SiouxRanger

4 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

since this leader is not counseling any "restricted" MBs

What would "restricted" merit badges be?

Thanks.

And I will just have add:

When things go really bad in the outback, and your life depends on it (the news has stories weekly of folks who have died), having MASTERY of a skill is potentially lifesaving. And if not saving your life, will make a stressful situation more comfortable.

Louis Pasteur's quote "Chance favors the prepared mind" means that the better prepared and more knowledgeable you are, the more you'll be able to take advantage of any chance opportunities or observations.

Once, headed into a federal wilderness in winter time, the rangers, after looking at our gear said we passed and could go in. Knowing the difficult decisions rescuers faced in crisis, I told him, if a crisis, come look for us last. We will be OK.

(Well, and not knowing the future crisis, maybe that doomed us, but we were confident of our skills.)

And, many times merely having confidence in one's ability, allows one emotionally to continue on to solve an unknown crisis, that without that confidence would have caused them to hesitate and be lost.

THAT is what Scouting did for me.

22 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Recommend a different thread.

I never retest the Scout.

Yes, we discuss the experience.  "How did you like the badge?" "Tell me about a challenge you had, and what you did to deal with it." "Did the Merit Badge Counselor require you to do anything more than the written requirements in order to receive the badge?" "Would you recommend this badge or counselor to your friends?  Why or why not?" etc.

The attitude here is not to play "gotcha", but to gauge the Scout's experience with the badge and counselor.  So, if a Scout comes to me with a Hiking MB card, for example, I would love to hear about his 20-miler.  That is no small feat!  If the Scout says, "Well, we never did a 20-mile hike", then we have a problem, and I have a further conversation with the Scout along the lines of previous posts.  Then I have a conversation with the MBC, or the Program Director at camp. 

I'm not being the Grand Inquisitor as you seem to think.  But I do not turn a blind eye to unethical behavior, when it arises.  That would only perpetuate the "dirty little secret".  Over time, I am seeing more and more instances of Scouts not completing requirements as stated, and Merit Badge Counselors (or Camp Staff Instructors) signing off badges when they should not.

"The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law."

This includes the Merit Badge program...

 

 

 

Interesting comment, presents the question:  is Scouting an "experience" or "learning (skills mastery)?"

"Experience" implies:  "Go through the steps, complete them in some measure of demonstrated competency of skills and you are done." (Whether you remember them tomorrow or not.)

"Learning" implies:   "You've made 8 failed attempts and now you've demonstrated the skill 3 times perfectly-you've learned. Come back tomorrow and if you can do it again, you've mastered it and passed."

An anecdote:  While on that camp staff in 1969, the waterfront director at an evening staff meeting, asked me if I could put bow lines on all of the 20 camp canoes down at the waterfront. He said, "I don't want rope just tied on, I want ropes eye-spliced on to the front, and end splices on the tag ends. Do you know how to do that?"

"Yes, I do."

I slipped out of the meeting, (I was a minor nobody), went to the commissary, cut a number of lengths of manila rope for the job, and went to the waterfront.

My flashlight, attracting billions of mosquitos, I shut it off…hmmm…lovely…I eye-spliced 20 bow lines in the dark, by touch.

I returned to the staff meeting saying nothing.

The waterfront director came up to me at some point and asked when I thought I could get the bow lines put on the canoes.

"It is done."

That is mastery. I don't expect a scout to be quite that skilled, but they at least have to get it right once, and then once again after some interlude.

So, a few observations:

Comment 1:

Back in 1969 and 1970, I was under age 18, and counseled merit badges both years.

About a year ago, I asked my camp director, me being curious how it was I could counsel merit badges being under age 18, said, "we knew that you knew what you were doing, so if you approved a scout's completion of a merit badge, we (adults) signed off on the approval."

Hmmm.

On the one hand, I did know my skills dead-bang-cold, and I did not approve anyone who had not demonstrated that they could actually do the skill.  (And, being a naive kid who knew his skills, I had no concept of "approving the unskilled" to get them out the door.)  Camping, pioneering, knife & ax, fire-building, etc…camp craft stuff.

AND, I was hired for the summer camp staff position by a middle level Council Scout Professional who well-knew my  age.  So, I was definitely hired to counsel Scoutcraft merit badges being under age 18.

Comment 2:

Having attended summer camps with my sons for over 20 years, I have been impressed (appalled) by the lack of knowledge of the summer camp staff regarding their merit badge assignments.

