CalicoPenn

"In my mythical idea of heaven, one can see just past St. Peter (who is a stunning transexual) . . ." Will drag queen do? I can picture RuPaul as St. Peter, but I've yet to meet a transexual as stunning as RuPaul. Calico

"And I wonder how all those physicists & scientists & other intelligent people became so intelligent?" Evolution.

Or Gold Winger could refer to someone who rides a particular branded motorcycle, in which case he knows as much about aviation as anyone else on the board. I actually thought Merlyn's question was pretty good as I'm under the impression that physicists are pretty much in agreement on how thrust and lift keep heavy metal planes in the air. Calico

Once your district gets one or two of these events under their belt, get creative. At one first aid meet, halfway in to a long, complicated scenario, the meet was interrupted with an announcement that while the Patrol was working on the victim (of a rockslide), another rock came lose and hit the Patrol Leader (who was usually the person doing most of the first aid anyway) in the head, knocking him out and putting a gash in his head. At the point, the patrols Patrol Leader could no longer participate and had to act as another victim - and couldn't help or tell anyone else what needed to be done - remember the "if the victim helps, lose 20 points" I suggested? Comes in to play here. And the patrol couldn't subsitute anyone else for the Patrol Leader as victim - the victim had to be the lad that was acting as the Patrol Leader of the patrol during the event, and more particularly, during the scenario (some of the units would have a different person act as patrol leader for each scenario). At another event, a phone tech savvy person rigged up a couple of payphones (real payphones - on loan from the phone company) to ring phones in another room when the 911 was dialed on the phone. At random times during the scenarios, an index card would be handed to the patrol leader directing them to send one Scout to one of the pay phones to make an emergency call with information on the card - the Scout couldn't take the card with them, and they were given just enough time to read the card and take quick notes. When the scout dialed 911, they talked to a real dispatcher (a couple of dispatchers from the local fire department volunteered their time). By the end of the meet, each patrol had taken part and their scores from this were added to their overall scores. The district once set up a first aid meet where the patrols would walk through a neighborhood finding 5 scenarios taking place in peoples homes - complete with realistic make-up, that they had to complete. The patrols only spent an hour doing all 5 scenarios - including walking from house to house. The meet was limited to 30 patrols - and 5 at a time went through the course - the meet took place over 6+ hours (there was a couple of breaks for lunch, etc.) and went pretty well but the logisitics turned out to be more than the nightmare it was expected to be. I always wanted to put together a meet with one scenario - a school bus accident with numerous injuries, but there just wasn't enough time in a day to be able to run one patrol through the scenario at a time. Calico

I've always subscribed to the belief that man created god(s) as a way to explain the mysteries of what man did not understand. It seems to me the conflict over creationism, or intelligent design versus evolutionary and cosmic theory comes about because as we, as a species, start to understand more and more about our existence, about our planet and universe, our need for god(s) to explain the mysteries decreases (less mysteries equals less god(s)), and that the two big mysteries left is "How did the universe and humanity come into existence" and "What is the purpose of life", and that this conflict is about who is going to provide those answers. One question I've never gotten a satisfactory answer to is "If God created the universe, who created God?" I've had people tell me that the Big Bang can be explained as God creating the Universe - but no one has been able to tell me how God came into existence before the Universe did so God could create the universe. Is it not illogical to believe that the Universe could not spontaneously begin without the help of an outside force (such as God) while believing that God could spontaneously appear without the help of an outside force? Is it not possible that if we discover the answer of how God was created, we may discover the answer to everything? It's good to have some mystery in life, but I've come to the conclusion, for me personally at least, that religion and spirituality should concentrate on the "What is the meaning of Life" question above all others. It may be the only question (Douglas Adams not withstanding)that will never have a satisfactory scientific answer. Calico

