Buffalo Skipper

GKloose spoke of this book in the original thread. I have been interested in this book for some time, but I really don't know much about it. Can anyone who has read this one tell us a little about what it contains? I would also be interested in hearing about other non-BSA published books which could be of value to adult leaders.

Chippewa, it sound like an interesting dynamic. May I ask, how are you handling campouts? Do the patrols camp separately or in close proximity to one another? Who handles transportation? What leaders accompany patrols or troop?

I too would like to hear who runs the PLC. That is not meant as a critical question, but as a curious one. We too are working to build stronger patrols and working like your troop is may be an intersting solution. We are considering not having a troop outing in May, instead promoting individual patrol campouts (with adult leadership to accompany). Our patrols are still too young to camp independently, but that is one of our goals. Like Barry says, the troop will reintroduce an SPL when they feel the need. Historically speaking, I know that the position of SPL was not one which came from the early days of scouting, but I do not know when this concept first took root (or prehaps should I say: "first begain uprooting the patrol method"). Without hijacking this thread, can someone offer when the SPL position was introduced, by whom, and what its original purpose was?

Stosh, why did you start such a divisive discussion? You know better than that. ;-) I would like to say this: We are a fully uniformed troop. The troop maintains a uniform closet. Scouts are expected to wear a full uniform at every troop meeting, SM conference, BOR, traveling to and from every campout, at flag ceremonies, summer camp, etc. All troop members have a full uniform. Adults typically wear a full uniform the entire time during campouts. From when we leave the parking lot on Friday afternoon until we return Sunday afternoon. Not sure what they sleep in, but from when they leave the tent in the morning until they return to their tents in the evening, they are in uniform. All activities with the exception of water activities. Most of the scouts wear their scout pants most of the campout. As a lad in the 70's, I was a member of a troop. There was never any discussion about not wearing the uniform. It was worn at all scout events with the troop neckerchief. We also wore the red beret and socks with garters. Stop finding excuses not to wear the uniform. Stop trying to weasal out of it and just put on the uniform. The only uniform is the full uniform. Any thing less is not a uniform, it is a polyform. As adults, lead by example. Wear the uniform every chance you can in front of the scouts. Remove the excuse it can't tolerate outdoor activities and still function as a dress uniform. Show that it functions in both arenas. Oh, wait, resqman already said that. Well I can't put it any better, and that applies to us perfectly. I would also add that though I welcome anyone to pick up pants from the uniform locker (and return them when they outgrow them) we would purchase a pair for a scout who cannot afford them, but we haven't yet had to. Likewise, if a parent/scout finds a good pair of non-bsa brand pants which is a good color match, that is fine with us. I recently found at a local outdoors/sports store a pair of long Columbias which were an exact color match, quick dry and cut just like a good pair of scout pants. They were on clearance for $14, so I referred every leader I saw for the next 2 weeks to where they were in the store. I know of 4 people who bought them. No one can tell they are not BSA issue. I also own a pair of switchbacks, 2 long pants (BSA), and 2 pair of BSA shorts. I am not seen at functions out of uniform, except on service projects, hiking or boating. Our leaders always set the example, and our scouts are now almost always in a complete uniform.

As for the Star requirement regarding merit badges reads: 3) Earn 6 merit badges, including 4 from the required list for Eagle. There is no mention of "while a First Class scout" in this requirement. "While a First Class scout" does appear in reqirements 4 and 5 on Service project and position of responsibility tenure, which, of course, must be done while a First Class scout. This leaves no room for misinterpretation. I believe that MBs should be self-directed. I have one scout who transferred in who has earned about 30 badges in his 2 years as a boy scout. Though he has been pushed by his parents, this is something he appears to enjoy doing. I wish we had more scouts more interested in merit badges like he is. Interestingly, my son is taking Environmental Science (he needs another ER for Star), and I have tried to encourage him to read his MB book over the weekend before meeting with his counselor this coming Saturday. This morning he asked if he could take his MB book to school because he really thought it was interesting and was enjoying reading it.

