CalicoPenn

@@CalicoPenn is over-thinking this. Props to the Cambridge hawks!

 

What - no credit for getting in a Dr. Who reference??

So the consensus seems to be that the parents have absolutely no responsibility in this at all, is that an accurate statement? 

Yes, the son is responsible for completing the work and I don't think anyone is suggesting otherwise, is suggesting that if the son doesn't complete the work, a parent should step in and do it.  But if that's the interpretation, I think that's using a rather narrow definition of the term responsibility.

Is there no responsibility here for the parent?  Not even the responsibility of the parent to know what homework the son has and to monitor their progress?  It doesn't have to be a strict "do it or you don't go to summer camp" conversation, but surely over the course of 8 weeks, a parent can ask, even if it's just once a week, "How are you getting along on your summer reading assignment?"  Surely that's a form of responsibility as well.

If a parent has no responsibility in this at all, what else isn't a parents responsibility? 

What are we teaching our SPL's and PL's about responsibility?  We tell them they're responsible for their boys.  If a parent is not responsible for monitoring a son's homework and making sure they get it done, how can we then tell a PL that they are responsible for making sure that the members of his patrol assigned to buy food have done their jobs?  If they're following this example, why couldn't they, when they got to the campsite and had no food for the weekend, say that they gave the responsibility to do that to Scout Joe and it's Scout Joe's fault that it wasn't done.  Most of us would be having a very long talk about how it is the PL's responsibility not just to assign the task but to follow up with Scout Joe to make sure it got done.

Or is the problem here that it's a task not assigned by the parent but by the school system?  Are folks perhaps thinking the school district should be calling students in the middle of the summer to check in on them?  Let me tell you, as a taxpayer, I don't want my school district spending money on bringing staff in to make all those calls - I expect that parents should be taking some responsibility for their own children's education.  I'm known in here for my relatively liberal views on things - and I don't mind paying a bit more in taxes so kids have opportunities to do more than just learn readin', ritin' and 'rithmatic' in school - but if there truly is a trend for parents to say they aren't responsible for making sure their kids do homework, then I'll be first in line to vote for people who say they will cut my taxes by cutting all extracurriculars - sports, band, theater, after-school clubs, etc. - from the budget.

 

 

The real hard part would be wiring back to front and to keep it all looking nice!

Unless it was designed to look like an homage to the Back to the Future DeLorean.  It wouldn't have to be carved to look like a DeLorean but attach a Mr. Fusion unit, and run the wiring along the sides, and it will look just fine.  Power each LED off it's own flat battery (which, at about .80 ounces for 4 can double as weights) and you can have both front and rear lights, and add to the effect of the car.  Wanting headlights?  At this point, you're going for the cool factor - maybe winning the design trophy (if the pack has one) and not speed.

Either that or create a nano-sized stable wormhole generator with programmable exit points.

I'd say they got the chocolate bit right but I'm just not sure of the presentation. 

What kind of jelly sweets are we talking about?  Jelly Babies?  That's more of a UK Dr. Who thing (in fact, one major manufacturer of jelly babies won't let online sellers ship them to the US).  Jelly Beans?  We only obsess about them at Easter - they may have been President Reagan's favorite snack but again chocolate is still U.S. America's favorite sweet.  Gummi Bears?  Yeah, that's more of a German thing, I think.

Now let's talk Sherbet.  Sherbet in the UK and in the US refers to two entirely different things.  In the UK, my understanding is that it's some kind of fizzy confectionary powder that can be used to make things like flying saucers.  In the US, sherbet is a frozen desert, something like a sorbet or Italian ice but made with milk fat - kind of a cross between ice cream and sorbets.

But I think we can safely say they got the chocolate bit right - the top 5 favorite deserts in the US, in ascending order, are Ice Cream (and 3 of the top 10 flavors have chocolate in them), Brownies (essentially a dense, thin chocolate cake), Chocolate Chip Cookies (not surprising - it was originally created here in the US and so is considered as American as baseball and apple pie), Chocolate Cake (seeing the pattern yet?) and the #1 favorite dessert - fudge - and most fudge has a base flavor of chocolate.