As I'm reading through this thread, it occurs to me that one of the Give Meds/Do Not Give Meds dividing lines is WFA/WFR and non-WFA/WFR training, and it seems to point to a challenge to WFA/WFR instructors to do a much better job in defining when wilderness first aid skills are appropriate to be used. I became W-EMT certified in the 1980's, back when I was going to school in Maine. The state has large swaths of true wilderness - miles away from an evacuation point, multiple (over 100 or so) miles from the nearest trauma center so it becomes much easier to conceptualize the meaning of wilderness in comparison to someplace like Illinois where most of the state is one giant evacuation point, and most of the population is within minutes of professionally trained help. One thing that was stressed in my course was that just because we have now learned these "new" skills (I knew 3/4 of them just from reading the Boy Scout Field Book), doesn't mean we had license to use those skills in any situation we found ourselves in. As I've stated elsewhere - in the vast majority of the cases, we do not find ourselves in a true wilderness emergency. Just because we're out camping in the woods at a scout camp, or state park, does not mean we are in the wilderness, and wilderness first aid training is overkill for the situation. Red Cross Standard First Aid (which doesn't teach that giving out meds is an appropriate treatment for anything) is sufficient for these times. Unfortunately, WFA training doesn't always impart the judgement one needs to determine when not to cross that line to the more "advanced" first aid one might do in the field. I'm sad to say that I see the "Super First Aider" phenomenon (people who have Red Cross First Aid or Wilderness First Aid certs refusing to give up care to licensed care providers, providing care they shouldn't because they think they know things beyond their training, or even worse, trying to take over/overrule care) among Boy Scout leaders more often than among non-Boy Scout leaders (probably because, well, we're Boy Scouts - that's what we are - prepared to help other people). I'm truly starting to think it might actually be counterproductive for the BSA to start pushing WFA training as opposed to standard first aid training on Scout Leaders since those skills aren't really going to be needed in 99% of the cases we'll be involved in. It might be appropriate for a leader (or older youth) to have that training for a wilderness high adventure trip - but you don't need it for a trip to Summer Camp. Do Scout Leaders in Illinois really need WFA training? In reality, except for possibly some pockets in Southern Illinois (and even then it's doubtful), WFA techniques should never be neccessary, and that holds true for pretty much most of the rest of the country as well. Calico

