Buffalo Skipper

Our pack has also used the OA for many years, at least the last 5. But even though most of the local packs use the OA, some have crossovers in a different environment. We do ours at B&G. Others have a post-B&G pack campout (a month or so later) in which the boys crossover to troops invited to camp with them. In the OA ceremony, the Den leader is (presumably) just another parent, and has no part, speaking or silent. It is the Cubmaster who represents the Webelos, and as the Webelos cross the bridge, they stop midway, turn around, salute their cubmaster with the cub scout salute, turn and continue across the bridge and are greeted by the receiving SPL with the Boy Scout handshake. I posted the ceremony about a year ago here: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=228009#id_228074 (This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

>>Editing in a dark room

We have always required permission slips. Last April, we had a scout cut his finger on the trip. Taking him to the hospital, the permission slip was scrutinized and copied before medical treatment was administered. I was glad to have had it. Likewise, our permission slips include (when possible) a specific detail of our activities such as "boating and swimming with manatees" or "rock climing and repelling." This way the parent is understanding and agreeing that the activity is one in which they are giving their permission to participate. And yes, it also seves a very functional purpose as a communication tool. Remember, communication is a two way process. This way we know that the parent is informed of our intent.

A troop camps 12 months a year. One of those camps is a 6-night long term camp, and the remainder is Fri-Sat-Sun camping (2 nights) then a troop would camp 28 nights a year. If a scout makes 2/3 of the campouts then that averages to about 18 nights a year per scout. I would not expect a scout to typically work toward the camping MB at the end of his first year. In fact, I would expect it to often naturally occur sometime during the 3rd year (age 13ish). By then a scout should have experienced certaintly 30 campouts (even if he only makes half the activities). Yes these are average, But I just looked up some stats on Troopmaster: 1 mostly active scout finishing his third year (is working on the camping MB): Scout 1: Attended 69% for a total of 59 nights (excluding lock-ins) 2 mostly active scouts finishing their second year (neither has the camping MB): Scout 1: Attended 58% for a total of 44 nights (excluding lock-ins) Scout 2: Attended 67% for a total of 44 nights (excluding lock-ins) 2 somewhat active scouts finishing their first year (neither has the camping MB): Scout 3: Attended 41% for a total of 15 nights (excluding lock-ins) Scout 4: Attended 41% for a total of 10 nights (excluding lock-ins and did not attend summer camp) 1 very active scout finishing their first year (is working on camping MB): Scout 6: Attended 92% for a total of 29 nights (excluding lock-ins) Sure we have a fairly active troop, but look at the example of the first year scout who attended only 5 campouts (less than half) and missed summer camp. He is already 1/2 way to the total required for Camping MB. I don't see that as bad at all. On the other hand, we had a 17 year old scout with nearly 90 camping days who, 3 months before his 18th birthday, began working on and completed his Camping MB. It's not rocket surgery, friends. Promote a good program, and the scouts will do what they can. This isn't a race. It happens when it happens.

Having a scout-led troop mean neither that the scouts are suposed to vote on every action which takes place in the troop nor that they run amok like "Lord of the Flies." It means that, with Adult Association and Leadership Development, they mentor scout leaders so that they experience Personal Growth. I (and others) have already said that this is best experienced in the Patrol Method. I would be concerned about this kind of aproach to leadership; and based on your repsonses, I believe you are too. Even if the scouts make the right choice now, it begs the question: When will then next offer of questionable direction be offered to the scouts?

I have not found this online either. But I know that at least a partial description is in the new Boy Scout Handbook.

Brent, you missed (and it appears to be particular relevant here): The object of the patrol method is not so much saving the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy. Robert S. S. Baden-Powell E-Mtns, it seems that you have a pretty clear expectation of what should be happening in the unit regrading the patrol method. This is something you will have to evaluate where it will take your son's troop, what your role will be (as a parent and/or leader); eventually it may be something you will need to discuss with your son and with these things in mind, you will have to make a decision on what you will (or will not) do about it.