Is "Chocolate Heaven" a part of our national cuisine?  No - but it would probably be welcomed here with open arms (though it might need a new name - in the US, chocolate heaven is more of a state of mind or being).

A lot of these questions should be answered before the Scout get's approval to start their project.  My opinion is that a scouts project should stand alone (which then eliminates most of these questions).

That said, if a Scout has been approved to complete a portion of a larger project, and he has completed his portion, even if the larger project has not (yet) been completed, then he should be evaluated on his portion only - as long as the beneficiary has signed off that they approve what the Scout has done, then that would meet my threshold for completion.

To answer the specific concern about the Scout's project benefitting someone if the beneficiary has not completed their part, I would disagree and say that the Scout's project has benefitted someone - it has benefitted the beneficiary.  It may be something that brings the beneficiary closer to completion of a project that they haven't the full budget for yet - the project may not be fully completed by the Scout's BOR, but that ball is not in the Scout's court, it is in the beneficiary's court - and they may be facing delay's we just wouldn't be in the know about.  Being a Scout, I'd rather look at it as the beneficiary hasn't completed their portion YET, but will in the future.

The other thing to keep in mind is that even if a Scout does a 100% separate project from anything else, and the beneficiary signs off on it, there is no guarantee that it will actually benefit anyone else, or even survive for long.   It would not surprise me for a moment to hear that a Scout created a food pantry at a church that was torn out within 6 months to expand classroom space, or that a Scout created a natural garden, complete with park benches at a local park only to have it converted to a soccer field the next year.  I'm sure these things have happened - probably more often than we want to admit.  This is probably the main reason that my number one criteria of completeness is acceptance by the beneficiary.

Other skills that people have or are forgetting: Hooking up horses to and driving the family buggy; blacking a stove; converting cubits to inches; predicting the local weather for the day; land navigation without map & compass; properly sharpening and using a scythe; converting talents to sheckels (60 shekels = 1 mina and 60 minas = 1 talent - in case anyone was curious); sending a telegram; tightening bed ropes; crank starting a car (and for that matter, cranking a car window up or down); ditching a tent (that's D for ditching, not P for pitching); backing up a computer to floppy disks; using a cigarette machine; making cedar shingles; and baking in a wood stove.

Sorry to hear that cost is an issue for this - have you approached your pack members to see if they would be willing to do this as an activity knowing there would be an extra charge (and be willing to tap in to pack funds for "scholarships" for those that truly can't afford it, as many Troops do for summer camp)?

Some clarifications here.

Sky Lanterns are NOT Chinese Lanterns - regardless of how they are being marketed and described on the internet (Wikipedia, BSA site on the official policy, etc).  Chinese Lanterns are an old (very old) tradition - they are collapsible decorative paper lanterns. 

As for sky lanterns in New York State?  I wouldn't worry about BSA policy regarding Sky Lanterns - New York State Law supercedes BSA policy and Sky Lanterns are banned in New York State and in at least 29 others (Illinois among them).  Though they may be marketed as being fun and safe, the fact is that you are releasing a flame in the air and there have been incidents where the lanterns themselves catch fire then land on buildings and or on land causing fires.  If flaming leaf litter from a mountain 12 miles away can be blamed as one of the causes of the devastating fires in Gatlinburg after Thanksgiving, then surely sky lanterns pose a similar threat.  They may be marketed as being cold out when they land, but can anyone guarantee that? 

That's it?  A bland "we met with the DE and the issue is resolved"?  No details?  Now how the heck are we supposed to know if our high dudgeon was worth it?

Age and maturity have less to do with it than the type and place of one's upbringing IMO.

 

  So in other words the problem is Texas. 