Depends on how fancy you want to get - since its a first time event, you might want to be pretty basic. Here's what I've done in the past - as a basic district wide event: 1) Line up a place to hold it - usually a school or church gym, or community center. You need a place big enough to hold the number of patrols (I'll use this term with the understanding that it also means dens and crews) you think will be attending. 2) Set up your problems - we used 5 different scenarios - in story form please - each slightly more difficult than the previous one. If you're going to do three levels, I would put together 15 scenarios - 5 for the Webelos, 5 for the Boy Scouts, 5 for the Venturers - appropriate to their level. A good way of doing this for a basic event is to write down the scenario on one page, then write the scenario and answer key (very important to have an answer key) on a second page. Part of the scenario is to introduce a time limit - the more difficult the task, the longer the time to complete (I'll share my trick question at the end). To keep things flowing smoothly, keep the timing the same at all three levels - the first scenario to be finished in 5 minutes - etc up to the 5th scenario (no more than 20 minutes would be good). 3) Set up your physical space - We set up a uniform size area on the gym floor for all of the patrols in attendance - they all were in the room at the same time - don't forget to leave some walking around space between the patrol spots. I always found it more efficient for the judges to move from patrol to patrol than for the patrols to move from judge to judge. 4A) Ahh, judges! Where to get them? We always made it a mandatory part of the participation entry that each patrol was required to contribute one judge - that way you will have a judge for each patrol, and won't have to go through brain damage trying to find, say, 25 judges for 25 patrols. This is the time for the units/patrols to step up to the plate. Here's the beauty part - no real experience is neccessary - because everyone will have an answer key! As the Scouts are settling into their digs, have a judge's meeting in a different room. At the judge's meeting, go over the general plan for the event, then split up into your respective levels and have a "head judge" of each level (a District volunteer of course, who you met with a few days before to go over their areas scenarios and answers)go briefly through the scenarios and answers, and judging sheet (don't forget those - we used one sheet per scenario - point based - number of points based on what was correctly done from the answer key - you'll have to determine the points) - answering questions of the judges before the start of the event. Assign the judges to an initial patrol (if the patrol is from their own unit, they need to switch with another judge - but - no one should judge the same patrol twice if it can be avoided. 4B) Ahhh - Victims. Where to get? Each patrol had to supply their own victim (if you have a multiple victim - suggest no more than two - scenario, they have to supply 2) - usually a younger brother or sister, or maybe a senior scout/troop guide (who must keep quiet - points get taken away by the judge if the victim tells the patrol how to do something - and put that on the form at the bottom and set the penalty high - 20 points - and make sure the patrol and victims know there is a penalty for the victim helping). 5) To start a scenario - the judge gives the patrol leader the scenario sheet, and 2 minutes are given for the patrol to read the scenario and start discussing what to do - the judges need to remain silent. Use a whistle system and explain it at the outset. 1 blast means reading period. After 2 minutes, 2 blasts mean start. 3 blasts mean stop. The judges take a few minutes to look over the work, fill out the score sheet (don't forget the patrol names and troop numbers), review with the patrol, have disputes settled (if there are any), then a runner comes by and collects all the score sheets (so the volunteer scorers you've arranged can start filling out a spreadsheet with the scores while the next scenario begins - at the end of the last scenario, the patrols can clean up while the scorers enter just the scores for the last scenario - and by the time the clean up is done, the awards can be handed out). 6) The judge moves over to the next space, while the patrol cleans up and prepares for the next scenario - again, if a judge ends up at a patrol from his own unit, he needs to find someone to switch with. Then, do the read, start, stop thing again. Repeat until all the scenarios are done. 7) A note on supplies - not only does the patrol need to supply a judge, they need to bring their own set of supplies. We always set up the scenarios so that they could be done with the suggested supplies in a troop first aid kit (see various scouting books on suggested first aid kits). We always found it prudent to provide the units with the list of suggested supplies in advance of the event so they could get it together if need be. You don't have to use everything in the kit - and it should be made clear that the patrols shouldn't use the units actual first aid kits, but should make up a kit just for the event (so no one "forgets" to restock the unit first aid kit after the event). We always tried to be somewhat reasonable, though - if we knew none of the scenarios would require an expensive supply that might otherwise be found in a unit first aid kit, we made sure to strike through it as something they should be prepared to bring. Whatever isn't used can go into a box for restocking the unit kit, or to hold for the next year. If you're going to include a splinting scenario, or a scenario requiring triangular bandages, or making a stretcher out of poles and blankets, make sure you put that on the list of things to bring - but I suggest only doing so if you're actually going to have the patrols use it. Thats a basic outline of a First Aid O-Ree. Don't forget to reward the judges and victims with a little something - we usually gave them the patch that the lads would get for participating. Check with the Red Cross in your area for any fun little films that you could show just before the meet (during the judges meeting) or after (just before handing out the awards). Now I promised my trick question. Your scenarios can be as simple as 5 year old Sam pulled a pot of boiling water off the stove burning his hand and arm - you have 5 minutes to treat - and go! to a long drawn out "you're with your patrol 10 miles in on a 20 mile hike into the backwoods of Wisconsin when you hear a woman screaming for help. You locate the woman and learn that her husband was climbing a tree to get his bearings when he slipped and fell, landing at the bottom of the tree. He is unconscious, with what appears to be a broken leg, a broken arm, blood coming from a large gash on the back of his head.... (you get the picture) - you have 20 minutes to treat and prepare to evacuate - GO! (not forgetting in your answer key that there are two victims here - the panicing woman who may be going into shock). Anyway - to my trick question - we always tried to get the lads to remember their surroundings. We had one scenario where the patrol was walking through their suburban neighborhood on the way to the park to play a bit of frisbee golf when they saw and heard a horrible car crash - they ran to the scene to see if they could help. We described a number of injuries then ended with: The cars were not in any danger of catching fire, the paramedics were less than 4 minutes away. You have 15 minutes to treat - Go!. The correct answer for full credit was - Call 911, and do nothing more than comfort the victims and try to keep people away from the scene. Doing nothing at all was also acceptable (Makes the assumption that the ambulance was on its way). Treating for shock (and nothing else) was worth 80 points. Anything more than that was worth 20 points (for calling 911 or treating for shock) Why? The ambulance is less than 4 minutes away, and you're doing first aid - in some cases, first aid means no aid - as doing anything can just cause the paramedics to have to spend more time undoing what you've done before they can start assessing the injuries. We only had two patrols get this completely right (and one, admittedly, was a Webelos den that was so overwhelmed by the question they didn't do a thing (it was one of the two advanced questions of the day - they didn't complete the 2nd one either - we hadn't expected a Webelos den to participate back them but one Webelos leader wanted to give his boys the opportunity - who were we to say no)). We didn't do this question blind, of course. We made it a point to remind the Scoutmasters to prepare their lads for a scenario where the paramedics might be just around the corner. Though a couple of Scoutmasters were upset about it at first, they came around pretty quickly when they realized that the first aid meet was about more than just testing the skills, it was also about testing the lads judgement - and that they had to do a little better about teaching more than just the hands-on skills (and that they were given ample warning that such a questions was not only possible, but likely). Anyway, that's my book on the subject - hope it helps. Calico PS - that Webelos Den came in 11th out of 28 if I remember correctly - even though they got very few points at all on one of the questions.

