malraux

2 minutes ago, Sniktaw said:

Wait...Did Mormon just become a bad word in general, or only in connection to Boy Scouts?

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/style-guide

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• When a shortened reference is needed, the terms "the Church" or the "Church of Jesus Christ" are encouraged. The "restored Church of Jesus Christ" is also accurate and encouraged.
• While the term "Mormon Church" has long been publicly applied to the Church as a nickname, it is not an authorized title, and the Church discourages its use. Thus, please avoid using the abbreviation "LDS" or the nickname "Mormon" as substitutes for the name of the Church, as in "Mormon Church," "LDS Church," or "Church of the Latter-day Saints."

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has recently asked everyone to not use LDS or Mormon to refer to their faith. I think that name is perhaps a bit troublesome in that Church of Jesus Christ or the Church are a bit vague as that name could refer to just about any Christian denomination.

4 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

When we have the Webelos campout, and if a Female Webelos were to attend (or multiple) would we need to have a registered YPT female leader present to be in compliance? 

Long term, the sensical thing to do would be for the girls webelos den to visit a girls troop. Obviously it'll be a muddle through for the next year while the girl troops get established.

Taking a step back from the legalistic language, what's the goal or intent of the position of responsibility requirement? Its to show/develop leadership to others, and giving of your own time to serve, I would argue. Does being a Den Chief accomplish this? Sure, in a lot of ways more than some of the other PoR like librarian. The Den Chief is likely attending two meetings a week, is going to be called upon to teach directly a lot of skills, and should be involved with the pack leadership to plan meetings.So within that, a conversation with the relevant Den Leader should pretty well cover if the scout is showing up.

58 minutes ago, Terasec said:

Thanks for that

i was never a scout so have only preconceived ideas of what cub scouting should be like

scouting is not what i expected it to be at least not scouting via bsa way

am now at a crossroads as to how much to contribute

it is not in my nature to sit back and have others take up the slack

It ramps up from the end of bear through boy scouts pretty steadily. Webelos are expected to camp as a patrol away from parents and to do so more frequently. Then scouts BSA is much more independent and camping oriented. I suspect part of the problem is finding a program that meets the needs of all the different groups across the country.

4 hours ago, Terasec said:

But now don't like the programming, and direction its taking,

This came up in another forum recently so I went back to my bear book from when I was a Cub Scout. The number of required camping events in the 1984 edition of the bear handbook was zero. There was an option for the outdoor adventure that could involve either camping or a hike or some other outdoor event, but even the outdoor adventure wasn't required. Looking through all the old roundtable, den leader, pow wow guides my mom collected back then, it was all arts and crafts stuff. The model of cub scouting back then was pretty heavily a thing that moms were expected to do in their homes to keep kids busy.

The idea that cub scouts arts and crafts is a recent swing in the direction does not gel with my experience.

I know this wasn't your main point, but it is worth pointing out that cub scouts has kinda always been this way.

In our area, tigers (and lions now) have to have an adult with them at all times while at day camp/council wide events where there are shooting sports. So the responsible adult was always around to help the younger kid stay safe anyway. Seems like an unnecessary rule.

edit: Wait they're still offering the shooting sports award to tigers though?

It seems like the sm is in the midst of the politics and having to make choices. That is, he’s trying to avoid annoying the committee member that he has to work with instead of siding with the ex scout. Asking him to run and organize the event is probably not going to work. 

You can get him to show up for a single role in all likelihood, but I think the combo of demanding an explanation and getting him to organize something is not going to work. Pick which battle you want. There’s clearly some sort of issue that we cannot work out here.

if you want the ecoh then I suggest you plan, mc, invite who you want etc  it’s not fair, but that’s where you’re at  

Also, the charity money, who has this money? 

4 minutes ago, Liz said:

As a side note, USSCOUTS doesn’t list that last option for inventing a game on their website, but it’s on all the other sites that explain the award - any idea why?

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As of June 1st, there is a new option, "Invent an outside game, and play it outside with friends for 30 minutes.

i would guess that the requirements got updated and usscouts hasn’t updated their list. 

Yeah, my thoughts on the award is that it should be easy enough for any cub who goes to day/resident camp should be able to complete the rest of the award relatively trivially. For example, the different hiking adventure loops have strong language about what counts (1 mile/3 miles) while the outdoor activity award just says go on a hike. This one is very much a don't over think it, keep it simple, make it fun.

