FireStone

55 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Perhaps before we even begin talking about a marketing issue, I think we need to determine if we have a product issue.

While I don't agree with everything Mike says here, I think he makes many valid points.  

Off The Wall: Death of the Boy Scouts? – Mike Rowe

I don't want to hijack this thread, but if the product is stale and lacks relevance, no amount of marketing will make a big impact...

The product is solid, I think. From the conversations I have with new families, what we offer is exactly what they are looking for. Just yesterday alone I answered questions about how often does the Pack go camping, hiking, how do we foster independence among the scouts, teach them to be more self-reliant, become better problem-solvers, etc. That's what parents are looking for, what some of them specifically asked me about yesterday, and our product is exactly those things that they are looking for.

I might argue that the appearance of the product has grown somewhat stale. It looks a little stuffy sometimes, the uniforming, parade marches, ceremonies, it has some military flair that I think appeals to some families but less so than the spirit of adventure and fun that we try to sell. The stuff that works, the stuff families sign up for, we do that stuff very well.

I think we just to a pretty bad job of getting people to know that we do those things, and that unless they actually seek us out and directly ask about those things, they would otherwise have no idea what local scouting really is.

53 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

When I was Committee Chair of my pack, I spent a lot of time on Facebook and a bit on Twitter.  I promoted my Facebook join scouts night and advertised in our town's rec guide.  However, most of that had minimal impact.  Outside having social media presence posting pictures, I wouldn't waste much time there.  The best recruiting, we had was when we had a popular mom in a grade hand out flyers to all the other moms in that grade.  She recruited 30+ Lions that year.  My other good recruiting year is when I emailed nearly all parents in the school and let them know about scouts.  However, I was scolded by the PTO as I wasn't supposed to use the email list for that purpose. 

Pre-covid we had increasing resistance to getting printed flyers into schools. Principals and the Superintendent frequently rejected requests to distribute flyers, even though it was our #1 marketing tool for a long time. Post-covid, it's even worse, because during covid the schools moved completely away from any sheets of paper changing hands, and school communications went 100% digital.

So we are sort of forced now to lean on social media more than ever. What I'm trying to figure out is what form of social media reaches families the best. Which platform(s), what formats, photos, videos, etc.

That and what community events can we attend, how can we be more visible in town. And that especially is where I think troops are not exactly pulling their weight. When there is a venue to show off what scouting is about, it shouldn't be all Cub Scouts showing off Pinewood Derby cars and family camping. I'd like to see troops there showing off pictures of their recent Sea Base trip or a backpack full of gear.

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKie47V2lLY

 

We need Mike Rowe in some nationwide BSA ads. 😁

Speaking broadly but locally, I'm kind of shocked at how little the local community knows about scouting.

Got back from a National Night Out event tonight where our Pack had a booth set up. We got so many questions from kids and parents about programs for older kids, middle and high school age. We have 3 troops in town. And yet seemingly no one knows about them.

None of the troops have any social media presence, 2 don't even have a website. The 3rd has a website with pretty much nothing on it.

In doing some searching around online, I'm finding that very few troops in my area have much of any online presence. Offline, they aren't very visible either. No troops attended today's community event. None hold any kind of open house or sign-up night events. And so finding info about the local Scouts BSA offerings is pretty limited. No wonder people don't even know we have troops in town.

Not to mention that people don't know what they do. Folks around here, including some already in Cub Scouts, have no idea that Scouts BSA troops in our area do things like Philmont, Northern Tier, and Sea Base. They think we just go camping once in a while and sell poinsettias around the holidays. I'm convinced that some parents IN the troop don't even know exactly what the troop does sometimes, because parents are discouraged from hanging around so they drop off their kid and leave, and since there is zero online presence to even share photos of recent activities, everything is happening in a bubble. The community knows very little about local scouting, or that local scouts go off on amazing adventures around the country.

I think this is terrible. Scouting should be visible, online and offline, throughout the community. We aren't very good at marketing ourselves, and this is made more glaringly obvious when Cub Scout Packs have to carry the load and tell people that the town Troops even exist. I don't think troops should be relying solely on Packs to feed new scouts into them, and yet that seems to be exactly how troops here view this.

I guess this is partially a rant but I also hope this can be constructive discussion and idea-sharing conversation. What does local scouting marketing and community awareness look like in your area? Does your troop share info with the community or do any outreach? Is recruiting in scouting beyond Cub Scouts a waste of time for troops to invest much effort into?