Little Johnny comes to you complaining of pains in his stomach. You give him an acetaminophen tablet, and the pain goes away. A couple of hours later, Johnny collapses, and is out like a light. You can't get him to respond and rush him to the hospital, where it's discovered he has a nasty little case of appendicitis and needs emergency surgery now, before it bursts. Why wasn't it discovered before? The acetaminophin masked the pain. Bobby falls off a log while on a day hike then complains his arm hurts and asks for a pain killer. You give him ibuprofen and the pain goes away. That night, his arm swells up to twice its size - Mom brings him to the emergency room in a panic where it's discovered Bobby has a green stick fracture of the radius which was probably the result of the fall off the log. Why wasn't it discovered before? The ibuprofen not only masked the pain but also acted like the anti-inflammatory it is and helped prevent the swelling until it started wearing out. How did this happen? An untrained person, or a person not following the standards of their licensing, gave a "harmless" OTC medicine that masked a symptom of a serious medical issue. Pain is not, in and of itself, a condition to be treated - Pain is a symptom of other conditions that need to be treated - and it is also useful for a diagnostician to try to determine the underlying cause. It's not that uncommon for emergency room doctors to keep someone under observation for a while to allow for OTC pain meds to wear off so they can "find out where it hurts". The lesson is to be very cautious when tempted to give someone other than yourself (or family member) an OTC Medication, even if its counterintuitive to you because of your own experiences. 99+% of the time, we aren't somewhere where we face a 12 hour trek just to get somewhere where we can be evacuated. If you're at a weekend away and Billy starts complaining about hayfever acting up, or migraines, or a case of the screaming trots, and he brought no meds along with him, you would be wise to consider contacting his parents to either bring him up some meds, or take him home. You may not want to do that because it will spoil his weekend, but those are the kinds of decisions that we, as adults, have to make all the time - unpopular as it may be. Calico

It's only appropriate that Scouts pay serious attention to a religion founded by an Eagle Scout - though given a choice between the two religions founded by Eagle Scouts, I'll go with Pastafarianism. Calico

There is a snipe that is native to North America. Gallingo delicate, aka Wilson's Snipe, is a shorebird that is mostly found in wetlands. It is somewhat similar to the American Woodcock, though it is a bit taller and slimmer. There are states in this country that have hunting seasons for Wilson's Snipe.

I really hate the plastic sleeves - reminds me of the plastic coverings some people put on their upholstery to prevent stains - turns perfectly good looking and functional furniture into tacky looking furniture people are afraid to sit in for fear of denting the plastic. But that's just my opinion. Calico

There are many people who think it is a tradition that the sash should never be cleaned because a dirty sash shows the amount of service one has performed. Of course, most people don't wear their sashes when actually performing service - my Lodge forbids it - it's considered loose clothing and could be a danger to the Scouts when they're doing physical labor on a service project. Then there are those of us who have experience seeing a newly washed sash take on a pinkish tinge as the dye in the embroidery thread used to create the arrow on the sash (the thread isn't washed after dying and before being applied to the sash)and recommend that thought and care be given before washing the sash - Cold or warm water only please, don't wash with the white clothes - wash with dark clothes - that will help set the dye in the thread for future washes. Just remember - after this past weekend, the sash will never be pristine white again. And that's ok. At the same time, it doesn't have to be a mud and food splattered mess of a sach either. Hopefully you've found the other thread that Msnowman resurrected. There's a lot of experience and advice given there - and many of us subscribe to the two-sash method - one sash for everyday wear, and one sash for special occassions/public wear where we want to look our best. Unless you son is going to become part of an election team right away, my advice is that you consider washing this sash (make sure he's brushed off as much dirt as possible - unless it was muddy which left a stain, just dropping it in the dirt shouldn't have ground any dirt into the sash to justify being washed anyway) and consider the two sash method once he becomes a Brotherhood Member, which he can do in 10 months (if the lodge has made the opportunity available next March - though it's likely the next opportunity your son can take advantage of is next May). Calico

