Eagle1993
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Posts posted by Eagle1993
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2 hours ago, scoutldr said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the time intervals for T-2-1 can all run concurrently, right? (Meaning, you can be working on the First Class Fitness, while still a Tenderfood) Back in my day, you could not start work on a rank requirements until you had been awarded the previous rank. The "First Class First Year" push changed all that...not in a good way, in my opinion.
Correct, except the fitness requirements are in series. So, you cannot count the same 30 days/4 weeks of fitness for T - 2nd - 1st. The fitness is really the primary reason you can't go from cross over to 1st class in 3 - 4 weeks.
I actually think its fine to allow work on the ranks in parallel. The vast majority of my scouts take 2 - 3 years to get to first class anyway (only scouts with a focus on rank can come close to the 12 - 18 months to 1st class). If this was done in series, only the truly rank focused scouts would advance at all.
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53 minutes ago, SSScout said:
Are there still time limits "in rank"? so many months in tenderfoot, etc. ?
Not counting how you actually squeeze in all of the outings, campouts, tracking for personal mgt and fitness. These are the time limits I am aware of.
30 Days - Tenderfoot Fitness
4 Weeks - 2nd Class Fitness
4 Weeks- 1st Class Fitness
4 Months - 1st to Star
6 Months - Star to Life
6 Months - Life to Eagle
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8 hours ago, fred8033 said:
Each scout has their own path. Celebrate his path included scouting.
Probably the best & only way to really consider this story. I was 15yo when I went for my EBOR and faced a crotchety old scouter who thought you should be at least 16 and preferably 17 to earn Eagle. He quizzed me on a number of knots & lashings until he relented. I think I'm becoming that crotchety old scouter.
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1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:
I am concerned because if folks are allowed to not answer questions, and remain part of the lawsuit, then there is no way to verify the false claims from the real ones.
100% agree ... anyone with a claim should be asked to provide information supporting their claim. In addition to false claims, it will be important, regardless of the final amount, to compensate claimants fairly and proportionally. Not all claims will be equal and the payouts to individuals should vary based upon the impact, timing, frequency, etc. of abuse. If someone cannot answer basic questions, they should not be able to file a claim.
That said, BSA should stay out of this. They would lose on PR & financials if they get involved.
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While I am pretty open to earning Eagle Scout early, I still struggle with the 12 year olds. The good news is that it appears he plans to stick with scouts, vs a 12 year old who would earn Eagle and drop. I don't believe I have met a scout, who at 12, would have the leadership I expect of an Eagle Scout ... but I guess some may be out there.
The Eagle Scout project seemed to be a bit on the smaller side (vs what I have seen/approved in my Troop). I know the article says buying & installing benches, but hopefully there was a fair number of youth/adults to lead and some more aspects to the project. It almost looks like the benches cost $3K each ...
He installed two park benches along the Wolf Creek Trail in Grass Valley. In addition – with the help of generous, local donors – he fundraised $3000 to purchase and install a third bench.
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10 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
staying out of the scuffle between their insurers and those representing the victims.
This is a good move. BSA should push the court to close out the bankruptcy & their portion of the funds ASAP. Let the insurance companies & coalition lawyers fight out the final list over time.
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7 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:
Disagree...CO has control of the monies...but agree must be held for Scouting. So, if the CO wants to give it to another unit, that is up to them...
"redeployed as agreed upon by the chartered organization and local council."
It looks like the CO cannot just go off on their own and they need to get agreement with the council. Are any CO's pushing back at simply writing checks to close out their accounts? I wonder how these conversations go.
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36 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:
Grrr...
Several units in our council are not renewing. No inquiries from council on "How can we help to keep you going?" But several Key 3's (that I know) did get emails from council saying "Please write us a check for any remaining unit funds and close your unit bank accounts." With a mention that they would hold those funds in trust for a period of time (not specified) to be given back to the units if and when they rechartered. (Anyone believe that??) No mention of the fact that that money technically belongs to the CO when the unit does not renew.
Grrr...
I haven't seen that yet, but the push on recharter is much less than prior years. We are late, as always, but have seen almost no emails/calls/etc. (We change our COR annually which causes all sorts of issues during charter.)
Technically the assets must be used for scouting (if raised for scouting). See below.