Guy is right on with his description. In fact, I would say that looking at the problem from his perspective (that the Webelos den resembles a Boy Scout patrol more than a Cub Scout den) may provide much of your solution. Our pack has had this issue for the past 2 years, and we have found a great solution which has worked well for us. For starters, you are dealing with (Webelos) scouts of 2 different skill levels though both groups are the same age. We welcome them in with our Webelos II group, and use the opportunity to review the material for the Webelos badge for our existing scouts while teaching the new scouts. In fact, we encourage our experienced Webs to teach and work with the new Webelos. This also is like Boy Scout patrols, where less experienced scouts are taught by those who have more expereince. It has worked very well for us. Last year we had 1 (new) scout who stuck with the "agressive" program, and the others worked well with him and they became quite a tight team (like a real patrol). The key is at sign up to make it clear to the parents that you will be delivering a 18 month program in 6 months, which is the absolunte minimun time to complete the Webelos and AOL. If they understand what you are doing (and your willingness to accommodate their son) you are much more likely able to be met with success. This year we have had 2 new scouts in my den do the same thing (Join in the 5th grade and earn AOL in 6 months). I have found reviewing the Webelos Badge and the Fitness and Citizen WAB are is a good thing for the returning Webelos as well, and giving them an opportunity to teach the new scouts really reinforces their comprehension and skills. Both these two new scouts crossed over to the troop last Thursday evening, having joined Cub Scouts in mid-August.

I really feel that for the BSA, knotting is addressed as a sterile activity (excluding Sea Scouting, Pioneering and possibly Climbing). Application is extremely important, which is why I also teach the different types of "tyings": knots, bends and hitches, shortenings and splices. To me, you can't understand how to tie something until you know what you are tying. Knots are where the rope is tied to itself. Categories include: Stopper knots (i.e. thumb knot, figure eight, monkey's fist) Binding knots (i.e. reef (square) knot, surgeon's knot, whippings and lashings) Fixed loop knots (i.e. bowline, alpine butterfly) Slip loop knots ((i.e. slip knot, running bowline) Bends join the ends of two ropes. (i.e. sheet bend, carrick bend, racking bend) Hitches join the rope to an object. Middle hitches (i.e. clove hitch, marlinspike hitch) End hitches (i.e. timber hitch, two half hitches, rollling hitch) Shortenings take up slack in a rope. (i.e. bellringers knot, sheepshank) Splices work with the constituent parts of the rope. (i.e. eye splice, end splice, long and short splices) Of course there are exceptions to any rule, something the English language excels at. For instance, the Fishermans Knot, ties together two pieces of rope so it is actually a bend; and the Fishermans Bend, which is often used to tie an anchor to a line is actually a hitch. I have a great chart explaining all this. When the troop gets a website set up, we will include basic and advanced knot pages, but we arent there yet. I have about 35 MB of knot related files and charts on my computer.

Youth protection guidelines and Two deep leadership are two completely different concepts for two completely different situations. I agree that an "electronic" paper trail exists for all emails. When I have scoutmaster conferences with a scout, I have neither another adult nor scout sit in with us. But there may be 20 or more of us in the room at the time. The idea of having a third person on the line on the phone is a bit excessive. You can't legislate common sense. Are we trying to teach scouts to be fearful of one-on-one contact? How will they respond when they are 17 and going on a job interview? I guess BSA should change the method to "Adults association" so that they never experience a two person conversation. Come on; it's not rocket surgery.

I like to play with knots. About the only thing I use a square knot for is what it is called in other parts of the world: reefing (reef knot). I also use it with a single piece of line to secure a bundle (just like reefing a sail). I rarely use a sheet bend to join two lines. I always use a double-sheet bend, which is much more secure and less likely to come undone if the line is slackened repeatedly. I teach a bowline to our scouts and show them dozens of uses for it. I always tell them not to tie it around their chest if they need to be rescued, as the weight of their body pulling the loop can break ribs. Once they master a bowline, learning a French or Portugese bowline is just one more step, and makes a nice double loop to sit in for an emergency hoist (bosun's chair). And like the double-sheet bend, I teach a water bowline to our scouts, as it provides superior holding underwater and will not untie itself when slackened. We do a fair amount of boating, so I always teach the cleat hitch, which is done correctly only with a full turn around the cleat before beginning the underlooped figure eight. Also when on a boat, I teach scouts the figure eight and encourage them to use it instead of an overhand knot; the overhand knot binds extremely tightly and can be difficult to untie, while the figure 8 loosens easily. The tautline hitch is exclusively taught by the Boy Scouts of America, and is conspicously absent from nearly all non-BSA knot books. The rest of the world uses a different variation called a midshipman's hitch, which holds more stongly. The only difference between the two is that the last loop on the midshipmans hitch reverses direction, with the running end exiting outward instead of in. When I teach knots, I work hard to give the scouts real and practical uses they will encouter while camping, tieing down a trailer, making a tent guy or other common application. If you give them a purpose for a knot, I have found that they remember it better.