I volunteer at the local camp to mentor summer camp staff to do what can be done to give them a head start. Many are barely knowledgeable. We do what we can.

Comment 3:

Our local summer camp has moved from 6 weeks of summer camp to 4 weeks over the last 3 years.  Attendance has dropped significantly. Maybe by 30%.

Our Camp Directors over the last few years have had a difficult time finding staff.  A 4 week paid stint at summer camp does not fill a summer, leaving about half a summer unemployed. Summer camp salaries, being what they are, really low, don't make up for half an unpaid summer.

So, potential skilled staff go elsewhere.

So, our Camp Directors have hired under age 18 staff so that the "show may go on."

I've read the Leader and SPL summer camp evaluations, and the number two complaint is that the staff were not knowledgeable.

Food issues was number one.

Our Council SE's salary and benefits is about 10% of the Council Budget.

15 hours ago, Tron said:

I'm salivating waiting for this. It's going to exactly like climb on safely! A legal chokehold that elevates national from liability and voiding the indemnification clause for leaders who do not have the training and experience an incident. This is directly from climb on safely.

The thought here being that National is surreptitiously passing liability for injuries from the Council to volunteer adults with little or inadequate training without their knowledge of the shifting of risk?

It appears that the Eagle Scout Service Project Fundraising Application and the Procedures And Limitations page are "self-contained," that is, comply with all the provisions of both and the Eagle Scout Candidate has fully complied with all rules. I note that the Application requires Council approval.

The text in both the Application and the Procedures mention "donations," with little discussion on how much effort is expended to "fund raise."  So, I'd treat the cash donation as being the result of "fund raising," complete the Application accordingly, submit it for Council approval. If approved, the Eagle Scout Candidate is done with the issue.

The law has a main "bug-a-boo," (well, thousands…), and that is, it is impossible to craft rules that cover every possible contingency.  Human activity always seems to present situations that were unanticipated. If the rules are well-crafted, the unanticipated situations are rare. In any event, unanticipated situations do present themselves and need to be dealt with appropriately.

So what is "appropriately?"

Our assumption is that we have a legitimate issue:  An Eagle Service Project.  So, there MUST be a way to accept donations and get the Project approved.

First, you want to provide full information so that decision-maker has all the pertinent information that you have.  In current jargon the word in use is "transparency." I do not like that word because the statement, "You're not being transparent," connotes intentional concealment with evil intent. Maybe the case in some government and political matters, but not so in many other things.

@T2Eagle has great suggestions.  It states the facts as they are:  "Mr./Mrs./Ms. X is donating $900± which covers all costs. Unsolicited."

You've done all that you can do and provided all the information that there is.

Now the ball is in the Council's court.  Let it approve, deny, or ask for clarification.

The law is all about "pressure."

So, the pressure is on the Council to deal with the Application as submitted. The immediate "pressure" is that the Council does not want to disappoint nor discourage an Eagle Candidate from continuing with their Project and WANTS to approve Eagle projects and increase its numbers of Eagle Scouts reported in its annual reports.

Today's scouts don't have 10% of the skills I have from my scout youth days of 60 years ago.

And, granted, who NEEDS to know how to make fire, purify water, navigate in rugged backcountry, read a compass (what is that?), read a road map, build a shelter, signal for help, teach your cat to speak French (well, maybe not that), sharpen a knife, tie knots (and bends, splices, whipping (gee-a number of ways to do that (Clifford Ashley) and lashings)), pitch a tent…

BUT, all those out-dated and antiquated skills have made me extremely confident that I can take care of myself and reason my way to good decisions.

Can I build a fire in the pouring rain?

Yes.

Do I know WHY I can build a fire in the pouring rain?

YES.

And that is why Scouting is valuable.

convoy so that if a vehicle has a failure, we can still get the youth/adult to the train on time. And the wounded vehicle can sort out repairs later.

4.  Things happen.  Run out of gas. Bathroom stops. 

5.  Lead MUST know the number of vehicles following, and MUST have a good sense, well perfect, of what the last vehicle looks like headlight wise.

6.  A written list of cell phone numbers distributed to all drivers, and if not, MUST exchange cell phone numbers to lead and tail drivers.

7.  Tail driver NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, passes the second to last driver.  The tail driver is always, ALWAYS the last driver. Some driver stops for any reason, the tail driver always remains the tail driver. The tail driver never passes any vehicle in the convoy.