Rules_Regulations_Sept20 (netdna-ssl.com)
Council or Unit Assets Upon Dissolution
Consistent with the Bylaws, in the event of the dissolution of a council or the revocation or lapse of its charter, the Executive Committee may, at its option, authorize the National Council to assume charge of the affairs of the council and continue operation pending reorganization or re-establishment of the council or wind up the business of the council. All funds and property in the possession or control of such council must be applied to the payment of the council’s obligations. Any surplus funds or property may thereafter be administered as deemed to be in the best interest of Scouting.
In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, unit funds and assets must be used to first satisfy any outstanding unit obligations. Any remaining assets obtained with funds raised in the name of Scouting must be redeployed for Scouting use in the local area. Any assets obtained with funds from the chartered organization or parents of registered members may be redeployed as agreed upon by the chartered organization and local council.
Any property or funds acquired by the National Council upon the dissolution of a Scouting unit or local council will be administered so as to make effective, asfar as possible, the intentions and wishes of the donors.
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I don't believe AIS represents all abuse claims. My understanding is that AIS is one member of the TCC, but I could be wrong.
I honestly think this is bad news for National. It may help with councils going forward if some of the claims are invalid. National is going bankrupt regardless of the numbers of claims and the BSA has been clear … they want/need this settled by summer or they risk running out of $ and liquidating.
If the AIS & insurers fight back and forth, this will not be settled any time soon. I fear their fighting will end up taking months of discovery (if not years) burning cash at National and forcing them into liquidation.
AIS (Kosnoff) seems to actually want National BSA to liquidate. He has been vocal about going after councils and insurance companies. I wonder if he sees the National assets as a distraction (, liquidate them so he can go after the bigger pots of $ at insurance companies & councils).
https://reuters.screenocean.com/record/1587144
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/can-the-boy-scouts-survive-a-flood-of-sexual-abuse-claims
I hope I am wrong … perhaps there is a lawyer in the forum that can tell us this is great news!
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IF GSUSA believes scouts, scouting is confusing and BSA has tarnished scouting, they can feel free to change their name to Girl Guides.
In general, it seems like GSUSA does a pretty good job up until 5th grade. After that, we have heard from many girls who have seen their GSUSA Troops fold. Those girls and families know they are signing up for a BSA program, there is no confusion.
I wonder if GSUSA is stoking the fires of this lawsuit and they are seeing news articles all over the place of the first group of female Eagle Scouts and are terrified of its impacts on their recruiting.
After the court decision(s) and bankruptcy, I hope BSA & GSUSA can learn to play well together.
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3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:
I think and I'd want clarity here there are three options.
1) BSA stays out of this, files nothing for or against insurance companies motions. The problem is that the media can and already has tarred BSA with "Denying victims" when it is the insurance companies making the argument.
2) File briefs in support of insurance company motions to reject/disqualify claimants.
3) BSA is somehow compelled by the court to file its statement for or against. I know sometimes the court has the power to ask for other party's input generally.
BSA is quoted as saying they are deeply sorry for the abuse and expects that any irregularities among claims will be addressed as it works toward a settlement to compensate survivors. My guess is they take the path as #1 as I don't see the settlement changing at all. Basically, BSA will give everything it can (or is forced to) regardless of the numbers we are talking about.
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13 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:
This is coming from the Insurance Companies, not BSA/National or the Councils.
This will be the absolute key to the entire thing. Only two options I see.
1) Try to get these claims tossed. This is dangerous for two reasons. First, if they are not settled NOW and someday the state(s) involved open up a look-back window, the claims get revived and the insurance companies, National, and the Council(s) are on the hook. Second, if BSA supports this motion the media campaign will be "BSA fights against victims."
2) BSA accepts the claims (even if the insurance companies won't pay out) and offers some kind of compensation. That's tricky.
The average payout of Catholic Church bankruptcies is ~$680K per plaintiff. Using that average, it would be a $65B settlement if 95,000 claims or $3.4B settlement if 5,000 claims. Either number far exceeds the total assets of the BSA, even if insurance companies pay half.. For the BSA, they are in much better shape with option 2 above. They should offer their best offer they can while still existing and fighting to hold as many assets as possible … but should stay out of fighting individual claims. Why waste legal fees and add to bad press when the end results will likely remain the same.