WildernesStudent asks for advice in another thread on what kind of first aid kit to but, hinting that her outdoor club has decided to buy a big one for the upcoming year. Please chime in with your thoughts. In the meantime, here's mine: With first aid kits, bigger is not neccessarily better. First aid kits should be chosen with an eye to the expected use, activities, location, number of people, etc. A personal first aid kit may be all that's needed for one person, but not appropriate for a 6 person crew. By the same token, a larger fist aid kit thats good for 6 to 10 people is probably not needed for just one person. Buy too large of a first aid kit and you'll eventually stop carrying it because its just not convenient to do so. If your doing mainly day and weekend overnights, a $100 or more "expedition" kit is probably too much. One respected "manufacturer" of outdoor first aid kits is Adventure Medical Kits. Their kits are available at REI and most other outdoors stores. Check out the sporting goods stores too, in their camping section. They may have something as well. My suggestion, though, is to go and look at the first aid kits that are out there, and compare them before buying. Adbenture Medical kits have some great stuff in them, but also have a lot of questionable stuff in them - especially for groups. One of the things they're heavy with is various OTC medicines - ibuprofens, acetemenophines, and the like, in double pill packets - and that's fine for families or individuals, but I wouldn't recommend that a group supply OTC meds to it's members - if you have memebrs that are prone to headaches or pains, they should be encouraged to bring their own - and if they share, that's up to the individuals involved. Your providing first aid, and that should never include the dispensing of any kind of drugs - even asprin. Also, don't rely on the recommended number of people the kit can be used for to make your decisions - those numbers are, frankly, a bit arbitrary. For instance, a kit may be called aq 5-person kit because it contains 5 "bandaids" of one size. That same kit can be used for 10 people just as well - how often will you have five or more people needing a bandaid? Remember, its a first aid kit. Here's what I would do - if I'm going to spend $60 on a first aid kit, I'd rather build it myself. One thing you can do is go on to the Adeventure Medical Kits website and look at the supply lists for their different kits. Discount the drugs right away and look at the first aid supplies. Another source for first aid supply lists would be the Boy Scout Handbook. Write down the supplies you think you need, such as gauze rolls, gauze pads, bandaids, etc. etcc. in the quantities you think would be sufficient (use the AMK supply lists as a guide, and adjust accordingly). Go out and buy an inexpensive carrying bag, head to CVS or Walgreens and but the supplies, put them into the carrying bag, and viola - you have your first aid kit. If you still want to buy a kit, check out the Adventure Medical Kit "Weekender" - cost is $60. The dispose of the drugs. Calico

Wild - I'm going to spin off the question on first aid kits to try to get a discussion going there. Calico

Sounds like the veterans are thinking about the "backwards flags" sometimes used on military uniforms and conflating that with a war time display of the flag.

So that's how we're going to play this one out, it is? I'll see your Zyzzyva (a tropical American weevil) and raise you Zyzzyx (the name of a road in Nevada - yes, it's the name of a real road - not just the name of a movie about a road named Zyzzyx). Calico

Yeah, unfortunately for most lawyers, they're always going to face what I call "The Shark Problem". There are about 350 species of sharks. Most don't pose a danger to people. Yet because of a few species of sharks, such as white, tiger, bull, hammerhead, mako, and maybe about 7 or 8 more, that have proven to be dangerous to man, ALL sharks get the reputation of being dangerous. Such is the stereotype of sharks, and such is the stereotype of lawyers. Calico

I sometimes feel as if I've had the last word on a lot of threads in the past - but not taking it in a negative way. More like a feeling that I'm somehow a line of borax poured around the foundation of a house to prevent ants from getting any farther than the line. Calico

