FireStone

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

Scouting is local for local scouters. When I read that change is overdue without a substance of reason, the author is typically applying a local frustration to a national level.

Not at all. Locally for me as a youth, Scouting was thriving. But we still heard the rumors of a unit in the next town shutting down, membership declines across the state, etc. The frustration was very much a national one, and has been for decades. I had no local frustration that influenced my thoughts on the bigger picture of the BSA around the country.

We have a weird opportunity this year with recruiting. While many schools remain virtual-only and a lot of sports are shut down, both parents and kids are anxious to do things to fight the boredom and cabin fever. And here we are, offering an outdoor program that presents opportunities to try new things, explore, play, learn, have fun and go on adventures. It's kind of perfect for us to be recruiting right now, when what we "sell" is exactly what so many families need and are looking for.

How that will actually translate into new sign-ups, who knows yet. In my Pack the new sign-ups are about average, which I consider a "win" in these strange times we're dealing with. But I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear that some Packs see an uptick in new membership. In some areas we might be the only game in town offering an outdoor activity for kids to participate in.

21 hours ago, Troop75Eagle said:

...Scouts will have to appeal to many people to earn respect and compete against forces that have a life of their own.  It will have to earn the respect of those (many)  who would like to help and participate but feel so alienated that their time and commitments elsewhere make it easy to ignore an organization that no longer maintains its historical credibility (to them)...

This right here is the ongoing struggle of Scouting in America, maybe globally, and it came upon us long before the ills of modern technology, politics, and membership policy changes. Scouting was already struggling when I was a scout (1990s), and some of the issues back then (at least from a youth perspective) I think are the same struggles we have today. How does the program fit into modern society, is it still relevant, do kids still want to do it, etc.

We can take all of the political and social issues out of the discussion and the problems of the BSA remain. The BSA has to change, it has been long overdue for major change for decades. I think they're trying to change things now, But maybe it's too late.

5 hours ago, eagle90 said:

One of the most difficult concepts Crossover parents have to adjust to is that not every moment of a campout has to be scheduled...

I'm constantly fighting this battle within my Pack. It's exhausting for everyone when we're on a tight schedule in camp. And it's totally unnecessary, especially at the Pack level. I think the idea is that we camp just a few times per year, so we have to make the most of each trip. But it seriously burns people out, I think the kids included. They want time to just run around in the woods, play a game, hang out in camp. That's a quality experience in itself.

To this day one of my Webelos son's favorite memories of scouting so far is a trip a couple of years ago and "log battle" in camp, 2 kids just trying to see who could stay on a shared log longest. he still talks about it. What he doesn't remember are the activities that we were running to, trying to be on time, rushing to go through the safety intro or whatever else we just barely showed up on time for, and then not having all that much fun doing the activity because the kids are tired.

I don't know why anyone likes that kind of over-scheduled madness, pre-crossover or post. I would have thought that by the time a parent sees their scout cross over, they'd welcome the idea of their son/daughter having some time to choose their own activities, make their own schedule.

On 8/10/2020 at 8:17 AM, RichardB said:

Some thoughts on doing it safely https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-693.pdf

Is that checklist a list of required protocols for all meetings and/or activities? I'm not super comfortable doing medical screenings before each Den meeting. I'm not a healthcare professional and some of the criteria are open to interpretation. A cough can be a lot of things. A headache could exclude me from activities pretty often. If a parent attend a Den meeting and says they have a headache, am I supposed to ask them to leave?

My Webelos will wear the blues and the tan uniform will be optional next year. Come at me, uniform police.

Seems specific to Board of Review, but what about other situations where video conferencing could be used now that we're not able to meet in-person? Regular meetings, Patrol Meetings, SMCs, Cub Scout meetings, etc? Are the guidelines the same? Parents must be present at the beginning and end, no recording, etc...?

On 3/10/2020 at 11:18 AM, swilliams said:

I was thinking of starting a thread talking about suggestions for continuing the program while trying to deal with this.

I was thinking about doing video Den Meetings a while back, and now it seems like even more of a useful option to have. I've used free services like https://whereby.com for work, and  I think it could work for doing a virtual den meeting (with a small group).

Obviously some YPT issues come into play in a virtual setting. I'm not even sure if video conferencing services are allowed with scouts, need to research the YPT implications. But off the top of my head, if we used a service like this I was going to ask that a parent/guardian be present and visible on camera with their scout for any video meetings we hold.

We're also in NJ, nothing cancelled yet but I think we'll know more about what the schools are planning by early next week, and then we'll probably follow their lead. I think it would be weird if schools closed but we were still trying to get kids together for group scout activities.

