FireStone

On 6/6/2021 at 7:22 PM, fred8033 said:

I am betting there is another path... 

...If the scout really wants to be in OA, that scout should write a polite mail (or email) to the lodge chief and copy the lodge adviser.  State that he/she would be proud to be an OA member.  Explain his troop doesn't hold elections.  Communicate how he fulfills requirements (rank, nights camping, troop involvement, etc).  Further state why he/she would want to be a member.  IMHO, the perfect answer would be "to serve" and to learn from other scouts.  

My only fear is the scoutmaster response...

I think that might work but also agree that the SM response might be problematic. If the belief is that OA takes scouts away from the troop, then a scout being in OA, by whatever means they happen to be inducted, would still be a problem with the SM. It also won't help if the SM feels that a scout went around them to get what they wanted.

That said, IF this happened in such a way, it could serve as an example of how scouts can serve in OA and also remain fully active in the troop. If the SM could be persuaded to see this as a bit of an experiment, maybe that could open the door for expanded involvement in OA for the troop.

And all of that said, frankly, I think it's a shame that anyone would deprive their unit of involvement in OA, a fully recognized and official part of the BSA program regardless of how anyone personally feels about it. If all else fails, I would probably have to encourage any scout in such a situation to strongly consider option #3 discussed above (look for a new troop).

That's just lazy. Chimneys are easy to start with some newspaper, kindling, etc. They're basically designed for exactly that, starting a small fire underneath and letting that burn upwards until some coals are ignited.

And it's way more in line with scout-style fire starting to build a small kindling fire under the chimney anyway. I don't know why anyone would use fluid in a scout setting.

On 5/1/2021 at 8:10 PM, clivusmultrum said:

To me its funny, when I was a Scout I loved my uniform. We actual kept ours on for the camping trips. The kids in this troop just hate the uniform. If they designed their own I bet it would look like a soccer uniform.

I didn't like it even as a kid. And it has never been all that practical for camping. Especially the Cub uniforms with the Webelos colors hanging off the sleeve, the pins, etc. I hear local leaders refer to it as a field uniform, but that's a hard argument to make anymore when there is much more practical field attire for camping, hiking, etc. More light-weight, breathable, comfortable stuff that anyone would prefer to wear.

I think the BSA has tried to evolve the shirt into more of a field-style shirt. Maybe we're just a few more revisions away from something the kids will actually like.

The uniform has its place and purpose, and I wear it (and ask my scouts to do the same) where required. But as a general rule, I take the summer camp approach: Running around all day, dress comfortably. For less active events, flags, dinner, etc., the uniform should be worn.

23 hours ago, Eagledad said:

... My issue with the BSA is that they are driving youth away because the cub program burns out the adults. Last I checked, around 50 percent of Webelos don't crossover into a troop after graduating from the pack. That doesn't include the younger cub age dropouts or the first year scouts who joined but never went to a troop meeting. I believe that at least 80% of those youth left because of their parents. Parents didn't push them to leave, but they didn't encourage them to stay either...

I agree with this. I struggle with this in a variety of ways in my Pack. I think leaders and parents have good intentions trying to create the most robust cub program possible, with tons of activities, meetings, trips, etc. But it's exhausting. Five years of that and I can see how some parents probably just don't care anymore if their scout crosses over to a troop. They might even secretly hope they will ask to quit.

We butt head with parents who want the entire day in camp to be scheduled. I want time for the kids to go play and the adults to sit and drink coffee. Interestingly enough the parents who want to add more to the program and the ones who contribute the least. So they want a busier day for their kid at the expense of all of the other leaders and parents who have to make it happen.

Then we see some of the most active families burned out by crossover and they don't join a troop.

This is way after the fact but for future reference:

The easiest Pack meeting we do each year is a Paper Airplane Derby.

Bring a stack of printer paper, have the dens make planes and compete for distance, style, highest flyer, stunt planes, etc.