I agree, this is a legit fundraiser, but I have neither the time nor the interest in this. I also felt that promoting the new Lifetime NESA member Eagle knot was another means of fundraising. I admire what NESA does, but I cannor afford to support every organization or Scouting project simply doing good work. Just my 2.

They were present in those numbers because of the sustained cold this winter. That is not a normal event. Most of what we experienced was snorkeling in 3-5' of water. I was standing more than I was swimming. We rented wet suits and a pontoon boat at a local marina. The whole trip ran $80/scout. This included all day boat rental, wet suits, gas (900 miles round trip, 2 vehicles), food and camp cost. We stayed at Sand Hill Scout Reservation, about 30 miles south of Crystal River, near Brooksville, FL. Very nice facility for only $25.00/weekend/troop. "Outdoor" hot showers in every camp site (temps for us were in the mid 30s first night, and mid 20s second night--very cold for this area). If you dive, check out these pics. This is an area open only to a select spelunking/diving group which carries their own insurance; it is not even generally known by local scouts:

Dzień dobry, pan. Mwię tylko trochę po Polski. I have not spoken any more than that in 20 years, and I doubt I will ever again be fluent enough to wear an interpreter strip. As you are certainly aware, there are large Polish-American communities in Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo. It may be an idea to contact scout shops in these areas to see if they have a stock of which you may be able to order what you need. Dobre szczęście.

Eagle 92, I dont see what the fuss is about. For the record: #1) I am skilled enough that I only need 30 minutes and a ruler. It has been 3 years since I used a compass. #2) I dont want to get into an argument with our local scout shop manager; I ask when they will have something in before I try to order it. #3) The local scout shop employees know the best sources of information. They have my number on their speed dial. #4) I only use heavy duty, upholstery or button thread, which sometimes can be hard to find in exactly matched colors. But I do have several shades of most colors. #5) Where else would I put it? Be prepared. #6) If I was an active participant on myscouting.org discussion, I probably would. #7) Of course it is bookmarked. How else would I be able to find it immediately? #8) Those tailors are highly overrated. And a lot of them need to have an eye exam. I hand stitch every patch. #9) I have studied the our scout shop managers uniform carefully (from a distance). She does patch sewing on the side. She does an acceptable enough job, but she and I have settled disagreements by going to the insignia guide on more than one occasion. #10) Velcro does have its place on one of my uniforms, but it is really not needed if you have multiple uniforms. #11) My wife sewed her CSP crocked, and I did have to re-sew it. It wasnt funny at all. #12) I am at scout functions 2-3 times a week. I wear a suit to weddings and funerals. #13) All our scouts wear a neckerchief and look marvelous! #14) I am indifferent about Campaign hats. I do like the felt brimmed hat, and wish they would bring back the red beret. #15) I know my air to ground signals, so there is no need to have them on my stick. The French lashing on my grip has 125 of sierra cord. #16) (1) Cub Scout, (3) Boy Scout, (1) Venturing, (3) Sea Scout [Khakis, Whites and Blues], and one multiple use uniform [see #10 above]. #17) Knee socks were around long before the OLD uniform. I still own a pair of the old knee socks with garters and tabs. #18) Is there really any better SM or PL ever? #19) Never happened. #20) Only once #21) No one at the pack had to ask. #22) Someone had to tell them. You cant have that stuff going on forever, now can you? #24) Be prepared, I always say. On the way to summer camp last year, 4 scouts in my car were changing out red numbers to green and several were re-sewing patrol and rank patches. They had fun doing it, too. #26) Our troop neckerchiefs are custom made in two sizes, youth and adult. Everyone fits perfectly. How did you know I spent my bonus on more patches for the neckerchiefs? #27) I did go up before summer camp [see #24 above]. #28) Only once. #30) See #26 above, and I only drink root beer, not diet soda. #32) This has happened to me many times. #33) It is a discrace, isnt it!? #34) I do try to hold my tongue. I dont want to give the wrong impression. #37) ALL cubs, especially Tigers, should be in a full uniform. #38) Well, he was, and frankly, it was embarrassing. #30) My mother in law (rest her soul) only gave me 2 for Christmas, but she was like that. #40(?) No, but she has said that she will bury me in my uniform on more than one occasion (and I dont think she was joking). Really, everyone. It is a uniform, not rocket science. Try to get it right.