This question, by default also begs the answer to "What constitutes Cabin Camping?" Cabin camping is defined as overnighting in an enclosed structure with electrical access. Hence, travel trailers and motor homes, especially when hooked up to power would not count. I agree that this is meant to rule out ambiguous family camp experiences which are now excluded for the camping MB. Curiously, the National Camping Individual award has not been updated, but it does include family experiences and a much more in depth description of what does or does not count: What Counts As Camping -Sleeping in tents. -Staying in rustic cabins (no electricity). -Under the open skies. -You participated in setting up and breaking camp. -You participated in camp chores. -You participated in camping activities (hiking, swimming, nature exploration, conservation projects, etc). -A full day of camping counts as a "day", late arrival and early departure days together count as a "day". -Camping trips you can verify that they took place, (parents, Troop Leader, SPL, signs off). What Doesn't Count As Camping -Luxury motor homes. -Campers with electricity. -Lodges, motels, cabins with electricity. -When you do not participate in setting up or breaking down camp. -When you do not participate in camping type activities. See the National Camping Individual award: http://www.mninter.net/~blkeagle/pubs/nca-i.pdf Understandably, Rank/Merit Badge requirements are different than the National Camping Award reqirements. Interstingly, this description seems to be based on "days", whereas I had always perceived to be a sum of "nights."

20 Scouts is 3 patrols, or two if you divide the inactive scouts between 2 groups of 7 active scouts. SMs don't shop for food. Scouts shop. He needs to prepare them, but even with our 10-12 year old scouts in our young troop, scouts collect cash for food and shop on their own. This teaches them leadership and responsiblity. As I posted earlier, when one removes the Patrol Method, one removes opportunites for personal growth, leadership development and a host of other learning opportunities.

Four years ago, I helped the pack at my children's school with their school night for scouting (not the pack my son is in). There was one particular boy (and father) whom I helped recruit. He stood out because at the same time I "recuited" his neighbor who is a friend of mine. Two years ago, the boy and his father were ATVing (not at a scouting event), and the boy was thrown from the ATV and was killed when his neck was broken. He was wearing a helmet. The boy was in my daughter's class, and she was very upset about it for some time. As a boater, I have come to dislike jetskiis for the same reason that it is obvious that a very large percentage of operators treat the vehicles with a dangerously casual disregard. Rarely do these vehicles injure or kill others; casualties are generally the operator. I will adamently object to these activities; I will not lead them, even if apporoved at some point in the future, and I will not sign a permission slip for my son to partake of these activities.

Four years ago at Wood Badge, I made a beef stew with a red wine in it. I did what I could before hand to render the wine "undrinkable" by putting it in a jar and adding all the premeasured spices (onion salt, garlic salt, pepper, minced onion, etc) direclty to the jar. The recipe turned out great. Afterward, however, I had second thoughts, and decided I would not do that again, as in my opinion, it clearly violated the intent of the "no alcohol" policy in the G2SS. I rarely drink, and this was probably the only time in the past 10 years I have even used alcohol while cooking, but it was my mom's stew recipe, and I was trying to adopt it to the dutch oven. Though it succeeded, I will at most use this for family campouts and not for scouting events.

The Patrol Method is a exactlty that, one of the eight "Methods" of scouting. BP called it the patrol "system" and the BSA and Green Bar Bill adopted the term "Method". If you look at the eight methods of Scouting, the are: Ideals, Patrols, Outdoors, Advancement, Personal Growth, Adult Association, Leadership Development and Uniform. Many youth organizations incororate Ideals, Outdoors, use Adult Association, work toward Leadership Development, commonly use some type uniforming, and many even have a system of advancement. It is the Patrol Method, which is unique to scouting, and without the Patrol Method, you have a generic youth group which is no longer built on the BSAs Scouting Methods. evmori and everyone else is right to say there is no "Troop Method." The troop method is only what is left when you remove the patrol concept from the unit. If you look more closely at these other methods, they are all dependent on the existence of the Patrol Method. Advancement occurs within the patrol, as does Uniforms, Ideals, Leadership Development, and Outdoors is certainly something one best experiences with one's patrol. In fact even Personal Growth and Adult Association are best accomplished through the Patrol Method.