Normally I'm of the opinion that scouts could do summer camp but otherwise get a break from scouting in the summer. The scouting trail can be long, no need to burn everyone out early. Take a couple of months off.

However I'm making an exception this year because I'm DL for a Webelos den and covid set us back a bit on advancement and getting ready to cross over to a troop next year, so we'll be keeping things going this summer.

A more recent thought I've had, actually has been to ease off den meetings in May and June because my town is big on baseball and it's really difficult to get good attendance at scout meetings/activities. I'd rather slow things down in May and June and then pick back up in July. Not sure I'll ever actually do that, just a thought I've had recently.

Although it's stated in the history of this thread, I think it is worth repeating: The BSA does not explicitly ban fixed-blade knives or set limitations on blade length.

On the issue of carrying a knife, fixed-blade or otherwise, that can vary depending on local jurisdictions, COs, Troop rules, etc.

With the one exception being that I believe Cub Scouts are limited to use and carry of pocket knives only, at least as it is implied in Whittling Chip.

They make a fair point about the name, they could change the name but still reference BP in their history and founding principles, which I hope they will do much like the BSA does. Although i kind of doubt that will actually happen.

Weird that they kept the fleur-de-lis logo, which BP was responsible for in scouting. If they are so anti-BP now, the logo should have changed, too.

The organization kind of seems to always be in a bit of an identity crisis. They were a mostly adult organization for a while, then became a more inclusive youth alternative to the BSA, a feature that they still cling to today even though it's not really much of a distinguishing factor anymore.

I don't think their name was ever the problem. They want to be a BSA alternative but they don't focus on what makes them a compelling alternative today, which would be their more traditional back-to-basics scouting program. They call themselves "scouting for all", but they don't offer a much more inclusive program than anyone else, except on the subject of a faith requirement.

The name change doesn't improve things for them, in my opinion. They say the name has something to do with their inclusiveness, but I don't get it. Doesn't sound like a youth-focused name, either.

Love the new shirts. I kind need a new one, not urgent but with these new options available I'll definitely go for one of these.

But I'll never do the official pants. Can't stand them. I get similar green-color 5.11 pants.

Finally. 👍

On 12/10/2020 at 11:21 AM, Mrjeff said:

The Order of the Arrow is pushing for virtual inductions and summer camp can be done on line...

...Perhaps a better title would be "Young People's Leadership and Development Society" and simply do away with outside activities. 

These are covid-related changes, and they're temporary. The BSA hasn't removed any outdoor components of the program in the handbooks.

I keep hearing this allegation that the BSA is cutting out the outdoorsy stuff or that units in the past did more stuff outdoors. If any of that is true, it's not because of anything the BSA is doing.

51 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Do you really think the Scouts do not notice these things? They do observe, and do see the double standards. And yes some adults do talk to their kids about YP and why things cannot be done. And those Scouts who work day camp and summer camp do indeed get the YPT training as it is mandated in the NCAP.

I can't speak for all, but in my Pack and Den, no, the scouts are not exposed to any gender bias. If other folks are passing along a "boys are bad" message to their scouts based on how they interpret YPT, I'm not sure why they choose to do that. Even if that is their interpretation, why they elect to then make that a visible message to scouts is beyond my understanding.

6 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

The double standard in youth protection, i.e. 2 female adults over 21 can take a bunch a males out camping, but 2 males over 21 cannot tale a bunch of females on any meeting or activity. Also 18-20 year old males no longer count as a 2nd adult for YP purposes.  

I'm still not following. How does that translate to "boys are bad" in any way that reaches scouts? Even if that is you're interpretation of the YPT rules (it's not my interpretation), that still should never influence scouts in any way. Those parts of the adult training regarding the gender ratio of adults at any activity aren't ever expressed to kids.

How are boys "being told that men are bad" as David suggested?

If boys in any unit are getting that kind of message, that's coming from the local adults, not the BSA.

13 hours ago, David CO said:

Boys are aware of this prevalent attitude of girls are good/boys are bad.  They get it all the time in school.  They don't like it.  If BSA keeps pushing this idea in scouting, boys won't be interested in joining.