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At first I thought this might be good news for the BSA, but my fear is that it simply drags out the bankruptcy. It almost doesn’t matter if it is 15,000 or 85,000 ... the BSA only has a fixed amount of assets and most will be lost with either number
The big money might be with the insurance companies. They historically have paid 20 - 80% of the total claims. BSA won’t have billions, even after selling HA based, but the insurance companies will.
I expect they the insurance companies will also see this case as the first of many coming from the look back law changes. So they will fight every claim, even if it takes months to years. In the meantime, BSA will continue to hemorrhage cash. I hope the BSA can settle and let the insurance companies fight the claims separately.
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7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
Great! Only a mere 85,000 left!
Total BSA liquidation (including sale of all HA bases and liquidation of the OA account) = ~$677,000,000
$677,000,000/85,000 = $7964.
They are going after Councils and COs. Guaranteed.
Agreed ...
This article, with only 5,000 claims, was estimating the fund would be on the order of $5B. Assuming insurance would have to cover 70%, BSA would need to come up with $1.5B. I can't imagine BSA not liquidating with 95,000 (or 85,000) claims.
It's over for National. I fully expect 100% liquidation. Sell everything, including trademarks (good bye Eagle Scout). The lawyers will collect their fees and move on to COs & Councils.
Very sad .... I hope I'm wrong, but I'm just waiting to hear the news.
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16 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:
Under bankruptcy law, the BSA pension/pension holders go to the top of the list of creditors in the event of a liquidation
I'm not sure this is true. My understanding is that the pensions would go to the PBGC who would then be an unsecured creditor, competing with all of the remaining unsecured creditors.
Treatment of Pension Plans When an Employer Is in Bankruptcy (friedfrank.com)
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2 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:
IMO, 1972, 1999 was a return to choice. In some cases, a scout could select a preferred "required" merit badge from a subject groups as I did back in the day.
At my EBOR, I would have answered that Lifesaving was most important as I was a lifeguard and rescued a few people. Today, I might say Public Health.
Would I have First Aid, Swimming, Personal Fitness, Cooking merit badges? Nope. First Aid should be a yearly re-certification with each year requiring more skills. Every FC scout should be strong swimmer, physically strong, and a passable patrol cook.
What groups for Eagle required merit badges? Hmmm, one or two from each group- a few required but most scouts select.
Emergencies: Emergency Preparedness, Search and Rescue, Fire Safety, Lifesaving
Outdoor: Camping, Backpacking, Hiking, Wilderness Survival, Orienteering, Pioneering, Canoeing, Kayaking,...
Health (well-being): Safety (add tool safety), Public Health, Medicine, Disabilities Awareness
Personal Finance: Personal Finance
Citizenship: focus on responsibilities and rights. Service, voting, petition, remedies. Interaction with government particularly police..
Environment: Fish&Wildlife Management, Forestry, Environment Science (ugh), Sustainability (ugher), Soil & Water, Nature
Maker skills : Cooking ( as in make family dinner!
), Home Repair, Woodwork, Robotics. Dradting (CAD, Wood carving, Electricity, Plumbing...
OR
Science: Chemistry, Engineering, Architecture, Aviation
my $0.01 for rambling
I love this idea. Allows Scouts to find their own path, but make sure they balance between the various scout skills, oath & law.
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4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:
The proposed solution for this by BSA National is to allow for the first time ever the elimination of COs and instead having units chartered by the local Council. The church/former CO agrees only to provide meeting space and nothing more.
It is my understanding one of the Catholic diocese in Texas has move to this model almost entirely.
Does anyone know if abuse lawsuits against a CO have succeeded in the past or have they been successful with BSA providing coverage? I haven't heard any; however, even the cost of litigation is extremely expensive.
The CO model has been weak for a long time. These lawsuits will likely be the death of the traditional CO.
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Pretty cool way to introduce Scout Life. I wasn't expecting it until I saw it open.
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I went to a college with a NA mascot. Before school started, I attended an orientation day. The student leaders brought us to the football stadium and there were NA protestors outside. We walked past and inside the stadium the student leaders said that our mascot was fully supported by most NAs and only a small group protests. They said that our NA symbol (not mascot) performed a dance and in a costume that was authentic. I was disappointed by the protestors and believed in the university.
Fast forward to half time at the first football game I attended. Out comes our mascot. I looked at his regalia and was a bit suspicious. Then his dance started and I was shocked. It looked nothing like anything I had seen. After the game, I did some research and found the regalia as not native to our area. The dance was not authentic at all. Many native groups were not fans and I had been lied to.