bearshark, Thanks for the clarification. I can understand why the AC may have said this, even if I do not agree with her. I know there are some districts out there (mine is not one of them) which has any "troop MBCs" go through their troop and have their app signed by CC and COR before sumbitting to the district. I agree, however, that the logical place for the parent to start is with the AC, whose job it is to recruit MBCs for the troop (at least in some troops).

My thought on this is both "Yes" and "No." I think there needs to be an expectation (in advance) that success in a position can only happen when one is actively involved. For example a patrol leader who misses 4 of 6 campouts would hardly be seen as doing a good job of leading his patrol. But what if he was working closely with his assistant patrol leader, helped the scouts pack (the trailer) for outings he could not attend, held montly Patrol meetings, had 2 patrol hikes in the same 6 months, completed 2 service projects, and earned 2 National Honor Patrol stars? I would be glad to have a PL like this in my troop. It can be quite subjective. As a SM, I would make my expectations clear in advance. We have a PL contract. It contains no "attendence" requirements, but measures success by the progress of the patrol. Interestingly, our PL contract is signed by the PL and SPL (not the SM). If you have a good SPL, have him work with the PL also, and get the SPLs opinion of the success/progress of his patrol.

If I had been around when that AC had told me that I would have busted out laughing. Guess it was a good thing I wasn't there. So a swimming MBC can't also counsel for Lifesaving? Or a Whitewater MBC can't work with Canoeing? And a Veterinary Medicine MBC cannot also be the MBC for Dog Care or Pets? There can sometimes be extremes regarding this, but it is usually the other extreme, that a MBC is signed up for too many merit badges. I have seen some people which are which are responsible for as many as 30 or more MBs including all the Eagle required. That is too much. If you look at the Merit Badge Application (form 34405), it has 7 numbered lines for Merit Badges to counsel. That, into and of itself should dispell this myth on behalf of the AC. Show her the form: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34405.pdf

I became an adult leader of our Cub Scout Den back in 2003. I earned the CM award in 2005, after which I spent a year working toward the Cub Scouter award. A year later, I became the Pack Trainer as a Wood Badge ticket item; by chance the award came out a couple of months later, so with 1 year toward the Cub Scouter Award, I began working on the 2 year tenure of the Pack Trainer Award. After that, I had stepped into a Den Leader position, where after a year I earned the Den Leader Award. Now that my den has crossed to Boy Scouts, I am again registered as the Pack Trainer, and I still have another 6 months to complete the Cub Scouter Award (service time must total 2 years in any position, but need not be concecutive).

I don't think that it is so far fetched an idea. 2 years ago, I stepped down as Cubmaster (I had recruited and trained my replacement) to take over a den which, inspite of good scouts suffered from having a qualified trained and hardworking Den Leaders quit after each the Tiger, Wolf and Bear years. My wife was the DL for my son's Webelos den, but I stepped into a den the year behind, because these scouts deserved a good leader and I committed to seeing them all to crossover. Only 1 of the boys returned that year, but we recruited in the fall and by the following year we had built up to 6 webelos, all of whom crossed to Boy Scouts a week ago (Dragons! Hear us Roar!). I certainly would have stayed longer if needed were not all of these scouts able to cross last week but that was not necessary, as we worked the program hard for the scouts who joined this school year and these scouts did a great job. Sometimes all you have to do is ask, and the parents will work with you.