Can Cub Scout families still opt to do advancement requirements at home, all the way through Arrow of Light? Got a family wanting to not attend meetings but still have their scout complete Arrow of Light. Not sure how this is even possible for the patrol-based requirements and the troop visit requirements, but someone wants to do it anyway.

2 hours ago, MattR said:

That's also against the rules. Once you're 18 you have to swap the eagle patch for a knot.

I gave out a lot of eagle patches that weren't allowed to be worn. I asked that the parents get their son a knot.

I should have mentioned, I'm not even talking about giving an 18-year-old a hard time about it. These are 50+ year old guys wearing rank ovals.

The general vibe I'm getting here is that pretty much everyone has a preference one way or the other, but is also mostly ok with everyone doing whatever they personally want to do. Which is great.

I like to say I'm open-minded about uniforms but I do have one thing I'm 100% against: Adults wearing Eagle rank patches. I've seen 2 people do it.

I brought this up in another topic and thought it was worth spinning off into a separate discussion, because I'd be interested in getting some other opinions on this.

In my area there are some adults who are of the philosophy that the adult uniform should be minimal, displaying as few patches as possible. Many adults in one particular unit intentionally wear nothing more than the default patches that come with the uniform. The idea is that adults shouldn't be "bragging" about their scouting accomplishments, but rather leave the display of accomplishments on the uniform to the scouts.

I generally disagree with this, but thinking about it some more I was wondering if there isn't at least a hint of a valid point here. What is the purpose of adult recognition on the uniform, and does it serve a purpose for the scouts? If it doesn't serve a purpose, then does it have a place in a youth program?

I've viewed it this way: Patches on my uniform are often conversation starters, both with scouts and with parents. Scouts often ask about my OA flap and square knots, which leads to discussions about things you can aspire to accomplish later on in your scouting journey. Parents have asked about my Baloo training patch, which leads to constructive conversations about training in general.

Are there other benefits to adults keeping their uniforms appropriately outfitted with patches?

Or should uniform patches beyond the basics be the exclusive domain of scouts?

4 hours ago, qwazse said:

3. Don’t bother with a uniform. Focus on helping your scout look sharp.

If seattlecyclone is considering being a den leader, they should wear the uniform. AND help their scout look sharp. If they're going to be a helpful parent in the den, uniform is optional.

I use my uniform as a conversation starter, for adults and scouts alike. For adults, I like to keep my training badges on my uniform, including a Baloo badge. Parents do ask about it sometimes, and it's a great way to let them know that we go out of our way to train leaders and that we put some time into it, we spend weekends in the woods learning how to be better leaders for their kids.

For scouts, I like to wear badges that are likely to get questions. The ones that get the most questions are the OA flap and square knots. And if they ask about the eagle square knot, usually the explanation of it is met with some surprise. For a lot of cubs, Eagle Scouts are these mythical scouts they have only heard exist. They really don't meet many until they get into doing Webelos activities with local troops. I'm a big proponent of giving scouts glimpses into the stuff that comes with staying in the program, things they can look forward to. So I take any opportunity to talk about that stuff. The adult uniform is often the conversation starter for those topics.

I know some local adults who have a philosophy that adult uniforms should be minimal, they don't put anything more than the basics on theirs and believe adults shouldn't use the uniform to brag about their accomplishments. The scouts should be showing off their awards, not adults. I don't see it that way, at least not in how I treat the adult uniform. If done right, anyway. I do think there are some adults who use it to unnecessarily brag (we have a local guy who is in his 60s and insists on still wearing an eagle rank patch and the square knot too), but for the most part I think the adult uniform has a useful place in letting adults and scouts know what a leader has done and what scouts can aspire to accomplish themselves in the program.

With seattlecyclone being an Eagle Scout, wearing a uniform with an eagle square knot could be a similar conversation starter in their pack and den.

On 7/15/2022 at 9:53 PM, Oldscout448 said:

Please don't take this as  a challenge or an attack,  can you define " socially unsafe" and " culturally unsafe"?

It's not the best phrasing but what I making the comparison to the general criteria where adults are supposed to intervene. Usually that is in scenarios where something is unsafe. So I used similar terminology here.

I don't mean literally/physically unsafe/harmful to others, just harmful in general. Or let's say disrespectful is a better way to put it.