A lot of local schools are doing half-day or full-day closures on Friday for teacher training on virtual learning.

20 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

Part of the reason we use slides or slipknots is so that, in an emergency, the neckerchief can be whipped right off and used as needed. It's the very practicality of the neckerchief as an emergency tool and garment that makes it so important and and demonstrative of utilitarian Scouting values. Taking the time to undo a fancy knot like that seems like the very antithesis of that intent...

If that is the true intent, the slides aren't the problem, the neckerchief itself is. We need to go back to square neckers folded in half, and at a large enough size to actually be usable as a first-aid tool or other device. The knot really has very little to do with the utility of the neckerchief.

I love this. Glad this seems to be gaining more traction. Slides are awful, especially the metal ones the BSA sells.

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

It makes sense to that a council would consider SB to be the official unit record of advancement. That sure beats my SM's shoe box. Although he managed it well, my brother wasn't so lucky with his SM.

But, units fail. Electronic records get lost. The official scout record remains the handbook. Unless you find it to not be so with a quote from the Guide to Advancement.

I haven't seen it in the G2A, just keep hearing that Scoutbook is the official record in various places, like this Bryan on Scouting post:

Quote

Once Scoutbook Lite is released, the Scoutbook database will become the official record of advancement for the BSA.

https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2017/12/21/scoutbook-lite-to-replace-bsas-internet-advancement-platform-in-early-2018/

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

My flip phone would beg to differ! So would my iPad 2.0. So would the wilderness where there is no reception! There's lots of places where the handbook works and Scoutbook doesn't. (There are also places where both work poorly, e.g. in aquatics areas, at pen-freezing temps,  and under the usual torrential downpours that involve camping with me. But, in most of those scenarios, it's easier to set up shelter where a HB works and SP doesn't.) It's far more reliable for a scout to get the sign-off in the book, then later touch base with the SM/ASM whose device can check it off.

We still use the HB as primary. Even the BSA uniform inspection sheet mention's it, and not SB, on uniform inspection.

Although, if one of our scouts isn't wearing his handbook, there's no way that the SPL's docking them 15 points on uniform inspection.

I didn't mean which one is more practical, which I agree the printed book is more reliable for out in the woods. But my understanding is that the handbook is no longer the "official" record of scout advancement, Scoutbook is. Aside from the challenges of a digital record-keeping solution, and that the handbook is still a required resource along with the uniform, the line we've been getting at least here in our Council is that Scoutbook is the official record.

9 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

The book is the proper documentation for rank advancement...

Is it? I've been under the impression that Scoutbook is now the official document/record.

Think about where we were a month ago with this thing. In one month, so much has changed.

So thinking about where we'll be with it in July and August is impossible.

A lot of folks (myself included) were voicing concern about PR before the Chapter 11 filing. Now it just seems like it's too little too late. The BSA had the chance to respond strongly and convincingly to the accusations of continued abuse, continued failure to better protect scouts, and continued lack of vetting of leaders. All of which is absolutely false, but the BSA dropped the ball when given the chance to respond. Front-page news articles made these kinds of false accusations and the BSA offered up weak, canned responses. They could have (and should have) responded with the stuff they have come out with since the bankruptcy filing, about how scouting is safer than ever in the BSA, how we have come so far with expert-informed youth protection policies and training.

Now it just looks like desperate replies to a dire situation. These responses all could have done some good back when we started getting beat up in the press. Now it might just be too late. It's hard to battle back from bad PR.

On 2/20/2020 at 3:36 PM, codger said:

Frankly, I am very frustrated that the "natural" response from 90% of the commentators, Scouts, victims and Scouting volunteers is to automatically assert that the natural remedy to heinous crimes of abuse committed by, in some cases, people that are dead or long since removed from their positions within Scouting, is to take money from todays' innocent children and volunteers and give it to the victims...

I think the logic is that this should have happened long ago, so if this process results in the BSA losing everything than it was just delayed, in essence taking something away from today's scouts and scouters that should have been gone long ago if these lawsuits had occurred back when they should have.

On 2/20/2020 at 3:36 PM, codger said:

...Well, I never abused anyone, and I resent being asked through ever-increasing financial demands of the organization to subsidize bad actors of the past. 

I think that if we see another dues increase, it will be really hard for anyone to believe that it's not going to be used for lawsuit settlements. Whether that is true or not, it doesn't matter. The optics of this situation have always been the most challenging and potentially harmful part of the whole thing for the BSA. The more that it looks like current members are being hit repeatedly for funds to pay for the abuses of the past, the more we will start to see families leaving.