The reason the scout was not available was that he was in the car with his mother, going to a relative's house. Both parents left town the next morning for Woodbadge. It wasn't that he couldn't call, it's that it wasn't convenient. The fact is that the scout called me while he was in the car (I believe either just before or after his father's email, which I did not read until the next morning). He said he wanted to take a particular MB with a particular counselor and he needed a SMC and BOR by Monday. I advised him I would look into a counselor for his MB and would gladly meet with him for a BOR (which conveniently is when we have a PLC for which I will be early), but that after the SMC, it is his responsibility to contact the Advancement chair to arrange a BOR (as is our troop procedure). He and I will also spend the day together Saturday (tomorrow) at a district function, so there was no question about having an opportunity to ask me in advance. I have spoken to his parents about this at length in the past. They have repeatedly tried to get him involved with merit badge clinics, like the one at the national scout musuem, about which I could find no information. They wanted to take a bunch of scouts from the troop to Texas so they could work on MBs at some function. I was reluctant to give an answer, as I knew nothing about his program. I did some research and found out little, and they did not offer me any more information. Likewise, the scout never came to me to talk about this, so I dropped it. But it was mentioned by his mother last week with a remark about "How do I expect scouts to earn MBs if the troop doesn't organize classes." Last summer, while registerd with another troop, he earned 11 MBs while at summer camp (yes, in one week), and both parents attended camp with his troop. One scout from that troop earned 5 MBs and the rest earned less. Interstingly, the scout (who is almost 13) has great skills and is an up-and-coming leader in the troop. I have no complaints about his advencement, only his parents' drive in interacting with me.

I have worked hard in our troop to foster a scout-initiated advancement. I expect the scout to initiate requests for Scoutmaster conferences and MB blue cards for counselors. I have made this very clear to the scouts and to the parents. However, one scout's parents just don't seem to get it. I got an email from the father last night requesting a SMC and MB cards for his son. He said: "I know you expect the boys to communicate with you directly, but that isn't possible right now...." I know these parents can be overbearing. I knew that when they trasferred from another troop (part of the reason they left). But I really don't know how to handle this right now. Any ideas?

10.5 is not mentioned specifically, but generally speaking, joining younger than 10.5 can only be accomplished before if a very specific set of circumstances occur and the depending upon the Webelos scout's actual birthday. Boy Scout joining requirement 1 reads: 1) Meet the age requirements. Be a boy who is 11 years old, or one who has completed the fifth grade or earned the Arrow of Light Award and is at least 10 years old, but is not yet 18 years old. So, without completing the Arrow of Light, a boy must be 11 or completed the 5th grade to join a troop. A Webelos may crossover (join a Boy Scout troop). So the question is, what is the age requirement for completing the Arrow of Light? Arrow of Light, requirement 1 reads: 1)Be active in your Webelos den for at least six months since completing the fourth grade (or for at least six months since becoming 10 years old), and earn the Webelos badge. If the Webelos scout completes the 4th grade before his 10th birthday, and he spends an active 6 months over the summer with the den and finishes the AOL requiremnts, it is possible to join before turning 10.5. Generally speaking, most Webelos will be at least 10.5 before they join, but there will be a few exceptions. Remember, too that the Webelos program is intended to run for 18 months. However, last year, we had a small den (of 3) cross over to a troop in Novmember. Two had earned their AOL, but all three were 11 (the non-AOL scout dropped before summer camp, I heard). The other den, mentioned in my pervious post, had one 11 year old who wanted to finish his AOL, and did. His choice. I feel that finishing the Arror of Light, when done as intended, greatly increases a scout's chance success in a troop. But that is just an opinion, based on my experience and not a proven fact.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