I was all ready to agree with everything Beavah mentioned - the APL is not a troop position, and only troop positions qualify as POR's (btw - Patrol Quartermaster, Patrol Scribe, etc. don't qualify as POR's either - only Troop QM, Troop Scribe, etc. do). Then he said "And if a Librarian or Bugler really don't need to show anywhere near the responsibility of a PL, they should not be recognized for those positions." Librarian and Bugler are listed POR's. IF your Unit has appointed a Librarian or a Bugler, then they get recognized for their time in a POR, just like every other POR - even if they aren't as heavy on the responsibilities as say, a Patrol Leader. Note the capitalized IF. I don't toally disagree with Beavah on this either - just his approach. If I understand the intent and spirit of what he's saying (and I know he'll correct me if I'm off base), then if there is a concern about a "light duty POR" in the unit, simply don't appoint someone as a Librarian, or Bugler, or Historian, or you get the picture. Just because the POR is listed, doesn't mean you have to make sure they're all filled. Some units simply don't need a Librarian, or a Bugler (though I would suggest any unit of at least 40 boys would be wise to have a Librarian - and that position wouldn't be "light duty" in an Troop of 40 active, merit badge earning boys). Just remember though, once you make the appointment, it counts towards POR time in rank. If you don't want a listed POR to count, don't appoint someone to it. Calico Calico

Maybe when Lawyers start telling idiots that stand on the top rung of a ladder then fall off and break a bone that they are idiots, instead of blaming ladder manufacturers for not clearly stating that the top rung of a ladder is not for standing on, Lawyers will get more respect. Maybe when Lawyers tell potential clients that, "No, it is NOT your neighbors fault that your allergies are acting up just because he doesn't remove the dandelions from his yard - now go away and stop being so stupid", Lawyers will get more respect. Maybe if Lawyers drag Lawyers who sue dry cleaners for millions because the dry cleaners lost a pair of pants into the woods to beat him bloody and stupid for bringing such disrespect to the profession, Lawyers will get more respect. Until that time, to borrow a phrase: "Lawyer, heal thyself". Calico

You could modify the flint and steel event. Instead of timing the Patrol on how fast it gets a fire started (and a string burnt through??), time them on how fast it takes them to prepare and get the tinder started. It could be done over an open metal pan of some kind. Here's what I would do - provide each patrol with an equal length and width of rope - hemp rope - not cotton or polyester. Maybe 12". The patrol should cut the rope into tinder size (like perhaps 3 lengths at 4" - but let them make that choice) then pull it apart to make their tinder. Then use the flint and steel to get the tinder started - time ends when the tinder is fully consumed. As for the OA Campfire, I'd suggest using short torches set where the campfire(s)would be - how about 3 sets of 3 torches, set up in a triangular pattern (both the individual sets and the sets as whole). I'm thinking they should be no more than 1/2 the length of the regular torches (I'm presuming the Chapter uses torches to help guide folks in and create a ceremony area) and no less than 1/4 the length. That might work out well. Calico

I guess in my long winded reply, my source got lost. It is the Insignia Guide, under the Special Regulations section - Two Badges with the Same Meaning. In our Council, that clause is interpreted to include Den Chief Cords and Den Chief Badges, which mean the same thing - that one is a Den Chief.

I went ahead and answered the post my-post questions in the thread that Beavah was kind enough to spin off. I did want to say, though, that I was a little surprised - I figured I'd get much more grief for stating that my Vigil Honor tops my Eagle as the best award I received in the BSA. CP

As I am the one that opined in the first place, it makes sense that I state my reasoning, and where it comes from. I was about to do so in the other thread but as Beavah has been kind enough to spin it off, I'll do so here, along with the clarification that was asked of me. First the clarification - I stated that the Den Chief Cord should not be worn with the Den Chief Badge and was asked if that meant that the Den Chief Cord shouldn't be worn. The answer is no, that is not what I said or meant. What I said and meant was that the Den Chief Cord shouldn't be worn when the Den Chief is also wearing the Den Chief badge of office. It should be worn when the Den Chief is wearing another POR badge, or it could be worn instead of wearing the Den Chief Badge (though its hard to wear a trained badge under a blank spot on a uniform sleeve). Now for the exception - the Den Chief Service Award cord is not a Den Chief Cord - it is an award (and the only award that is in cord form, as far as I know). The DCSA cord would be worn with the Den Chief Badge, with the Den Chief Chord, or without either as it is an award that can be worn right up to a Scouts 18th birthday, even if the lad is no longer a Den Chief (and if there is any thought to an additional youth award that deserves a knot, I nominate the Den Chief Service Award - and propose that as the colors of the DCSA are Red, White and Blue, and those colors are already claimed by the Eagle Award knot, that a DCSA knot be an overhand knot, like the District Award of Merit). My opinion about not wearing both the DC badge and the DC cord at the same time comes from a common interpretation (at least in my neck of the woods) of the Insignia Guide - in particular, the Two Badges with the Same Meaning clause, that states that if one has two badges that mean the same thing, one only wears one or the other, not both at the same time. Now many will argue that this applies only to square knots and medals because those are specifically mentioned in that clause; however, in my council, and as far as I can tell, in the neighboring councils, the interpretation is that the Knot/Medal statement is an example, not a definitive limitation, and does not limit the clause just to Knots/Medals but also applies in other cases as well, and does not apply to adults only but also applies to youth. So, given that interpretation, the Two Badges That Mean The Same Thing clause (which can be found in the insignia guide) will also apply to a Scout wearing an Eagle Rank Badge and an Eagle Medal, as they mean the same thing, and would apply to the Den Chief Cord and the Den Chief Badge, because they mean the same thing. Does that mean I will march up to a Den Chief who is wearing both and tell him he can't do that, or to his Scoutmaster and tell him he can't let his Den Chief (or Eagle Scout) do that? Heck no - I'm not going to play Uniform Cop. Instead, I'll just smile and ask the Scout what his favorite part of being a Den Chief is. Why? Because frankly, thats much more important than making sure people are wearing their "steenkin patches" right. That doesn't mean, however, that we shouldn't at least answer the question with the most proper information we know. Calico Edited to make a should read shouldn't (This message has been edited by CalicoPenn)

