FireStone

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but removing a scout without a reason specific to that scout (behavior, bullying, dangerous actions, etc), is probably not something that a CC can do. They can ask a leader to step down, or eventually remove a leader, but removing a scout without cause seems like a stretch of the CC's authority. At least not without the COR rep being the one to say the scout has to go.

4 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

My Heavens!  This was a tragic accident, thats all.  No one took a rifle and deliberately gunned down a young man. 

It wasn't a murder but that doesn't mean that nothing criminal took place. Negligence can be criminal.

It doesn't sound like anything criminal happened, but any further investigation would hopefully confirm the police findings of an accidental discharge.

20 minutes ago, MattR said:

If this really is the problem then his walking away from scouts would be a shame. I agree with others that it should be his choice but it should be an informed choice.

I think it's a problem, but not the problem in and of itself. It's more a combo of things. He's unhappy with the greater personal responsibility he has in a troop vs. a pack where advancement is almost automatic, you just have to show up and do what you're asked. He also is indicating that he is in scouts because of me, but I know he also has a lot of fun on some of the trips and had an absolute blast at summer camp. So I'm trying to decipher if he feels maybe I got him into this and he's still doing it because of me or if he's doing it because he enjoys it or not.

10 hours ago, qwazse said:

Well, in our troop tents are sacrosanct. Foul language is also treated seriously. Unkind, discourteous, and unclean.

These things can be really discouraging to younger scouts. The net effect in our troop is that older scouts who behave like these don’t get elected into O/A. It sometimes takes a few election cycles for them to elevate their behavior.

But, young scouts might not have the patience for that. I had a relatives switch to Trail Life because behaviors like these went unchecked.

I think he feels like he would be considered a "snitch" if he speaks up. Especially when dealing with kids that are a few years older than him.

I also highly doubt the adult leaders know anything about any of this going on to even be able to try and deal with it. The troop is very much scout-led, which is great, but it also means the adults stay as far away from the scouts as they can, camping in separate areas and unlikely to even know when some tent flipping or bad language is going on.

I'm torn between wanting to step in and mention this to the adults vs. trying to give him space to learn how to navigate some of these social challenges.

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

My first read is that your son is realizing he is growing up, and responsibility/accountability scare the heck out of him.  So he wants to avoid those situations, in the hopes that something else will be available where everything is done for him, like in Cub Scouts.  BTW... very impressive that this young man perceives the actual reasons he doesn't wish to continue, and is able to integrate his feelings and thoughts, then verbalize them.  IMO, most Scouts have difficulty with this...

I'm pretty impressed he was this articulate about it , being a kid that just turned 12 a week ago. I had a few times in my teens when I wanted to quit and I never had a good reason. Usually something like "it's stupid" or "I look like a dork in the uniform". I never had a good reason, but I think I wanted to be too cool for scouts.

Which kind of get to me more in this situation because he has real reasons to not want to continue. Not just angsty pre-teen/teenager stuff.

If I make any kind of deal with him about it, I think I'd like it to be that he completes a full year before making any decisions. Even if he decides to take a break or leave it completely, I'd like him to make that decision based on having experienced more of what it's all about.

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

Oh, and @FireStone, don't be afraid to keep on scouting if you have a fulfilling role in your troop/district, but remember that we're here for you even if you're off the roster for the sake of your son.

I'm not going anywhere, I'm a Den Leader for a Wolf den. And if my daughter sticks with it through Arrow of Light I might be a Troop Founder and SM in a few years, as it doesn't look like anyone else in my town is going to start a girls troop.

2 hours ago, yknot said:

Social issues and bullying can sometimes be the reason for this.  In some troops that have a really hands off attitude this kind of thing can fester along unnoticed and uncorrected. In those cases, it's easier for a kid to drop out than try to stick around because kids, especially younger kids, don't like to complain or talk about other kids. 

I think he's being honest enough with me to know that it could be a social issue, but I'm not seeing that as the main issue at this point. He mentioned that on the last camping trip some younger scouts were messed with a bit. Nothing terrible, just some older scouts shaking the tents late at night, although one tent with some first-year scouts inside was flipped over. My son didn't seem too bothered by it, but it's something I will want to ask him about again.