I certainly see how this could be seen this way, but I agree that the BS age is 11, the special exception being for those scouts who have completed the program for boy scout preperation called Webelos (culminating with the Arrow of Light). Last year, my wife's Webelos den had one scout who joined Webelos as a 5th grader. He could have crossed as an 11 year old in October even before others who had been in Cub Scouts since Tigers but were not yet 11. She worked up a program which (recently described in other threads) allowed this scout to finish his requirements in the minimum 6 months (Webelos Badge and AOL) and cross with 6 months and a week in Webelos). This year my den had the same thing, but with 2 Webelos scouts crossing with AOL 6 months and 2 days after they joined. On the other hand, we had a 5th grader come to check out the den 1 month ago. He was encouraged to participate, but it was made clear he could not complete his AOL and join. His birthday is the same week of the scout in the original post, and he was encouraged to participate in Webelos until the scouts crossed and then attend his first 2 Boy Scout meetings with a parent attending (visiting Webelos) and cross on is b-day (he was recruited by a boy scout in the troop and the moms are friends, so this was not too farfetched). He did not, however return, and we have been told he will visit the troop after he turns 11.

Eagle92, I get the impression that you have an opinion of GBB. If that is true, I would like to hear how you REALLY feel about him. No, really, don't hold back. ;-) I knew that GBB did many of the BSA books, I was really questioning what he may have written that was not an official BSA publication. Thanks for the list, emb021. I did not realize GBB had a hand in Aids to Scoutmastership; I always thought that was a British pub, directly from BP. GKlose, I consider myself a pragmatist rather than a nolstalgist. I went through scouting in the late 70s and early 80s, so I grew up in the heyday of skill awards. Looking back, I vew them neither fondly, longingly, nor critically. My recollection is that they were a means of teaching basic outdoors skills (camping, cooking, hiking, conservation, environment). I see the "modern" rank requirements as being a sample of the same basic skill sets, just without the instant recognition. This is neither good nor bad, just the way it was and now is. As a young scout, I felt my skills were mediocre, at best--certainly no better than my closest peers. But I camped out every month and cooked every meal of mine on an open fire I built (or assisted with), cleaned up, and cannot recall burning a meal--as a first year scout. I question how many of our first (or second or third) year scouts could do that now. I admire the concepts of the program which work. My interest is to create a program which is effective, teaching scouts skills and responsibilties which will help them grow as citizens and individuals. I greatly admire and am a student of the American "Patrol Method" as well as BPs "Patrol System." I will look for all the tools I can find to best incorporate these programs into a modern application. Thanks all for the ideas.

Stosh, thanks for the perspective of the SPL being like a TG to the patrol leaders. Though that is the way I have generally understood the SPL position to be (at least the main part of it), I neeed the refresher, and yesterday's timing couldn't have been better. Last night, I Life SMC with our SPL, who, admitedly can be bossy. He is the only scout (above the ran of Second Class) who wants the job, so he is, in effect the defacto SPL. He does a reasonable job, but is met sternly by the other scouts (that is another story, not for now). We have just created another patrol and recruited 10 new scouts, doubling the active membership of the troop. I encouraged him to back off from trying to the Troop leader (yes, he sometimes tries to be the PL for every scout, PLs included) and instead be be like a Troop Guide to the PLs, rather than being their "boss." He liked the idea, and even referenced it in his BOR an hour later. It will take some careful mentoring on our part to make it work, but without your explanation, we wouldn't be working toward that now. Thanks.

AvidSM is correct. Approved camping list is an issue for Cub Scout camping, not Boy Scout. If I understand the concept right, it revolves around safety and sanitary issues surrounding elementary age appropriate environments. However, to me, this is one of those gray areas; after speaking to our council PD several years ago, he was completely unfamiliar with this "requirement," which is clearly referenced in BALOO training. Great idea, but for the implementation, the right hand doesn't know that there is a left hand. Asichacker, thanks for the link. I will certainly pass that on to our people when I speak to them next.(This message has been edited by Buffalo Skipper)

Thanks for all the good information. I will look toward adding this to my library, as well as a 3rd ed. SMHB. I was somewhat disappointed that no one recommended BPs Aids to Scoutmastership. Though now available as a pdf at numerous websites, it is an intersting read, and has much useful information. I am not as familiar with Hilcourt as I should be. Did he have any out of BSA publications worth pursuing? Sorry GKlose, it was probably too much coffee yesterday.