We recently had a patrol organize a day hike (3 miles). The invited both the other patrols and 2 Webelos dens to attend. This was certainly an outdoor activity. We also host a Saturday morning "Webelos Fun Day" for area Webelos dens. It is a morning of event competition with events like chariot race, scout law race, tent pitching, obstacle course and other simple eventtent pitching. It is usually held in January to accommodate any Webelos scouts (whether they are crossing to our troop or not) to have an outdoor experience with a troop, if they have not had the opportunity to fill this requirement earlier. But any outdoor activity with a troop should count. Though the definition of "attending" is in the wording, the opportunity to "participate" is a real to recruit. Having Webelos watch isn't going to win many of them over. The other key wording in this is: "as a den." Our Webelos Fun Day is a den-oriented activity, and the recent hike invited whole dens (not individuals) to participate.

Some of the scouts were scared to go in at first, and that is understandable. These things are 10' long and weigh 800-1200 lbs, but I have never encountered so docile a creature. I have hangups about some things here and there, but I never once perceived them as a danger in any way. With the incredible quantities of these creatures in the water, I can only describe the experience of swimming with them in the wild to be surreal.

I also cannot give due to time spent in Europe in the 1980s and the fear of Mad Cow. Sorry if this is off topic, but before I was stationed in Germany, I donated over a gallon of blood and even after I came back I donated on several occasions. I was out of the habit for many years and have now been told I cannot donate. If the risk is that great (I have never heard of anyone in the US or anywhere contracting mad cow disease from a donar), is there no blood donation program in Europe due to concerns of transmitting mad cow disease? Do Europeans need to import their donated blood from contries where there is little or no risk of this catastrophic widespread epidemic?

Every other year since 2000, our troop does a Manatee trip. We drive down to Crystal River (8 hours) and take a day swimming with manatees. This year was the most spectacular ever. We saw an estimated 200-300 manatees. The water was cold, but the wet suits helped. Though there were way too many "tourists" (like us) stirring up the sediments in the morning, when we came back in the afternoon, and we pretty much had the place to ourselves, so the water was crystal clear. Afternoon manatee numbers were down to 50-60 or so, but many of these were as curious about us as we were with them. One even caught up with me from behind and nudged me (surprised the stew out of me!) and then proceeded to do repeated rolls and ended up going nose-to-nose with me! Too bad I spent the whole roll of film on the water proof camera in the morning when it was cloudy and crowded. Most importanly, of course, the scouts had a great time and most can't wait to come back in 2 years. What made the trip extra special, was the snow day on Friday, and being able to drive 2.5 hours in the snow while heading east after leaving the scout hut. For almost half of our scouts, it was the first time they had ever seen snow. Nothing stuck, but that was beside the point. We had snow and manatees in less than 24 hours.

I want to address the specific issue with my troop, but I also want to keep this a broad discussion, bringing in different points of experience from different situations. Thank you all for your contributions. For starters, 2 weeks ago, the PLC created a 3rd patrol from the 2 current patrols. Volunteers stepped out to form the new patrol, and conveniently it created (at least on paper) 3 very balanced patrols in terms of age, rank and experience (read time) in scouting. These new patrols had 3 members each. This was done to give the new patrols time to gel and begin operating as a team. We have 13 confirmed new scouts joining in the next 3 weeks, so this would give these scouts a chance to see 3 functioning patrols to choose which they wanted to join. I wont go into the reasons the PLC decided not to have a NSP this yearthat is not what this discussion is about. All 3 PLs (including our newest) and a few of the other scouts have been through (Kudus) Green Bar training, far more extensive than the regular BSA TLT. TLT will be offered in the spring as a refresher. All those participating, including our wayward PL, attended all sessions of green bar. Counseling is not what I have been doing as a primary response. Training is first, and discussions are what have evolved after that. The PL changed the name of the patrol in September, but only 2 weeks ago made a flag, and they still do not have patrol patches or a patrol yell. They have had no patrol meetings (outside of a troop meeting) and no advancement in the patrol for 6 months. Our troop rules require that in order to run for PL, a scout must be at least 1st Class and have the approval of the SM. This scout is all that is left of a group of scouts who began 2 and 3 years ago. They made a series of poor choices for PL and the patrol(s) suffered, and now all but 2 of these scouts have left (the other transferred to another patrol this year). This scout and one other are both 2nd Class, but are only missing 1 requirement each to be ready for 1st Class. The PLs dad keeps asking me what I am doing to see that he finishes up, and I keep reminding him that I am still waiting for his son finish the requirements and come up to me ready to advance. He has missed 4 outings since September where he would have had the clear opportunity to complete his lacking requirement, and many opportunities in advance of that over the past 2 years. I know that he is involved with both Soccer and Swimming (though he will not meet with his swimming MBC to finish requirements), so I expect his participation over the next few months will be less than stellar. He will also be required to attend 2 or 3 contingent troop campouts for the National Jamboree, at least one of which is in conflict with the Troop camping schedule. He will also miss one of our summer camps while on the NJ, but I do not want to hold the NJ over his head. When elections take place next month, there will likely be 4 new scouts and 3 experienced scouts in the patrol. Assuming the two 2nd Class scouts complete their requirements, we will have 2 eligible scouts to run for PL. The new scouts will have not a clue of his record with the patrol. This makes the election a little bit blind. Next September and March, the extra experienced scouts will make that more practical. It is one of the accepted evils of our current troop dynamic, which we are seeking to change, but that only comes with time.