I think the important question is how to move forward. Assuming that he does have the certificate and card, then questioning the eagle process doesn’t really get us anywhere, though it might help explain both the discrimination and the committee chair’s antagonism. 

Moving forward the question is really if it’s worth it to continue fighting the troop for an ECoH vs just running it yourself. Stuff like nice letters from politicians is cool, but certainly not nessisary. Returning money to the charity I would have thought would have been the last step in the eagle project, rather than a COH step, and should probably happen immediately regardless. The rest is about what do you want it to be and what can you make happen. 

8 minutes ago, scoutldr said:

Well the final hole is:  If you reported the YP violation to Council, and got no results, WHY did you keep subjecting your son (and yourself) to the bully for years?  Tell the SM...and the SE in a firm letter exactly why you are leaving and find a new Troop that follows the Scout Oath, Law and YP requirements.  I dunno...something doesn't smell right.  

With an aged out scout, its kinda hard to implement this advice though.

On 7/13/2018 at 12:49 PM, malraux said:

So putting together a timeline:

June 2017, he finishes his eagle application, turns in paperwork, etc.

He turns 18. (Note, when he turns 18 he is no longer a scout unless he registers as an adult)

(probably July) 2017, he finishes his eagle BOR, gets the award, certificate, patch, ribbon, etc.

Fall 2017 he goes off to college.

Summer 2018, he gets told no ECOH run by the troop.

 

Is that all correct? I am curious why an ECOH didn't happen in august 2017 right before he went off to college. That would be the most logical time.

Coming back over a year after leaving scouts (remember he left scouts the day he turned 18) asking for a big event might not be looked at favorably. Its an expense of time and money for a non-member.

To follow up on myself and rereading the thread, it looks like the BoR in October. With a June birthday, this means that the BoR happened in the 3-6 month window after turning 18, which should have involved additional paperwork. I would assume that "at college and can't get the time for the BoR till October" is a pretty legitimate reason for this but there should have been a process that was followed. I would want to be sure that someone at the troop isn't covering themselves for failing to do that correctly. (note: I'm only familiar with Cub Scouts currently so I might be misunderstanding how things actually work at the Scouting BSA level).

So now the delay in ECOH makes some sense in that if the BoR wasn't until after he started in college in the fall, I would assume that he was unable to schedule a convenient time prior to that. I still feel like there's a fair amount missing from the story as we have heard.

24 minutes ago, NJCubScouter said:

 

@The Latin Scot, I never heard that "official recommendation" of no more than 9 knots.  I am fairly certain that our CC has never heard of it either.     But I am so grateful to him for stepping up to be CC (in a difficult situation), and for the job he is doing, that as far as I am concerned he could plaster his entire shirt with knots if he wanted to.

 

From the Guide to awards and insignia, pg 61

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Knots are worn above the left pocket in rows of three. It is recommended that the number of knots be limited to three rows of three (a total of nine knots). 

Now, by the time one gets to 10 knots they've either worked rather hard to get there, built up a fair amount of political capital to get there, and like some combination of both. Either way, I figure if you are too the point of needing your pocket dropped down to accommodate your knots, who am I to say anything.

I’ll even say that you should wear service stars with the venturing backing to show your time as a youth. 

So putting together a timeline:

June 2017, he finishes his eagle application, turns in paperwork, etc.

He turns 18. (Note, when he turns 18 he is no longer a scout unless he registers as an adult)

(probably July) 2017, he finishes his eagle BOR, gets the award, certificate, patch, ribbon, etc.

Fall 2017 he goes off to college.

Summer 2018, he gets told no ECOH run by the troop.

Is that all correct? I am curious why an ECOH didn't happen in august 2017 right before he went off to college. That would be the most logical time.

Coming back over a year after leaving scouts (remember he left scouts the day he turned 18) asking for a big event might not be looked at favorably. Its an expense of time and money for a non-member.

4 hours ago, LVAllen said:

And, sure, he could have sat in a T-1C class for two hours a day and come out with most things ready to be signed off. But he wouldn't have been nearly as energized about Scouts afterword. He has plenty of time to work with his fellow scouts to improve those skills anyway.

I hadn't actually looked at the T-1C advancement much yet (Currently a bear den leader), but it really strikes me how much of those requirements are really designed to be covered in a troop camp out situation and not at a summer camp. Yeah the first aid stuff, some of the nature and hiking stuff, and the aquatics requirements work well at camp. But the camping, cooking, fire making, fitness, citizenship, etc are really poor matches for a 1 week summer camp.

