), so there is nothing suggesting it's about to become inaccurate, either. It would seem that you agree with me, despite your first sentence, or am I missing something?

We disagree on this issue, but arguably us both being involved and running units makes Scouting America stronger and more able to serve all interested youth. Families that like your unit on this issue won't like ours and vice versa - but the result is that all families can find a unit they feel welcome in. When there is a single NSO in a country (as opposed to the WOSM NSO being an umbrella organization for several scouting organizations with separate leadership, uniforms, etc), that NSO needs to contain a lot of different kinds of units or be content to serve only a small part of the youth. So, having units with different approaches (sometimes in quite sharp disagreement) is the only way forward unless one is ready to accept niche status, which I imagine no one here is.

I notice you got no reply, probably because you have a good point. Especially because this forum is full of complaints from many people who refused the Kool-Aid on various points. Once a scout, always a scout. If everyone started a new scouting organization every time they disagreed with something in an existing NSO or MO, there would be no movement left. People's Front of Judea/Judean People's Front kind of stuff. The Scouting America Scout Law even has Loyal in it - you don't go splinter off in a huff just because you see a problem. No, you go fix the problem instead, which starts with defining and talking about it. Clearly not everyone even agrees that pressuring non-Christian scouts and scouters to be Christian or at the very least accept second class citizen status and stop complaining about it even is a problem in the first place, so there's obviously a need to talk about it.

You missed the fine print - Scouting America explicitly says that they mean nothing in particular by the word "God" in the Declaration of Religious Principle. And the reason they do this is that they can't require what it says if "God" means the usual everyday interpretation in US context of the Christian god and still stay in the Scouting movement. Either the statement can't mean what it seems to say, or they have to exit the movement. TBH it seems like a setup - they want it to be read as the usual everyday meaning but rely on a legalistic trick of not meaning anything in particular with the word "God" to stay in the movement. I balked at the statement because I knew this immediately and therefore read the fine print associated with the asterisk on the word "God" - and there it was. God can be your cat if you like, Scouting America means nothing in particular with the word in that declaration. But that's of course not what most readers will take away from it. It sets up this very situation.

Sure, the Swedish Scout Law is very clearly broad, but the Scouting America version lends itself very, very easily to the misunderstanding demonstrated above. Retaining the original phrasing "Duty to God" with the g capitalized to boot is practically an invitation for certain Christians to interpret it as that being Christian is required when that would actually antithetical to the scouting movement has has been for many decades - as previously pointed out, one can easily quote BP on the subject, the current WOSM constitution defines Duty to God as “Adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom,” there are religious awards for polytheist and non-theist religions in Scouting America already, and millions and millions of non-Christian (and non-theist, including atheist) scouts have existed for again many decades. It's a faît accompli. In fact, you can't be part of either WOSM or WAGGGS if you require a religious "purity test". It's a pet peeve of mine because it's so patently absurd that it's happening from my POV, having grown up in a non-Christian scouting organization, especially when other scouters get aggressive about it and even start telling me that having signed that religious declaration means I have to believe in a single god, as again demonstrated above. It comes off as gaslighting or crazy disrespectful at best. Should it be happening? Of course not. Does it happen anyway? Yes, yes it does, as demonstrated above. What floats my boat is being left alone to pursue my "Duty to God" in peace and having other scouters respect my beliefs, and to never again have scouters telling my scout to practice Christianity randomly in a crowd at a scouting event. I do not want them to be a Christian and I don't appreciate other adults taking over religious instruction of my child.

Being told that I have to believe in the Christian god, or at least be a monotheist, because of the legacy phrasing of the spiritual duty Scouting America uses. The Law I have made the Promise to do my best to follow many times as a youth starts "A scout seeks their own beliefs and respects that of others." I have to do no such thing (be a monotheist), thank you very much, and you don't get to tell me what my spiritual beliefs are.

Nope. Current AOL patrol advisor and Cubmaster here, good personal friends with last year's AOL patrol advisor who got the pleasure of flying by their seat of their pants when the program dropped so late. Last year, when we had virtually no notice, the AOL patrol advisor hustled to get every AOL a camping experience even though they couldn't make it to the regular campouts due to scheduling conflicts. One late joiner camped out in another leader's back yard, but they camped. That was our idea of their best. This year, we have several opportunities to cook with camping equipment scheduled (not just campouts) and three campout opportunities we're providing before crossover - not counting all the troops that are courting them by inviting them to campouts. We divided and conquered at the first den meeting - I went over how the AOL year is different and what it's preparing them for with the Cubs, and the former AOL patrol advisor did the same thing for the parents. We would not accept not camping at all as anyone's best either, that would be doing them a rotten "favor".