He also was kind of shocked by a couple of scouts who used some particularly bad language often. I don't doubt that kind of stuff happens, but for my son to even mention it means it was pretty bad.

My son joined a troop in March at crossover from a Pack where he started as a Tiger. He went to summer camp in July, had a blast, didn't finish any merit badges but did the First Year Camper program. That 90 minute car ride home when I picked him up was 90 full minutes of him talking about the week at camp and how much fun he had.

I thought he was hooked.

He did the usual stuff since, went weekend camping, helped at a service project, went on a couple of local hikes, attends the weekly meetings, etc.

He told me over the weekend that he wants to quit. He doesn't like camping (he camped twice per year with Cubs and attended cub resident camp so it's not new to him), and he doesn't like the Troop program being so scout-led. He preferred the Cub Program where he was always told what to do and when to do it. Advancement was almost automatic. Now he has to talk to ASMs and older scouts to get stuff signed off, take more initiative, put himself out there more.

Which of course is exactly the way it should be, and I know the program is designed this way for good reason. He's just struggling with these changes.

He also told me he has only been doing this up to this point because of me, he thinks I want him to earn Eagle.

Is this just a normal adjustment period in the transition from Cub Scouts to Scouts BSA? Or should I be more concerned about the idea that he's only doing this for me?

If it is just first-year Scout transitional bumps in the road, any advice for helping him with this transition?

A simple Swiss Army Knife works well for Bears. But just keep in mind that when your scout crosses over to a troop, they will likely want a different knife. SAKs are less popular with older scouts, and when that first-year Scout sees the older scouts with single-blade locking knives, that's what they will be asking for.

Get something simple to cover the Bear/Webelos years, and then be ready to replace it once they join a Troop.

Also if you happen to have an heirloom knife that was maybe yours or your dad's that you want to pass down to your scout, save it until they are older. I held on to a Swiss Army Knife my dad gave to me 30 years ago just for my son to lose it at his first summer camp with the Troop.

I'm learning the lesson not to give my son anything important or expensive in these early years of troop life. We're already down one knife and one headlamp that just vanished somehow.

Lions was a good idea in theory, but in practice it isn't working. Nor did I really expect it to. I had my daughter skip it and join as a Tiger, which sometimes I think might even still be too young for kids to start in scouts.

Lions is super repetitive with other rank requirements. I have already heard from scouts who joined as tigers saying things like "We did this already," for the stuff that is already repetitive among the Tiger-through-AOL ranks. Lions just adds yet another year of repeated material.

Lions parents end up feeling like they are getting a somewhat limited program but they're still paying full price. And they don't get the benefit of a regular den leader, but are asked to share the responsibility among all of the parents. Which on the one hand can be a good way to figure out who might be the Tiger DL next year. But it also sometimes leaves parents feeling like they are in a lesser program while, again, paying full price.

That said, they're Kindergarteners so the Lions program being a little "light" is probably still the best way to run it. But it just feels like it comes up a bit short for some parents who want their kids to get the full Cub Scout experience right away.

I'm also not seeing great retention numbers from kids who were Lions. I think that Webelo burnout from Lions scouts is very real. And some of the parents have zero interest in helping out the Pack because they seem to think that they did their time as a Lions partner, planned a couple of meetings, and now it's someone else's job.

There really isn't much about the Lions program that makes me think it has been worth it. I feel like we even had better recruiting numbers before Lions, when we only had to recruit Tigers and they were at a better age for starting in Scouting.

Why is anyone upset about this now? There have been video game columns/articles in Scout Life for years, we have merit badges for game design, digital technology, programming, robotics. Bryan on Scouting blogged about video game tournaments for scouts more than a year ago. This is already here and has been for a while.

I don't view tech as antithetical to the spirit of scouting. And devices aren't going away, they are a part of everyday life and I think we need to adapt to using them in a scouting setting.