We have had times, rarely, where the convoy got quite spread out and the lead pulled onto the Interstate shoulder for folks to catch up.  A questionable thing to do, but depending on circumstances, traffic load, sunshine, etc., not as risky as might be thought.

It is a lot to ask of the lead, but if everyone is paying attention it does work.

HOWEVER, in light of the information I've learned on this thread, I have to reexamine the wisdom of convoys.

(On one convoy to summer camp, a dad, once hitting the interstate, disappeared at 80-85 mph., flying past everyone.  Met up with him an hour later at the summer camp. Well beyond the speed limit.)

My half cent's worth. (not pricing myself above that sage, the Remember guy…)

Very interesting thread.

After 25 years of adult participation-never heard mention of the "no convoy" rule. 

As a lawyer, I've read a great deal of BSA documents on policy, 2 deep leadership, guide to safe scouting (no boomerangs, rats), stoves, liquid fuels. use of words with more than 7 syllables but less than 10 syllables, best practices to avoid plummeting space junk (NASA branded but ownership denied), bull roarers (OK-I think), coracles (nope), etc.

A scouting professional once "corrected me" telling me that "scouting is not complicated."

Compared to a soccer program where parent drops off child to race across field to the game and returns to the car?

Parental involvement in soccer can be nil. Liability risk is less than nil.

Scouting is very complicated.  AND, if you get it wrong (somehow, and it is easy to do), you might end up a defendant for some abuse case and paying your own lawyer tens of thousands of dollars ultimately to be proven innocent.

Try BANKRUPTCY.  Seems to have worked for National.

All of that sounds "simple" to me. Nope.

Our troop has convoyed for my 25 years there. Though never had a vehicle incident, that is anecdotal and no basis to make policy.

Much to my distress, I was always designated as the lead. Only got everyone lost once-BUT, I was following the directions precisely of someone who claimed to know what they were talking about. In our wanderings, we came across a local in the hinterland who gave us corrective directions and we made our way safely. (Sunday morning after the campout, we ran into the good smaritan in a grocery store who reminded us (M)E that "you are the lost guys I got on your way…" (Thanks.)

So, if convoying, having been the lead, there are some pointers I have learned:

1.  The lead is "driving for everyone."  That is, my van is 5-10 vehicles long. Like driving a train. You can't run through a light nd leave the rest of the train hanging.  You stop at the light. Let folks catch up. With luck all will make it through the next light.

2. Everyone needs to know where they are going in case they get separated from the convoy.  It all becomes a massive flow chart, taking into account all the unlikely events and imponderables. (On one convoy, a van lost some electrical connection under the dash.  We all stopped, the driver's brother who happened to work at an auto parts place in the town where the failure occurred, sent the right part and an hour later, the ENTIRE troop was on its way.

3.  If a vehicle suffers some failure, if all are on their own-no convoy, then that vehicle is on its own.  To get to the train taking our treks to Philmont, we ALWAYS

We solved the "3x the work" cooking issue by camping next to the parking lot and ordering out-by patrols, of course.

Separate patrol checks.  Scouts can't cook, but at least "Thrifty" is a work-in-progress.

Nothing. Not a % of any fundraiser.  Some FOS events were held at Pack and Troop events, but at least a decade ago.  FOS is defunct in out council-has been for at least a decade.

On 4/9/2024 at 1:14 PM, RememberSchiff said:

I prefer this version of Norman Rockwell's Freedom of Speech.  Others may disagree, let them.

Moderator awareness... IMMO*, some informative, robust yet scoutlike discussion here.

Thank you.

RS

* In My Moderator Opinion

Rockwell was a genius.  Well quoted. He turned "pigment into principle."

On 4/9/2024 at 1:15 PM, SiouxRanger said:

What's a "liberal?"

On so many forums, the word "liberal" is used in a negative, derisive, derogatory sense.

And the term for the opposite of "liberal" is…?

That term does not seem to be used at all.

I am not interested in starting an interminable political debate, just to obtain folks' definitions of "liberal" and whatever the antonym is ("conservative?")

1 hour ago, rallybug said:

I mean, that comment about "liberals" (that has now been deleted...) shows some discourtesy right there.

What's a "liberal?"

I have to say, just how many binders of rules do we need?

I drop my kid off at an open field to participate in a soccer game. In full view of hundreds of parents. The event lasts an hour or so. And I pick my kid up. And all is done. In full view of many adults.  (Actually, I NEVER left my kid, but for argument's sake…)

SCOUTING (activities), on the other hand, encompass a wide range of situations.