 

 

I personally like the flavor of ghost peppers, but then again half of my heritage is latino, and I am very acclimated to spices and heat in my food.

Most of my Latino co-workers won't go near ghost peppers - they look at Indians (ghost peppers come from India) who eat ghost peppers the way Swedes look at Latinos who eat chili peppers - with a look of bemusement and wonder how someone can be so crazy.

Age difference or maturity difference?

No. I'd be uncomfortable with that. Salute during the pledge is fine. Scout sign during scout oath and law is okay. But do we salute the motto? the slogan? If not those, then why the code? It's a code. Back in the day, a Scout was indeed expected to use the Scout Sign when repeating the Scout Slogan and the Scout Motto, as well as the Outdoor Code (whis is the Scout's pledge of outdoor ethics).

I am saying that the BSA should not take sides at all. I get the feeling you are taking my opinion as action for everyone. I'm am specifically talking about the BSA.

I can agree with this - its too bad the BSA has chosen sides in this situation already. They should have punted it back to the sponsoring organization to make the decision instead.

Arrows?  We don't need no stinkin arrows!

(Mostly because very few of us are too shy to challenge someone with their own posts showing disagreement or displeasure).

It's part of the requirements for earning the Scout rank - repeat the Outdoor Code from memory and explain what it mean in your own words (summarized, not quoted).

It's a Boy Scouts of America pledge - like the Scout Oath and the Scout Law.

The ultimate answer to the question though should be found in the Boy Scout Handbook since one of the requirements for the Scout rank is to explain when the Scout Sign is used - and how will the boy know that unless it's in the book.

Some online sources say it is used when giving the Scout Oath and Scout Law.  Others say it is used when reciting ideals of Scouting.  I don't have a copy of the handbook handy to check it's language.  If it says it is used for the Scout Oath and Scout Law, then if someone says it is not used for the Outdoor Code, they are technically correct.  However,  if it says it should be used when reciting the ideals (or similar words) of Scouting, then it should also include the Outdoor Code, Scout Motto and Scout Slogan.

Of course,  I would suggest that if it says it is used for the Scout Oath and Law, that this is a minimum requirement and Troops should be free to use it for the Outdoor Code, Scout Slogan and Scout Motto - after all, aren't those as important?

Sorry for the block of text - ever since I upgraded Internet Explorer, I've been having a heck of a time trying to post anything.

The Bob Cat rank (later Bobcat) didn't start until 1938 - unless the BSA releases their transcripts of development meetings, it's all speculation as to why a Bobcat was chosen, though it's fairly likely a Bobcat was chosen because it is a North American native animal, in the wolf/bear/lion theme, and Bobcat did not come out of Baden Powell's cubbing program.

There is a bit of misinformation in this thread so perhaps a summary of the history of Cub Scouts in the BSA might help.

In 1916, Baden-Powell wrote the book on Cubbing for England's Boy Scout program - he was friends with Kipling and got permission to adapt a lot of Kipling's characters. His cubbing program didn't officially cross the pond though some individuals tried setting up cubbing programs based on his program without a lot of success since it didn't have BSA backing. James West was opposed to cubbing because he thought it would take adult leaders away from Boy Scouts.

In 1930, the BSA introduced the official Cub Scout program - while they used BP's ideas, they did adapt quite a few of them to meet American sensibilities. Why use Jungle Book when you had American Indians? Akela was no longer the great wolf. He was now the Chief of the Indian Tribe named Webelos (Wolf, Bear, Lion, Scouts) and symbolized by the Arrow of Light. All members of the Pack were part of the Webelos tribe - at the time, it wasn't a rank.

Cub Scouting was an age-based program - for 9-11 year old boys (Wolf 9, Bear 10 and Lion 11). It wouldn't be until 1949 that the age levels would drop to 8-10 for Cub Scouts and 11-18 for Boy Scouts.