33 minutes ago, yknot said:

It's really impossible to try and claim that either scouts or sports are more or less expensive than the other because it all depends on how your local activity is run and how involved the youth and parents want to be.  And if you are comparing them, you have to compare true costs and perceived value. I've noticed most scouting cost comparisons leave out the hidden costs of the adult volunteer and fundraising aspects or the fact that uniforms aren't included as they generally are in sports. It's also not true in a lot of places to claim that a sports fee is only good for 8 weeks. League fees often also include participation in things throughout the year like summer pickup games, winter clinics, family days, free tickets to local sporting events, etc. 

There is a range of price points for various activities, and numerous variables. Location, fundraising, included items (some units give neckerchiefs and handbooks to scouts as part of their dues), etc., all factor in.

But all of that considered, I think it's still fair to say that Cub Scouts is at least within that range of average cost relative to any other activity. Personally (and locally) I'd argue that scouting here is cheaper than sports. But to not over generalize, I could amend that to say Cub Scouts locally is no more expensive that most youth sports, and taking into consideration some of those above-mentioned variables, it is often cheaper than other youth activities.

11 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Cub scouting is expensive comparatively.  Easy $100 for a uniform and book.  Add activities that each are priced individually.  etc, etc, etc.  

Floor hockey in the gym is $30 or $40 for several months.  Less work too.

 

Parents tell me that, but I personally don't see it because Cub Scouts is year-long.

$150 annual dues plus trip/activities fees of maybe $100 for the year (our Pack keeps trip fees to $15 or less per family) and let's say $50 in other incidental purchases, I'm looking at $300 for a whole year. My daughter plays soccer and it's over $200 for a season, just a few months.

Cub Scouts on a seasonal/quarterly basis would be $50.

Even if I throw in the $250 summer camp cost, it's $550 per year, $125 per quarter/season.

Sure, $550 is a big chunk of change. But spread out over a year... I couldn't get my kids into any year-long sport or other activity for less.

I'm not sure when it happened but I just realized today that a Cub Scout neckerchief slide is $8. And because they're rank-specific, they only last 1 year (or less when they go flying off a scout's neckerchief as the kids sprint around the Pack meeting room).

I advise new families to buy the Scouts BSA neckerchief slide. It's not Cub Scout uniform code to do so, but whatever. $8 / year for neckerchief slides is ridiculous.

Our Pack decided to create a non-rank-specific neckerchief, costs families $10 each and are really nice, with a big embroidered Pack patch on the back, and they last for many years.

We save families $20 / year per scout just with these neckerchief and slide changes.

The article is weird. Not sure why they suggest NY units go to West Virginia or Ohio instead, when there are plenty of good camps in New Jersey and Pennsylvania with good shooting sports programs.

I'm also not even convinces that the new law will actually shut down shooting sports programs in NY camps. It's unclear from this "article" what exactly the law would do to scout camps in this regard.

8 hours ago, Oldscout448 said:

While roasting  marshmallows last weekend my grandson told me he wants to be an Eagle Scout like his Dad.  He's almost 6.  It hurts knowing  that it probably won't be possible. It's not the rank that  matters, it's realizing that even if scouts survives it will most likely be vastly diminished . Will Philmot be there?  Jamborees?  The OA?  ...

I think it will still be there. I've been hearing predictions about this all going away for longer than my son as been on this planet and he's a Tenderfoot now. If some of those predictions were right he would have never even worn the uniform.

Even if some of those things to do go away, I disagree that it diminishes anything. Lots of Eagles (myself included) never went to a Jamboree, Philmont, etc., or even went to anything outside of our home tristate area. Doesn't mean the rank means any less to me. Different troops have different cultures when it comes to high adventure, big trips, and travel. None of it is a requirement of the rank.

Privately-owned rifles were found at the camp, although no info is available on whether one of those rifles was involved in the accident. The camp policy prohibits outside firearms being brought in to camp. So at a minimum, standard camp firearms policies were not being followed.

My kids' cars make made me cringe at the designs and paint schemes they did. 😅 But they are their cars, so that's how it goes.

The BSA isn't doing us any favors when it comes to all of the fancy stuff kids (and parents) want to add to cars, selling all of the upgrade kits, lights, sirens, etc. They know that most scouts can't install those things themselves, and parents will have to do it. And it just further reinforces the notion that parents should take on a major role in car building. When in reality it should be the opposite, kids lead the build, parents just help as needed and make sure things are done safely.