...

Boys are aware of the fact they will soon be men.  They are also aware of BSA's attitude toward men.  They don't like being told that men are bad.  As future men, they feel than the negative attitudes BSA has about men reflect poorly on them as well.  

Specifically where is this "boys are bad" thing being suggested by the BSA? Can you please reference anything that suggests this or could be interpreted that way?

10 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

The faded patches now hang on the wall my old handbooks all packed in a chest. I follow still adventures trail, but Scouting took a hard left.

I'm always up for some nostalgia, the box of scouting memorabilia on the shelf behind me of my days on the trail as a youth always takes me back just from thumbing through the patches and remembering where or how I earned them.

But you lost me at the quoted part above. I fail to see how we've taken this hard turn, that scouting is somehow so different now.

I had my Webelos den out for a little 4-mile walk in the woods a couple of weeks ago, along the way talking about the Outdoor Code (which to my surprise some of the scouts had already memorized perfectly) and some plans for working on adventure pins and a Nova award over the upcoming winter break. We're just finishing up Castaway, on the heels of one of my proudest moments as a DL where every scout in my den successfully started a flint and steel fire at our last den meeting. The kids don't even seem to care much about what pin they're getting, they just loved that they started a fire without a match or lighter.

Scouting didn't take a hard turn anywhere. The handbook is still the handbook, it's full of ideas for adventures not unlike those of my past and yours, if we just follow it. The BSA isn't changing that. So what really changed? The only changes I see are to the membership policies, and those don't have any impact on what my den is doing. The trail they're on, it looks a whole lot like the trail I remember and sounds like the one mentioned above.

We just had a Pack campfire (virtually) on Friday night, and we closed it out with some of those same lyrics from Scout Vespers. Again, I ask, what has really changed? This all feels very familiar and typical of scouting to me. If anything, I think the experience my den and pack is having is actually a richer and more rewarding experience than what I had.

12 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

It is Stetson branded hat?

I got that info from the Q&A section of the product page on the Scout Shop website. Someone asked "Who is the manufacturer of these hats?" and the reply was, "This hat is made by Stetson."

1 hour ago, Mrjeff said:

I'm with the folks who believe we can carry on!  Nobody knows what is going to come out of this but Scouting can survive.  The national office may lock their doors, large and valuable pieces of property may be sold, the entire professional staff may be abolished and there is not one little thing that I can do about it.   What I  can do is get a couple of adults together and take a bunch of kids camping. I can teach lashing, firebuilding, cooking, and other grand "outdorsey" things.  I can teach and demonstrate good citizenship, leadership and honesty.  That sounds like Scouting to me.  I may not be able to get to New Mexico or West Viirginia but I bet farmer Jones will let us camp out in his field!  It just depends on how hard the dedicated grass root Scouters are willing to work in order to survive.  And I do believe it will be up to us and not a corps of professionals who will be standing when this whole situation fades away.

I know I'm a broken record with referring to the BPSA-US, but I truly believe they are the case study that proves that this is all possible. They have been doing exactly this, running a volunteer-led grassroots scouting program, getting some adults together to teach kids traditional scout skills, and doing it with some creativity in finding places to go and camps to use.

It is entirely possible, maybe inevitable, certainly proven to be a workable model of scouting.

2 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I think the answer to a lot of the issues for me is head forward, stop looking up the pyramid, even if it falls down, we can still camp as a troop. 

I've tried to maintain a similar opinion. We've got enough problems on our plates currently with just keeping even the basic parts of our programs going during a pandemic, all we can do face forward and keep going. And for me that means going through whatever comes of the BSA, regardless of whether it falls or not, and beyond into whatever form of scouting program we can maintain. We don't need much to get some kids together and go camping or take on a service project. We've seen groups like the BPSA-US do it with nothing more than a rough outline of a traditional scouting program and a desire to make it happen. Limited support from any kind of national HQ, no regional council, no paid professionals, just volunteers making it work.