1 hour ago, oldbuzzard said:

For us Cub day camp is $185 + $35 for busing from a single site 30 minutes away + aftercare. The Y is $240 for camp with free busing from a dozen sites, one of which is 2 blocks from our house..

No wonder our cub day camp is so popular and yet the budget is so tight. Its $90 for a week of cub day camp here.

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I forgot about that!

Yes, costumes are considered "camp uniforms" just like camp T-shirt and swim trunks. And you are suppose to salute. Again the rationale for that is to make it simpler for everyone to understand who salutes and who doesn't: everyone salutes.

I would be a bit bothered if staff dressed up only for a flag retirement ceremony. But if they costumed up for a full closing ceremony then yes, they should salute. 

On 6/1/2018 at 2:44 PM, mashmaster said:

For carrying bags, buy a 12" dish that is made to go under plastic planter pots.  That way the legs of the dutch oven don't poke holes in the bottom of the bag

I always store mine with the lid on the bottom, with the legs resting on the lid top. Keeps everything open so it doesn't hold moisture.

1 hour ago, shortridge said:

I’m guessing the day camp theme was Passport to Adventure, and these volunteers were encouraged to “camp it up” on the final day. During my time on camp staff, I recall staff wearing pirate vests and eyepatches over their Class As. It wasn’t a sign of disrespect, and I don’t think your staff was showing such, either.

Too lazy to dig it up, but there’s a line in the camp standards about encouraging costuming of camp staff. Assuming the staff was costuming in the theme of the camp, they were following the camp standards for uniforming. 

I would have to see how not in uniform they were to have a full judgement. That said, the activity uniform counts as a uniform.

Certainly the way the local council reads it, it’s 72 hours at the location/event. Ie resident webelos camp is designed to last exactly 71 hours to avoid the issue. But if you include travel time you will exceed the 72 hours. 

A constant dislike of scouts right after the meetings isn't the best sign. Assuming he's going into the 3rd grade, kids of that age still don't seem to be great at self reflection to figure out if they would be happier somewhere else. There might also be some issues that are happening at school that are feeding into the stuff happening at scouts if its the same group of kids. It can't hurt to at least look at some other packs.

In addition, the pack leaders turn down volunteers seems like a not great sign. I'd probably have a heart attack if a parent came up and asked to be assigned more work, not brush them off. They might be gun shy if they just had a big leadership change, but still.

I perhaps tend towards an overembelished uniform. Well uniforms because I picked up both a short sleeve and a long sleeve uniform. 

Lets see, I wear my AoL, Eagle, and den leader training knots and service star over the left pocket. I also wear an unofficial Cub Scout ring around the WOSM fleur di lis on one of my uniforms. On the right side, I’ll wear a relevant temporary patch, name plate, and 1993 jamboree patch. Left sleeve has the CSP (one of which is a wood badge csp), den leader PoR patch (one of which is the older style that only has den leader written that my mom wore many years ago), and trained patch. Left sleeve  I’ll admit I’m breaking the rules with a custom patrol patch from my wood badge patrol. 

I’ll almost always wear a necker relevant to what I’m doing most often either my troop 1 necker (till I’m done with my ticket) or the Cub Scout leader necker. 

Always scout pants or shorts. Either official scout socks or the green and red thorlo socks. If indoors a leather belt, if outdoors the webbing belt. Buckle I’ll swap out depending on what’s happening.

Headgear: either an expedition hat or a Tilley hat. I won’t not wear a wide brimmed hat for sun protection, and have an oversized head so the campaign hat just isn’t big enough. 

I found Wood Badge useful in that it helped contextualize a lot of the smaller elements of scouting into how they fit into the larger program. As a den leader, its useful to have the scout led patrol method process of Scouts BSA demonstrated explicitly. It also came at the right time for me/my pack as we are the point of having a decent number of cubs, a fair amount of leaders, but not a lot of direction on where we are headed. At least at my course, the real value was seeing the exemplar troop function. The management theory-ese got a bit meh at times, and I would have preferred a bit more scout craft teaching over yet another analysis of forming, storming, etc.

The course cares about your role because they like to make the patrols as broadly experienced as possible, or at least that's how mine worked. They do also want your ticket to pertain to your main role, so you might want to talk to the course director about it.