Seems like scouts and scouters are redefining BSA uniforming on their own by adopting personal standards than then sort of become accepted unofficial regulations. Or eventually become official. I think the friendship knot is one of those things that was being done with neckerchiefs and then the BSA eventually made it an official option for neckerchief wear.

Personally I kind of like some personal touches on uniforms, even if they are out of step with official regs. But of course that's a slippery slope. If you can move the line, you can get rid of the line eventually, too.

I guess I'm also a bit of a hypocrite because there are things that people do definitely bother me to an almost irrational point. Adults wearing oval rank patches being one of them (not talking about the 18-year-old wearing their Eagle patch, talking about middle-age or older adults doing it).

Personally I like the dining hall experience and the break from patrol cooking. Scouts do patrol cooking all year long, summer camp is a break from the routine.

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Backpacking easily comes to mind. Cheaper to do your own than go to Philmont.

Canoeing too.  I know I did a 64 mile canoe trip in the Canadian wilderness for significantly lower price than going to Sommers HA base.

That kind of trip sounds great. I just think it's worth pointing out, it's not what the OP was looking for. At least based on the info given. They wanted a MB camp experience, counselors, etc.

They could work some MB offerings into a backpacking or canoe trip, but if the goal is to create a summer camp experience with a variety of MB offerings, more closely aligned to a typical council camp experience, then I still think that's hard to pull off at a cost savings.

Would be helpful to hear from 5thGenTexan on what exactly the troop is looking for, and if a backpacking or canoe trip would fit with their goals/expectations.

On 8/10/2022 at 10:30 AM, Armymutt said:

If you are looking for a weeklong merit badge factory, then a council camp is your best bet.  If you're looking for adventure, it can best be accomplished elsewhere, and usually for much less.

The OP was looking for an alternative to council camps but with the MBs.

Without the MBs, sure, there are lots of ways to organize an alternative camp. But depending on what you might be looking for in terms of adventure, I'm not convinced that such a camp can be organized at much of a discount over council camps that already offer climbing, ropes courses, boating, mountain biking, ATVs, horseback riding, shooting sports, and other adventurous activities. And include food.

What kind of an adventure trip do you think could be done for less?

I think it would be an absolutely monumental task to try and replicate a summer camp experience offering even half of what most camps offer. Many camps offer over 40 merit badges, finding that many willing and able MBCs for a week and coordinating all of that alone would be tough to pull off.

Summer camps offer a pretty thrifty experience for scouts. From Sunday through Saturday everyone gets 17 meals in total. That probably eats up 1/4 of the camper cost right there. Throw in staff, facilities, equipment, extra programs, health and safety resources, training opportunities, insurance, bikes, boats, rifles, ammo, scoutcraft, games and activities, etc., and the cost is probably a bargain.

6 hours ago, SSScout said:

Some time ago,  (I was an adult then)  I remember seeing a tv ad (and I have not been able to find it online/youtube/etc. ..so much for everything being online).  The ad had three middle school age kids "hanging out". I think they were on bikes...   One says  something like " hey, I made level 18 in <video game XYZQ>  this summer. Pretty cool." Kid #2 says, "Yeah, I got to hang out at my mom and dad's pool".   Kid #3 says  "I hiked and camped  90 miles in the New Mexico mountains. "  Other kids turn and look wistfully at #3.... Cut to scenes at Philmont, ""BSA.  Adventure awaits.""  

Not sure about that one, or how effective it would be with kids. It kind of feels like an ad written by people who think they relate to kids but might actually be missing the mark. Some scouts will prefer the pool or video games sometimes.

It's similar to the anti-phone/screen message we see a lot of now, and I just don't think that comparing two things that kids enjoy and hoping to come out on top of the argument is a good strategy. Too much room for it to backfire.

The BSA has a long and shaky history of trying to appear to be a better alternative to something else. I think they would do better in marketing and advertising to simply say what they are and leave it at that, not make comparisons. Keep it simple.

I had no idea Boy Scout Cigarette Cards were a thing. And now I'm on ebay looking to buy some. 😄