This thing will go on, with or without the BSA, with or without us. I believe enough in the scouting movement to trust that it will endure. It could live on as nothing more than a local group of kids who want to get together and go camping. But it will live on. That's enough for me to feel good about what we're doing, that no matter what happens at National, here on the ground we are and will continue to do scouting.

That's fine if it's not a summer hat, I'm really looking for a cooler weather hat anyway. I have a booney for the hot weather.

Thanks all for the feedback. I have a planned trip to my local scout shop later in the week, going to see if they have one in stock.

Honestly right now, being a little overly-cautious is not a bad thing. Too many people are getting sick. We've got cases in my kids' school, other schools around town, a coworker has it, it's scary times.

And believe me, I get the frustration. I want nothing more than to be doing in-person meetings with my Webelos but it's just not a good time for that. Have to make due the best we can. And that's what I'd tell scouts if I were in a troop. Virtual meetings aren't great, but make due. Get some meetings on the calendar, do something. Take the camera outside and do some outdoor virtual patrol activities. Knock out some of the non-outdoors stuff, work on a citizenship badge together, etc.

And tell them to just remember that this is temporary, we will get through it. But we can't sit still just because virtual meetings are less than ideal. Challenge them to get creative. I understand the reluctance to do more of what some of them already do all day if their school is remote, but challenge them to harness all of this tech that they know better than us old guys/gals and find creative ways to work as a patrol.

Or challenge them to go old-school. Work on Signs, Signals and Codes, and they have to text each other using only morse. 😄

The impact of COVID on membership really cannot be understated. Even in Packs like mine where we have tried to maintain an active outdoor program, we've taken a hit to membership (both previous and new) because of covid. Some parents even openly complained that we weren't delivering the outdoor group activities they had come to expect. We did the best we could but we had to dial things back a bit, and for some families that made scouting no longer living up to expectations.

With new parents it was hard to sell the promise of adventure when we were hamstrung on how much outdoor adventure we could really do. While our new signups were less than half of what I'd expect in an average year. Really probably about 25% of what I'd ideally hope to see.

How much of that added to the crisis or just acted on its own as a sort of crisis on top of another crisis, I'm not sure. But I think we'll be discussing the covid effect for a long time, while trying to recover from it and hopefully build back new membership next year.

Anyone have the BSA Brimmed Hat (formerly the Expedition Hat)? https://www.scoutshop.org/brimmed-hat-600016.html

It's surprisingly cheap at $37.99 for a Stetson hat. Just wondering how the quality actually is, if it's durable, holds up over time, etc.

Also, is it the moldable kind of felt/wool that you can shape with hot steam?

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

My wife and I are looking for some normalcy from Covid and were excited to watch some of our favorite shows. Only to find ourselves changing the channel because the shows are focusing on Covid. I think a pleasant distraction from the stress of today's situation would be very welcome.

Barry

I get that. We all need the mental break.

My reason for wanting to do something covid-related, though, is that I believe this will end at some point (if the science keeps showing encouraging results), and when my scouts look back on all of this I'd like them to remember that they did something to help.

I want to do a service project with my Webelos and preferrably do something that would benefit people/community in a way that addresses some covid-related problem. I'm racking my brain and not coming up with much.

Anyone have any suggestions or have you done any covid-related projects with your Cub Scouts?

On 8/9/2020 at 5:53 PM, Liz said:

I’m just going on the assumption that we will Scout On. If eventually that is without the BSA as we know it, I’m sure we’ll figure something out. 

If the BSA folds, I'll charter a BPSA-US group and just keep on doing what I'm doing, getting my scouts together, learning fun outdoor skills, camping, etc. Doesn't matter all that much to me what the name of the organization on the uniform shirt is.

Since a few months have gone by on this topic, @Liz I hope you had some success since then in getting your Webelos moving on those pins. I'm a Webelos DL and I know how hard covid has made it to do things that previously would have been fairly easy.