Bobcat was not introduced until 1938. In 1941, the Webelos award was created - it was the highest rank a Cub could earn and could only be earned by Lion Scouts after they reached 11 1/2 years old. The award looked remarkably similar to the Arrow of Light (foreshadow alert).

In 1967, Lion was dropped and the Webelos Award became the Webelos Rank - it used the same Arrow of Light design and kept the Webelos award requirements but added activity pin requirements to earn the rank.

Then came 1972 - remember that foreshadow alert? in 1972, the Webelos rank was renamed - we now know it as the Arrow of Light. If you earned the Webelos award or rank prior to 1972, you can wear the Arrow of Light knot on your uniform. This also dropped the rank of Webelos for a period of time.

In 1977, a new Webelos rank was created, with a diamond rank patch to match the other ranks.

It wasn't until 1986, when Cub Scouts changed from an aged-based program to a grade-based program that Webelos changed from a one year program to a two year program. Tiger became the 1st grade program, and the other ranks followed: Wolf grade 2, Bear grade 3, Webelos 1 grade 4 and Webelos 2 grade 5 - the BSA was not about to change the BSA joining requirement of completing 5th grade. Of course, it would probably have made more sense if they had reintroduced Lion as the 4th grade program back in 1986 but thats the BSA for you.

I use "The rabbit goes up the hole, around the tree and back through the hole" method. Not that I ever use a bowline.

What about bigotry, discrimination, hatred and violence CAUSED by religion or belief?

Is your COR or the head of your sponsoring organization aware of this request and meeting?  If not, make sure they get up to speed - and then invite them to the meeting - where, when they DE (or whatever his title is) tells you that you need to give your fundraiser to another unit, the IH or COR politely tells him to go pound sand and to never, ever interfere with the operations of the unit again.

The only way this guy can take your fundraiser is if you let him - and you just don't let him - if he insists, you go over his head to his boss - the Scout Executive, by e-mail, with a copy to the Council President.

So if your unit was running a successful Christmas Tree Sale for a number of years and some yahoo at the district level decided another Troop should do it instead, you would be ok with it?  What are you, some kind of communist? (  )

If another unit decided to start their own tree sale independently, I wouldn't picket it - but if my unit's tree sale was hijacked and stolen, not only would I picket it, I'd make sure it was front page news.

Noah,

Eagle Mentor is not an official position in the Boy Scouts of America.  It is simply someone who has helped you along the path to Eagle.  You Eagle Coordinator should be helping you negotiate the paperwork - if that person wants to assign someone from the Troop for that task and call that person a mentor, just accept that persons help. 

In the meantime, there is nothing that anyone (except your parents) can do to prevent you from seeking the advice and assistance of Mrs. P, or any other adult.  At the end of your journey, you can hand out multiple mentor pins if you want (though your Troop may only pay for one, if they pay for any at all - you can buy them yourself from the Scout Shop).  If you have your Court of Honor at the church, you'll probably have to give Mrs. P. her pin privately.  When you do finish your journey, think seriously about who you might want to give an Eagle mentor pin to - I've seen Scouts give them just to the person who helped negotiate the process.  The more moving ones I've seen are Scouts that call up the Cub Scout Den Leaders (from Tiger to Webelos), their Scoutmaster(s), teachers and religious leaders that are particularly meaningful, they're parents, a sibling, in one ceremony, even an older Scout who helped a long the way.  I've seen Scouts give out one pin and Scouts that have given out 10 pins. 

If you have a conversation with the pastor, keep it polite and listen to their position - but I don't see a need to even have that conversation - nothing is going to be resolved by it.  He's just going to re-iterate that Mrs. P. is no longer involved with the unit and nothing is going to change his mind.  I'f you haven't met already, I would cancel the meeting.

Questions:  How long has your Troop been selling Christmas Trees?  Do you have a base of people who buy from you every year because they are supporting your Troop?

How active are you in the District (attending events, supplying volunteers, etc.)?

How old and successful is your Troop?