2 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Wow, could it be that the group known as the Order of the Arrow, a group that is SUPPOSED TO BE YOUTH RUN is the victim of way to much adult influence.  Adults tend to over think everything.  Adults read too much into things, want everyone to achieve everything, and get "a trophy" for just showing up.  If all of the guesses, policies and rules are put in place to appease everyone,mwe wouldn't do anything.   I try to remember that the whole thing is based on the cold hard fact that kids are involved in Scouting in to have fun. Rules, lessons, learning and value are secondary.  In my prospective, the OA is kids getting together in a safe environment having fun.

Adults are there to step in when something is unsafe. Not just physically unsafe but also socially, emotionally, culturally, etc. We're not supposed to stand aside and say "scout-led" to everything the scouts want to do. Certainly if something crosses into territory that is possibly harmful to people of a specific heritage, we are supposed to intervene.

That said, I do think a line has been crossed if adults are blocking OA elections because they think it takes scouts away from the troop. Regardless of whether it is true or not (debatable that it excessively removes scouts from troop participation), that alone is not a reason to block elections. That is not scout-led.

On 6/14/2022 at 6:31 PM, RememberSchiff said:

...Who was that masked man - Scott Armstrong, Director of National Media Relations for the BSA?  From what I read, his response was quick, informed, and supportive - professional. 👍

...

Scott still has some work to do on this. Articles are still circulating that read, "Boy Scout makes threat with rifle on social media to New York middle school." With no correction.

I get that with school safety, reacting quickly is important. Too bad the media doesn't react as quickly to incorrect information as they did when they reacted hastily to the original erroneous report.

10 hours ago, yknot said:

The only other nonethnic youth activity I know apart from scouts that incorporated something like face paint as a rite of passage was foxhunting. Young members of the Pack would get "blooded" the first time they managed to arrive at a kill with the rest of the field. Their faces were marked, sometimes with fox blood, sometimes with something more benign. However, modern day outlooks have changed and fox killing is viewed differently and blooding, or the simulation of blooding, has like many other dated practices pretty much faded away. It's hard to understand then why proponents are so determined to keep things like Native American inspired face painting in scouting, particularly OA, when it has nothing to do with what youth actually do in scouts. Scouting is patch, badge, pin,  sash, flag, and ribbon mad: There must be some impressive regalia unique to scouts and OA, and in keeping with the organization's own insignia traditions, that could be created to replace using symbols of Native American culture like paint or feathers. In the present day, putting war paint on scouts seems as odd and out of the mainstream as putting fake fox blood on young riders. 

This is exactly what I'm talking about, what we should be avoiding. Equating all face paint to being Native-American-inspired is attaching cultural ownership of something that no one really has claim to. Putting color on your face does not mean it's cultural appropriation. It doesn't mean that when a football player puts black under his eyes, it doesn't mean that when a student at a pep rally paints their face blue to match school colors. It doesn't mean that when a den leader puts an orange stripe on a Tiger scout's face at a ceremony.

Paint and feathers are not just part of native american culture. They are part of many cultures. It's in how they are used that makes them specific to a tribe, a region, a culture, etc. I'm pretty sure people of aztec or asian tribal heritage would be pretty annoyed to find that we regard the use of feathers to be exclusively Native American.

Frankly I find it just as "odd and out of the mainstream" to suggest that something as commonplace as feathers is the exclusive domain of one specific group of people.

14 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

As long as there is a lake for that flaming arrow to be extinguished in that can still be impressive, and I was the person shooting that arrow on several occasions (might not quite jib with the Outdoor Code or Leave No Trace though 😇).

As for the face painting, I remember ceremonies in the 60's where the was not only face paint used but the team went through a couple of gallons of red body paint to mimic native coloration.  Looking back now, I cannot believe we thought that was ok.  One of the primary reasons we stopped using face paint was that a lot of it was copied from what those ceremonialists saw in pictures.  The problem with that was that may of those pictures depicted designs that were religious in nature; I am greatful that we no longer do that.

I think there's a big difference between "face paint" and "face paint that mimics specific tribal designs". And your example illustrates this as well. Face paint itself isn't inherently native american, but face paint intended to copy specific native american designs would be an issue. Obviously red body paint is problematic.

Likewise, arrows, hatchets, feathers aren't exclusive to native american culture, but a tomahawk is, or a feathered headdress.

My point is this: Are we going too far with stripping out anything even remotely native american from ceremonies, removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed and thereby taking out stuff that made these ceremonies more enjoyable? These things are native american only in the context of how they are used, not that the items themselves should be protected from appropriation. As others have mentioned, I just wonder if we gave some thought to how to use certain things in ceremonies in a non-culturally-appropriated way that we could then also retain some of the visual interest of the ceremonies.