For a Patrol Leader, how little is too little? What do you do when a PL is not doing his job; you counsel him and he does only the absolute least he can to get away with being PL? We have a PL who has attended only 2 campouts since being elected in September, and on one of those he was the only member of his patrol. Advancement is not the point of this discussion. I want to address this from a standpoint of leadership. He feels he has done a reasonable job, and expects to run again next month. Three scouts in his patrol have quit the troop since September, but I do not feel he "ran them off"; and yet he seems to be obliviouis that they are even gone. I do not feel I should support him to run again as PL. What do you do with scouts who just do too little, especially when they do not respond at all to counseling?

Try for the link to the troop's 100th anniversery: http://www.oksenate.gov/news/press_releases/press_releases_2009/pr20090505c.html(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Thanks SctDad. I used that one as a CM at a B&G several years ago. Certainly appropriate, as is a discussion on Arthur Eldred. Interestingly, one of my co-workers stepped into my office as I was about to leave yesterday, and he commented on BSAs 100th Anniversery. He was a cub scout before I was born and a boy scout for several years as well. He occasionally asks me about the troop, and I occasionally bore him with a good story (he is a part time preacher, so he always enjoys a good story, but I digress). A few years ago he was clearing out a desk drawer and found a scrap booked page with clippings from some ancient newspaper. I still had it and realized it was the perfect thing to use for the 100th Anniv. Scoutmaster minute. Dating other articles on the page I can conclude the article dates to September, 1961. It reads: First Boy Scout Troop in U.S.? What is held to be the first Boy Scout troop in America was organized in Pawhuska, Okla. in May 1909. Personnel of the troop, together with its own drum and bugle section is pictured with its founder, Rev. John Mitchell. Before settling in Oklahoma, Rev. Mitchell had been chaplain for Sir Baden-Powell, founder of the Scout movement in England. Two members of the troop still live in Pawhuska: Walter Johnson, former state commissioner for public safety, and Pawhuskas Mayer Joe McGuire. Rev. Mitchell stressed: Do a good turn daily. Johnson recalls: We wore out all the old ladies in Pawhuska, pushing them from one side of the street to the other. The troop received its charter shortly after the Boy Scouts of America was organized in 1910. The accompanying photo also lists 20 scouts and leaders in infantry-looking uniforms with several drums and bugles. The photo is not dated. But I did find this also which supports the 49 year old newspaper clipping:http://www.oksenate.gov/news/press_releases/press_releases_2009/pr20090505c.html This is where I will draw tonight's Scoutmaster Minute. Thanks all.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Thanks Be_Prepared. I always know we can count on you for timely accurate infomation, especially of this nature. LOJ rule!

Not to contradict, but prehaps the "hold" may be on the local level. Everything I have heard from my end says this has been "on" since the get go. To say it is on hold would be somewhat akin to putting "Eagles on hold" pending a discussion about the new leadership positions now offered. Our local leaders have already begun recruiting MBCs and we have the "go" to issue scouts Blue Cards. And Troopmaster just posted an update which now includes these MBs. Though TM is not "official," it is my observation that they operate only with related official program. Just my 2.

I am looking for ideas for a 100th Anniversery Scoutmaster Minute. I do plan to pick up and serve a birthday cake. Ideas on the minute? I can't overdo it, as we also have a committee meeting that night and will probably go for swim test with 3 scouts after the meeting.

Yes, the "milk-a-holic" was very cute, as was the Green Police. I missed the Doritos-dog commercial, as I was in the shop, but my son told me about it and loved it. Being in the Florida panhandle, the Saints are the closest NFL team to us, so there are plenty of Saints fans here. Interestingly, the next closest teams are: 2) Atlanta 3) Jacksonville FL* 4) Nashville 5) Tampa FL* 6) Houston 7) Miami FL*