 Friday nights to Sunday mornings, in remote campsites. Plenty of opportunities for abuse situations.

Quiet, dark, secluded…

My point is that this whole situation needs to be examined and reduced to a simple set of rules that is memorable…so that all of us can instantly recognize violations.

I'm a lawyer. 50 pounds of rules. Fine.  I can do that. Three tons of rules. No problem.

But for BSA volunteers, we need to simplify it down to something memorable.  "Catchy."

6 hours ago, qwazse said:

The card is a tool for SPL’s to maintain discipline, if needed. In many troops, it’s not needed, so it might not be required.

If a scout is found to violate knife/axe safety, rather than temporarily robbing the scout of a tool, a PL or SPL may request to see the scout’s card, clip a corner from it, explain the safety violation that necessitates the clip, and assure the scout that you think he or she will do better next time. Once the scout presents a card with four corners cut (never happened in my lifetime), slice the card in half and invite him/her to retake a safety course with a JASM or instructor and earn a new card.

Obviously, if the scout doesn’t have his card with him, he needs to put his tool away and acquire he card.

The nice thing about this is that the scout is accountable to all the leaders in the camp. His PL doesn’t have to worry about watching every scout all the time. If he PLC agrees on the procedure, a scout who might “visit” a friend’s patrol just so he could violate safety without his PL catching him/her again can be mentored by the other PL without the two PL’s having to report on which scouts are playing loose with safety.

So, ask your PL what your troops policy is.

Clipping corners off Totin Chip card for infractions was the practice in my troop as a youth 60+ years ago. Don't recall it happening, though.

Inattention to sharps safety is rather self-regulating;  I learned a lot nursing cuts due to X-acto knives.

17 minutes ago, PaleRider said:

What is CAV

Curia advisari vult or c.a.v., a Latin legal term meaning "the court wishes to be advised"

In this situation, I think it means that the court is considering awaiting the Supreme Court ruling in Purdue Pharma, and thereby "be advised."

I wear my Eagle knot, and none others. (Not even sure what knots I might have earned, though, District Award of Merit, and Silver Beaver, are among them.)

It is all about the youth. Not about me.

I have at least 8 Eagle mentor pins.  (Our troop has had the practice of only having an Eagle presenting a single Mentor Pin.  Eagles one per  I wear none of them.

Those who need or want to know, they know.

Well, with a series of notice, that gives "fair warning."

But as a plain old lawyer, my plain old clients pay just no attention…and things just "roll over."

Never let anyone auto renew. Ever.

You lose control in that automatic charges will be incurred without notice, even if a scout has dropped out.

17 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I hope you are not having the scout do everything twice? That would not be good. 

Nothing wrong with "Practice to Master," THEN test.  The test should not be a practice session. 

Little is simple or obvious if one truly understands the skill-has mastered it. "Craftsmanship." Journeyman, not apprentice.

"If I don't practice one day, I know it; two days, the critics know it; three days, the public knows it."

--Jascha Heifetz

(I thought Vladimir Horowitz said that. A Google search ALSO attributed it to Louis Armstrong-enough searching…it is the thought that counts.)

As a BSA certified angling instructor, I STILL practice my fishing knots. They are inherently confusing and I don't use them enough to stay fresh.

How many bowline style knots are there? (I can think of 6 offhand, not counting mirror images of them-that would push it to 12.)

The Ranger Marathon is a huge inspirational goal to many Philmont Rangers, though its course and times recorded for its passage seem to be obscured in fog.  There are varied discussions of--course, route, times, and pack weights carried (more or less).

The start point seems to be accepted by all as the camp Dan Beard, but the end point seems to vary over time from Kit Carson Museum, to Abreu (New Abreu), to Carson Meadows.

Anyone who has first experiences running the Ranger Marathon, I encourage to post.

Thanks.

And these are just comments, Eagle, summer camp staff (2x), Philmont Ranger (4x), Philmont Trek Advisor (4x)…

52 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

At meetings, we would run one mile for conditioning.

Scouts headed for Philmont treks needed NO training-they are just too resilient at that age.  That being said, there might be a scout on the fringe of fit-that issue needs attention. 

52 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Most weekend trips were 15 or 20-milers done as loops.

"Loops" are by far the most logistically feasible. Do loops.

52 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

but it was every man for himself on the trail.  Bring all your own gear and food. 

Not efficient at all.  Carefully plan food, carefully package food into 2 or 4 person portions, just like Philmont has done for decades. (On the Ranger Staff at Philmont some decades ago, I was told by the head of Philmont's camping commissary that Philmont was the second largest user of dehydrated food behind only the U.S. Army.