I'm guessing that during the process of applying for the permit, someone in the District (Council) decided they should do it instead and that is the basis of your questions.

I'm asking the questions to make a point - a lot of the answer depends on how much perceived leverage you have.  If you're a Troop of 60 boys, with a history of holding successful tree sales that the people in the community support, that is active in the District and that has a history of producing Eagle Scouts, then a call from the Institutional Head to the Scout Executive can nip this in the bud in a minute - the Institutional Head simply tells the Scout Executive to back off, sign the application and don't even think of competing with the Troop's tree sales or the charter will be canceled, and there will be a front page news article telling the community exactly why the unit is no folding after so many years.

If you don't have that kind of perceived leverage, then either ignore the unit money earning application altogether, or have your sponsoring organization hold the sale as a fundraiser for their youth programs,

I'd also contact your tree vendor and let them know how disappointed you would be in them if they were to sell their trees to the district/council instead.

And if the District/Council succeeds in pulling your fundraiser in as their own, I would have as many boys and their parents that would volunteer for it, stand just outside the entrance to their lot (and on public property/public easements - and out of uniform) holding up signs telling people not to buy their trees from that lot because they stole your Troop's fundraiser.

Hooray!!!!!!!!

Billy Scout asks SM for SMC before the meeting starts.  The Scoutmaster will hold the SMC during the meeting (no reason for the Scoutmaster not to do so, he's not running the meeting, the SPL is).

Once the SMC is completed, the Scoutmaster informs the Advancement Chair that a BOR for Billy Scout is needed at the next Troop meeting and the Advancement Chair arranges for the BOR to be there.  the BOR is done during the meeting (may as well, the committee members are running the meeting, the SPL is - they have plenty of time during the meeting to do so).

Why doesn't the Scout ask the Advancement Chair of the BOR?  Because it's not his responsibility - the Scoutmaster is the bridge between the Scouts and the Commitee - and the Scoutmaster asking verifies to the AC that the lad is ready for the BOR.

 

I fully agree with the ideal.  And, many scouts do develop life long hobbies or new professions or just have their eyes opened up to new things.  

 

The trouble is the mix.  

• too many lame MB programs
• too many MB programs where the MB content is way less than the scout's life or school experiences
• too many MB programs that just have no added value to the scout and leave the scout with a "that was a waste" attitude.  

Every one of my sons has had experiences with MBs that were just bad or beyond bad.  I'm often the driver and sitting in the back of the room.  I've finally developed enough trust with my sons that if they look back at me with an expression that it's a waste, we leave.  My son went to a computer MB session two Decembers ago. He really wanted to learn something.  It was bad ... even from my view.  Same with my sons attending dentistry and crime prevention.  The presenter didn't know anything special and was not even experienced in the topics.  We left.  

 

I really think the MB program can be great when it is the right match and done well.  ... AND every scout has their favorite badge that they are glad they did it.  But it's 2 bad for every one good or even worse.  

 

A great example is the citizen merit badges.  For a inexperienced 11 year old, they may be good.  But for a seventeen year old who is academically average, they are lame and way less than they learned in school.

 

Seems to me the trouble is "Merit Badge Program".  Sounds like your son is attending Merit Badge "classes" - doing that will suck the fun out of any merit badge.

Merit Badges were designed to be done individually, with individual counselors (those these days, up to two people working together is de-riguer).  They were not designed to be done in a group, classroom setting - not at summer camp, not at merit badge universities, not at merit badge programs, not at Troop meetings.  It's way beyond time to go back to doing it the old-fashioned way - a Scout chooses a merit badge he's interested in, contacts the counselor, does the work, and reviews it with the counselor.  Not this scout goes to a class with 20 other Scouts and sits through 3 hours of lecture.  Individual attention can work at summer camp too - a Counselor may have 10 scouts for fishing merit badge and might hold "office hours" at a set time to meet, but the Scouts still would do the work individually.