I'm sorry to see Margaret go. I hope she's still at least lurking in hopes of getting an answer to her question. First off Margret - congrats to your son on being elected as Patrol Leader. That's an important position in the Troop(one of the most important, in my opinion) so your son should wear his Patrol Leader badge on his uniform. Now the simple answer to your question is "No, he can only wear one POR badge at a time on the uniform). (All that folderol about the Musician badge can be ignored - unless his Troop has put together its own little band, it's not even something to think about). Now in most cases, when a Scout is holding two Positions of Responsibility, he should wear the most important position badge - for instance if your son was Patrol Leader and Scribe, he should wear the Patrol Leader badge. However, the BSA recognizes that the most common second POR that a Scout may hold at the same time is Den Chief, just like your son. It isn't unusual at all for a Den Chief to also serve another POR in his Troop. The BSA also recognizes that Den Chief is also a very important position in a Troop. Den Chief is a key recruiter for Cub Scout (Webelos) to Boy Scout crossover. The BSA learned years ago that a Cub Scout who had a Den Chief is more likely to crossover to Boy Scouts than a Cub Scout who didn't have a Den Chief. To make matters more interesting, Den Chief is a very rare position in Scouting as it is both a POR in a Troop and a leadership position in a Pack (although your son won't be registered in the Pack). To recognize this, the BSA has created a Den Chief POR badge (usually handed out by the Troop) and a Den Chief Cord (usually handed out by the Pack - Blue and Gold for a Cub Den Chief and Red, Blue and Gold for a Webelos Den Chief). The Den Chief Cord isn't worn when the Den Chief POR badge is worn. BUT - the Den Chief Cord CAN be worn, and SHOULD be worn, when a Scout is sporting another POR badge (like Patrol Leader) on his uniform. So, because your son is a Patrol Leader and a Den Chief, there is a way he can wear something to indicate that he's doing these two important jobs. The Patrol Leader POR and the Den Chief cord. If he doesn't have a Den Chief cord, ask the Pack to get him one (or the Troop if the Pack can't afford it). What's neat is that Den Chief is the ONLY POR that can be recognized on a uniform with another POR. And there is a real good reason for that too - imagine a 9 year old Cub Scout looking at his Den Chiefs uniform and seeing a patch on it that say's Patrol Leader - he's going to ask "What is that?" (warn your son to have an answer) - it really adds to the "WOW" factor of Boy Scouts. Now if I haven't bored you yet, may I suggest that your son talk to the Den Leader or Cubmaster he works with to find out what he would need to do to earn the Den Chief Service Award? This is a Red, White and Blue cord similar to the Den Chief cords, which can be worn with the Den Chief cord as long as your son is still an active Den Chief, and then can be worn until he turns 18 even if he is no longer a Den Chief (and no longer wears the Den Chief Cord). I was a Den Chief for 7 years - of all the awards I earned or had bestowed upon me in Scouting (including awards received as an adult), only two awards top the Den Chief Service Award I earned - Vigil Honor of the OA and Eagle Scout (in that order BTW) Hope this answers your question. Calico