And what works for the U.S. Army, and Philmont should at least be your starting point.

And that is not to mention stoves, pots, pans, etc. Is every scout bringing a stove, fuel, pots and pans?  Not clear from the post.

At Philmont, a single stove, fuel bottle or two (be prepared), and a single set of pots serves a crew of 12, and drastically lowers the weight everyone carries.

If you have not read "The Complete Walker" by Colin Fletcher, then you have No business planning anything backpacking. (I have all 4 versions and have read all of them.)

Colin cut half the handle off his toothbrush, and the labels off his underwear. To save weight.

ON TO OTHER RELEVANT COMMENTS:

 A "backpacking troop" has made a commitment to have minimal and lightweight gear.

This is EXPENSIVE.

My one person Big Agnes Copper Spur UL 1 tent cost $326.  At a discount of about $100. Cut over a pound and a half off my prior tent, a North Face Canyonlands (which I loved). The Copper Spur about 1 lb 8 ounces.

My Marmot down sleeping bag, 900 down, cut about a pound and a half off my prior bag, but cost about $400.

All of my unit's stoves and fuel bottles I own.  The unit uses them for free.  I simply want to KNOW how those stoves have been used, and I can only do that if I own them, and maintain them.  For two treks at Philmont, 2 MSR Dragonfly stoves, repair kits, fuel bottles, about $540.

MSR stoves-I only use and recommend the Dragonfly model. Immeasurably more stable than all the other MSR models. More costly.  So, you "blow up" dinner because you have an unstable stove, having saved $20 on the stove purchase. "Hello to Hunger." (In was given an MSR Whisperlite stove once-upon a brief test, I immediately put it on the trash heap.)

There is some group, name escapes me, motto was something along the lines of "BE PREPARED."

I own all the water purifier systems for my troop for the same reason. And water purifiers are much more susceptible to failure than stoves.

BUT, a failed water purifier will make you and the whole crew sick, (maybe deathly so) whereas a failed stove only provides cold macaroni and cheese.

And, at least for use at Philmont, the commercially available water purifier systems are highly deficient. I designed my own system and it worked fine.

If you want further information on that, just post here asking.

I guess, this is enough for now.

If you have any other questions, just post.

52 minutes ago, KublaiKen said:

My Troop as a youth backpacked on the AT and elsewhere in the Blue Ridge Mountains. We made sure to hike on alternate sides of the mountains each day so that one leg didn't grow longer than the other.

Oh no! I wrote a whole book, "My Circling Hiking Life." Always ended up where I started…

On 2/9/2024 at 2:52 PM, yknot said:

It can be extremely memorable, but so can a winning sports season. Kids are individuals and if they and their families have to make choices, they should be making them based on the full picture. 

So, there was this District Executive (male) who was rather "rough around the edges" who came to put on a "Boy Talk" at our Pack's and Troop's feeder school ( with a female District Executive who was, is, and remains (after 30 years) the most impressive professional scouter I have ever met.

He always seemed a bit short on sincerity-a bit cocky-so I was not too impressed, but, for some reason, I attended the Boy Talk (now, "Everyone Talk?").

And he said:

"Scouting is the only youth outdoor program (meaning "sports") 'Where everyone can play all of the time.'"

And that struck me for its wisdom.

Sports, driven by coaches seeking records (forgive my generalizing, as I have personal experience, twice, where coaches played every team member and still won championships), but, in my experience, "winning teams" are the one of a dozen or two teams in a league, meaning that the bulk of the participants experience the sense of loss.

I sat many games on the bench, feeling pretty worthless, having endured all the "wind sprints," and training. Benched along with many others. (And, I SHOULD have been benched, as I was pretty lame, well really worthless.) But then again, no one spent a minute coaching me. (And some few years later, I set an endurance record that may still stand to this day, having been previously written off.)

The point is that a youth can participate in the Scouting program-their "competition" is essentially their own drive. And some "select out" from the advancement regime, enjoying campouts and camaraderie, others drive through to Eagle.

And so, the joy and memories of "winning teams" is well-earned, and well-deserved, the purpose of a youth-centered organization is to encourage and uplift the masses.

One star quarterback does not uplift America. (OK, Tom Brady, but even he is a mere exciting spark in what needs to be a glacial move to change society.)

20,000 youth finding encouragement does move the needle. Two million moves the needle even more.