Even for me it would take some serious thought and soul-searching to decide whether or not to stick with the BSA if they hit us with another dues increase. It's worth some added cost to me to continue scouting for my kids, but everyone has their limits. At some point if dues keep going up and it feels more and more like it's just going to cover legal expenses, I'll have a hard time continuing to support that.

7 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

In the case of Scouting, the BSA may dissolve in this bankruptcy, if so, it will be replaced and Scouting will move on.  IMHO, Scouting is an idea, a philosophy of life, not an organization. 

Another $0.02,

Scouting already works in the US without the BSA. It's the Baden-Powell Service Association. All volunteer-run, no "National", other than a national Quartermaster for manufacturing and distributing badges and books, no Council, no District, just the local units and a handful of folks who oversea things regionally. Who are also volunteers. The units have to do a lot more on their own without the National resources, but they do it and they deliver a scouting program to their youth.

Scouting exists around the world mostly outside of the confines of the BSA. It certainly could (and does) continue to exist here in the US without the BSA, as long as adults are willing to take on the added burden of being a mostly locally-run organization.

1 minute ago, Jameson76 said:

The optics are going to be the hard part.  The group that BSA needs to sell (and continue to sell) is the new families that traditionally join as Cubs.  Those of us in units that are functioning, this is sort of a non-event

How do we (BSA as a whole) bring in new Scouts (Cubs / Scouts BSA / Etc) when the families not invested in the BSA see the Bankruptcy of the Boy Scouts and the driving reason for Chapter 11 is sex abuse cases.  That is going to be a hard sell....just saying

Precisely the issue I've had with this all along, and that the BSA has (until now) been pretty terrible at reassuring parents that things are not at all like they were 30+ years ago. The lawsuits should be heard, settlements made, compensation paid out. But when all is said and done, will there be a chance for the organization to continue? To survive? Unless the BSA can get ahead of the optics problem, the answer to that is probably "no".

It's unfortunate. While I believe all victims should be heard and compensated, I also very selfishly look at it from the perspective of a parent who has kids just getting started in the organization and realizing that they might not have much of an opportunity to be scouts because of the actions of some horrible men decades ago.

And then as a leader, knowing what we go through in the name of youth protection, and knowing that today's BSA is truly a top-notch organization when it comes to youth protection, it's saddening that all of it might not be enough to escape the stigma of the past. Recent articles have labeled the BSA as a "haven for pedophiles" because of past abuse cases. Between those articles, those kinds statements, and now this bankruptcy filing, I'm not sure how we can ever break free of the notion that we're this evil organization, a place for abusers to thrive.

In June we had our annual Pack recruitment event/open-house, and attendance was less than the year before. I wonder what attendance/interest will look like this year...

The BSA instagram account is a case study in uniform policing gone wild. The BSA posts a photo and the majority of the comments seem to be about badge placement, tucked in shirts, sashes, and various other pieces of the uniform that are identified as incorrectly placed, out of place, or otherwise lacking in some way. An Eagle Scout was recently harshly criticized for having a Star rank patch on his uniform. How about congratulating the new Eagle instead of criticizing his uniform?

My Pack has some uniform police among the leadership, and it's infuriating. They're the same folks who show up half the time in jeans but then are quick to point out a uniforming misstep on someone else when they just happen to have showed up with the official pants on that night. 

We do Pack meeting uniform inspections. Again, this is a Cub Pack, kids as young as 5 years old. It's absolutely ridiculous, and I refuse to participate.

I've pulled away from the uniform over the years and I think it's partially because I refuse to abide by the high standards that others impose. The uniform is important, it serves a purpose, and it is one of the aims of Scouting. But like all of the other aims, when taken to excess it can do more harm than good. There is a time and a place to encourage better uniforming, and that time and place is at a Pack meeting subjecting a Tiger scout to a full inspection. Nor is it taking to Instagram to publicly mock and criticize photos of scouts.

At the last Pack function I wore a BSA sweatshirt and neckerchief (I'm a fan of the Bear Grylls look). 😁 I'll continue to minimize my adherence to the uniform policies as long as it remains a tool to unnecessarily criticize others within the organization and hold kids to an unnecessarily harsh standard of wear. I'd rather be out of uniform than have to think about whether someone will comment on some small part of my uniform being out of regulations.

Wonder how many of us would fail it. Likewise, how many of us would fail a written driver's test if we had to take it today.