On 7/3/2022 at 11:58 PM, SiouxRanger said:

... I always thought it was the duty of the SM and assistant scout masters to make program opportunities available which comport with the program, the OA being among them.

If the scouts decide not to participate, so be it, but at least they self-select not to participate...

 

Agreed. I don't think a troop can call itself scout-led if the adults are opting not to allow the troop to have OA elections.

Regarding ceremonies and regalia, I feel like there was a missed opportunity to re-work the scripts and reduce dependence on native-American-specific regalia and culture and shift focus to something more neutral without losing the all allure and mystique that makes those ceremonies so cool. Sounds like some lodges went all western cowboy themed and it misses the mark.

I think there are ceremonial features that are more neutral than we realize, and they didn't have to get removed. There isn't anything uniquely native-American about shooting a flaming arrow into a lake or painting your face. Obviously things like putting on a headdress or wearing something that is very specific to a particular tribe or region are more problematic. But I feel like we scrapped everything when we didn't have to.

Scouts like OA ceremonies because they are different. Kids aren't sitting there thinking, "Wow, that was an incredibly authentic hoop dance and the beaded belt that scout wore was beautifully detailed." They like the ceremonies because they are different, they are seeing stuff that is unique not just in scouting but in general. Most couldn't tell you if the costuming was authentic or completely uninspired by any specific tribe at all.

Ceremonies can still be interesting and inspiring without the cringe. It just will take some more work to get there. If a lodge is just going to phone it in and go with an easy cowboy theme, stripped entirely of what made previous OA ceremonies cool, then I'm not surprised that the scouts aren't enjoying them anymore.

It's hard to watch. But it's necessary. The stories are told in a way and with a degree of detail that I haven't seen or heard previously, not in a more graphic way but as it relates to how the victims were impacted at the time and throughout their lives afterwards. And still today. And what the BSA was doing about it at the time.

And the lengths to which a shockingly large number of people at various levels from CO to National worked to cover up abuse. Even making up stories about why some abusers suddenly left their positions, but still fully documenting that these people were committing felony abuse, but being let off the hook.

It was really interesting to see victim's reactions to some of the documentation from the BSA and/or COs when dismissing abusers. They knew how bad these guys were, and they protected them from any and all exposure, even to other families within the troop.

They had to do this. It was a real problem sometimes with a kid not getting AOL and being 10, crossing the bridge and then not being able to join a Troop, it created a gap in their scouting experience that wasn't good.

Does it open the door to other problems with even younger kids joining a troop? Maybe. But the original problem still needed to be addressed. It had to either be this or set a rule to stop Packs bridging too early.

Which, BTW, is possibly another problem worth addressing. I've had leaders tell me we should do the crossover in February. I think that's way too early.

9 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Hmmm...are you familiar with the capabilities of SUAC (Scoutbook User Advisory Council)??

I'm not but I'd like to look into it.

10 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

You are using the SUAC guys on https://discussions.scouting.org/new ???

No, direct with council, it's mostly roster issues, account issues, stuff we can't even change at the Pack level.

The amount of time I'm spending this week trying to get Scoutbook issues resolved, I should be paid for this. 😖

Our Pack does a winter campfire in December, and Webelos dens have done winter cabin camping. If you have a big indoor space you could try something like a paper airplane derby. And we occasionally in Januarys have done a battleship overnight, but last year we couldn't. Similarly, we have considered doing a museum sleepover/overnight.

10 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

I have had this happen. It stinks. I haven’t tried to remove it, just cover it up with the next patch. 

It's in 2 places on my son's shirt, one will be covered by rank patches (it's where his Webelos rank badge was).

The other spot is where the Pack number was. He's going from a 3-digit Pack number to a single-digit Troop number, so it shows.

I'll try to get it out if possible, but he's already a year into this shirt and the way he's growing, he'll need another size up in a year, so this is probably a temporary situation anyway.

14 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

Are these badges you sewed on, or are they the ones that were done by the Scout Shop when you bought the shirt?

After removing the world crest that was on a shirt when I bought it I found that our Scout Shop used a spray adhesive to hold it in place when the sewed it on.  It left a light circle of reside which I removed with Goof Off and a toothbrush.  You could also try acetone, although I would test it on the bottom of the shirt tail first.

They were badges that I sewed on, so off the shelf from the scout shop and hand-sewn on myself. No adhesive added.

I might try goof off first. Thanks for the idea.