I agree with you completely. If it helps, you can truthfully say that Arrows of Light do what what the SM suggested. I asked my AOLs to complete assembling a first-aid kit as homework for this reason, but the suggested activity from the program for that requirement is to do what the SM suggested. Presumably you should do more for Tenderfoot than AOL.

I forgot a category - National Historic Trails! They often (always?) have Junior Ranger programs, and create engagement with the land as well as local history, and hiking sections of them for all the outdoor adventures that require hiking (so everything except Outdoor Adventurer) doubles up on activities and requirements. Our pack has hiked trails that were prepared on top of El Camino Real de los Tejas and made a stop to complete the Junior Ranger booklet, and we've also used the booklet as a trailhead gathering activity. Since many modern roads in our area started as part of El Camino Real, the cubs get reminded regularly by road signs that we are now driving the same paths that Caddo once created. The trail is still very much here, we have just built on the work of our local predecessors/ancestors so that it doesn't look like a trail anymore in large sections.

Two years ago, our pack started actively providing opportunities to earn the NPS Resource Stewardship Scout Ranger patch. In the process, we've discovered a number of Junior Ranger programs that can be done outside a national park on topics that I thought others might find useful to have a list for as well. We do have a national historical park nearby, but we want to provide more variety of experience and learning for the cubs than doing the entire ten hours just in that one park, and probably few packs have easy access to several NPS parks in the first place, so perhaps some of these will come in handy for others pursuing the Scout Ranger patch as well. Junior Cave Scientist - limestone/karst cave geology and ecology, conservation in karst landscapes. This was a perfect companion for a pack summer limestone cave visit to Cave Without A Name in Texas, and I imagine it would work well in almost any show limestone cave. If you happen to be near Cave Without A Name, you can email them ahead to time to request certain topics on the tour and had I done that, they would have just walked through the Junior Ranger booklet for us. Passing that on for someone else to plan a smoother outing. Getting the badge in the mail requires sending in the completed booklet, so you will need one printed booklet per cub. Some show cave tours may be too fast to allow for the booklet to be worked through, though - Natural Bridge Caverns might not work well here for example. Even without trying to do the booklet, the cubs didn't have time to ask all their questions and linger as long as they wanted. Wildland Fire Junior Ranger - what it sounds like. Pages 3, 8, and 9 connect to Into The Woods re: fire-adapted and fire-aversive ecosystems. Page 16 and 17 relate to wildfire emergency preparedness, potentially useful for the My Safety Be Prepared For Natural Events activity. There is a patch as well as a badge for this, although since I got my cub's patch at a national park I don't know if one can get them in the mail. I don't see any instructions for that in the booklet, but there is an email to email for the badge through the mail. Because you don't have to send in the completed booklet, you could work out of one or a small number of booklets for the group for this one if you wanted. Junior Ranger Night Explorer - connects to Sky is the Limit, the Let's Camp Tiger Flashlight Tiger Hunt activity (importance of red light instead of white), and Leave No Trace for Kids point 6 (Respect Wildlife) in terms of light pollution. Junior Ranger Let's Go Fishing! - all the fishing adventures, of course. There is a list of all of the themed junior ranger programs that aren't focused on a particular park that you can find a few more in - my cub did a few more based on personal interest, and while they didn't do them all, these were the ones out of the ones they did that make sense to do as a den/patrol and/or pack because of the program tie-ins. Happy Junior Ranger training!

You're welcome, @Chisos! I thought there might be some people not currently in the council who might be wondering. Glad to have helped.

Maybe it's that I was a scout, maybe it's that I'm from a country with high accountability expectations for politicians, maybe it's because it was my job for many years to foresee and prevent problems so that we delivered to spec on time... But it blows my mind that people keep doing this. Both that the government allows it and that people don't learn and so many act like this came out of left field. It absolutely did not. It's one thing to not know. Even if perhaps you should have been more curious or critical or something. It's something completely different to know and not act. And it sure wasn't the responsibility of children to do floodplain management.