When you're about to take one of these tests, that's when you are studying the material and have the ability to pass it. The goal is to retain some of the information, not all of it, and to just have a good general understanding of the subject.

I really don't believe it's any indicator of current civic aptitude if a lot of people couldn't pass the test. It's a very specific test, with a lot of information that people past school age really aren't being regularly exposed to.

So if the question is if we should modify the MB to cover the citizenship test material because the country seems to not do well with the test other than at the time people are actually taking the test, then my opinion would be "no". There may be a good reason to include the material in the MB, but this "1 in 3" survey isn't a good reason, if you ask me.

A local scouter recently told me that "stolen valor" exists in scouting, he knows a leader in our district who wears knots he did not earn. I'm still kind of shocked that this happens in scouting, but I guess that's why we have restricted items.

4 hours ago, SSScout said:

Was the person who signed the Blue Card, Approved The Merit Badge,  a bona fide registered in the Council Merit Badge Counselor when the card was signed?  Make the phone call(s).  If the answer to the question is "Yes", shake the Scout's hand and wish him well.   If "No", then smile,  hand him some more Blue Cards and give him a list of approved/registered Merit Badge Counselors for his desired subjects.  

This pretty much gets to the heart of the matter. Simple steps, verify the MBC, and act accordingly.

My guess is that you're not going to be able to verify this MBC, though, not for all 9 badges. How many counselors cover at least 9 badges? And it would be extremely coincidental that this scout just happened to hit up the counselor for the exact 9 badges that he/she covers.

I'm not even faulting the scout here, this was probably all done on some poor advice from the "counselor", a parent, etc. Someone saying, "Hey, I can sign those for you, no problem," and the scout just figures it's all well and good.

52 minutes ago, swilliams said:

...Unless he was registered somewhere else in November of last year, it sounds like he's not a MB counselor at all.

Well if that's the case, you really can't accept the cards. Even if the culture of the troop has been to operate fairly loosely with this kind of thing before, even this has to be too much. 9 MBs, 6 required for Eagle, all signed on the same date by a guy who isn't a MB counselor at all, let alone a counselor for one or any of the particular badges in question, is that right?

And I'm only saying that about the troop culture with any confidence that it's accurate because the sheer number of badges we're talking about has me inclined to think that the only way a scout would even attempt to put through so many questionable blue cards is because the troop has operated this way for a while, it's not that unusual for the scouts in this troop to do this. Either that or it's just one really brave scout, trying to jam 9 badges through like this. 

There are 2 questions I always ask when I hear about a troop struggling with membership numbers, and neither one of them has anything to do with Eagle Scouts.

I ask, "What kind of marketing and promotion does the troop do?", and "How is the troop's relationship with the local Cub Scout Packs?"

There are 3 troops in my area close enough for the scouts from my Pack to consider when they cross over, and each troop has 50-70 scouts. We have very close relationships with those troops, we get Den Chiefs from them, we go to their events when invited, they attend out meeting and activities, and also attend our annual recruitment night event. A healthy Pack recruitment program contributes to a healthy troop program.

I find it rare that troops do any marketing on their own. I applaud the troop in that article making flyers and getting the word out to the community, but it seems like they probably only did that because of dwindling membership. Troops should be doing that regularly, regardless of the number of active members they have.

I'd also suggest that the image portrayed in the flyer isn't ideal. They're using their own photos, which is fine if they're good photos, but I don't think most troop-level flyers and marketing materials really "sell" the program in a way that appeals to kids. Photos of scouts in uniform are nice, to adults, but does that really appeal to kids? I think most kids would prefer not to wear a uniform, it's why scouts always ask us if they can where Class B to whatever upcoming event/activity.

I know packs and troops often like to use their own photos, but the stock photos in the BSA Brand Center are better suited for this purpose. Sure they aren't photos of your scouts, but they are professionally shot and styled in a way that is designed to look great and appeal to potential new members. Less emphasis on the uniform, more casual images, more fun, more beautiful scenery, more color, etc.

Also, try selling more than camping, cooking and leadership. The BSA offers over 130 merit badges, most of them have little to do with camping. I think it's a missed opportunity to present the Scouting program as a place to try things you don't do in school, including camping but certainly not limited to that. I got my first taste of what would become my career in scouting (graphic design) and I'm not a professional camper (although I kind of wish i was). 😀

I know people don't want to think about scouting like we're selling a product, but the reality is, we are selling a product, and we should use any and all available tools to do so. I just don't think the image of dragging a trailer out to a dirt field to sit around a small metal fire ring is going to convince many kids to ask their parents if they can join.