As a boy scout, I earned Indian Lore MB, I was in OA and went to pow wows. Had I not had that experience, I probably wouldn't have had the background to understand NA history. I'm not arguing that BSA is 100% correct and I agree they should relook at OA lodges, ceremonies, MB content. That said, I would not support eliminating all of it. I think teaching NA history and rituals is important.
I would suggest BSA work with NA organizations and tribes. If a tribe works with an OA lodge on a ceremony, that would be approved. NA groups should help update our Indian Lore MB. The benefit to NA groups is a wider group that understands the history and culture of NA tribes.
Again, I know BSA isn't perfect, but it was the only organization/group I was part of that helped provide exposure to NA culture. I would love to see that improve and not eliminated.
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Our Troop is down the past two years; however, I think part of that is losing low/no attendance scouts from our roster. In the past, our Troop meeting attendance was around 40 - 50%. Yesterday it was well over 80%. We used to have some 1 campout only scouts … they are dropping. So, I'm not too concerned with Covid impacts on our Troop, we have been able to manage and I see the light at the end of the tunnel.
The pack is a disaster. We are still going through recharter, but I expect we will end up down 75%. I just talked with a den leader who is dropping. Eagle scout, energized but has no desire to lead a den during Covid. He said he will return with his son after Covid. I think what attracts scouts to Cub Scouts is getting together, in person, working on fun projects, going on hikes & overnights, pinewood derby, etc. Advancement provides minimal to no motivation. Our school is hybrid, so kids get a ton of zoom meetings and have no desire for more.
I told my DE that my goal is simply unit survival at this time (at the pack level). As long as we have enough leaders to get to next fall, we will recruit heavy and I expect within 1 - 2 years or so we will recover. I do think this will damage the Troop over a few years … but both Troop & Pack are large enough to survive.
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19 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
My problem with this is that as of right now it is simply rumor and speculation. Do you have anything to show that in fact this "Second option" is coming or is here? What you are suggesting is an overturning of a BSA system that dates back at least 80 years to the James West days.
I probably should have stated "there is a rumor that …". @gpurlee started the thread and if there are questions, I would recommend posting in that thread as he/she is more likely to be able to answer them.
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On 12/5/2020 at 4:38 PM, David CO said:
My first reaction is to bristle at that suggestion. I would like to see scouting remain volunteer led. This may seem a bit hypocritical of me since I was hired staff. My school paid me to run the scout program, just like it would pay any other coach or administrator.
I would make a distinction between BSA hired staff and Chartered Organization hired staff. As far as I know, there is no rule prohibiting a CO from utilizing its paid staff to lead their scout unit.
I think BSA can and should remain volunteer led, but will be much smaller than the past. I think the BSA organization will need to resize (shrink) as I think society changes are a major headwind.
I do wonder if there is a place for a paid staff led outdoor leadership "scouting" type program. I'm not sure, but do wonder. A program that would charge large per year fees + fees for trips, etc. It would be led by professionally trained staff (perhaps former scouts who were college grads with expertise in outdoor education, forestry, citizenship, etc.). They would run Troops/Packs/etc. One could even see Packs running daily after school programs … essentially taking the place of child care. Troops would be closer to how Troops should operate today, just with professional staff leadership.
I'm not stating this is the correct direction, but I do wonder if there is a market for this type of organization.
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19 pages of emails to inform all of the groups of claimants … wow, this has grown.
Chapter 11 announced
in Issues & Politics
Posted
For us, Covid is having a much bigger impact than the bankruptcy. That said, I do hope the bankruptcy goes away before fall recruiting.
BSA/Councils shouldn't get involved. Let's look at it from Top down. How much can BSA really provide without liquidating. Let's say National sells all land, HA bases, artwork & investments and can create a $1B victims fund. Lets say the councils pitch in $2B for a total fund of $3B.
The average payout by the Catholic church has been over $700K per victim.
So, with a $3B fund, BSA can afford to pay 4,285 victims. Let's say insurance funds help cover some of this, so perhaps we can double the amount of claims we could cover to 8,500 or so.
There are 95,000 claims. BSA's financial situation is not changed if it is 95,000, 50,000, 25,000, 15,000 or even 10,000 claims. They would need to see 85,000+ claims dropped before they could even consider reducing the victims fund.
BSA needs to assume there will be more than 10,000 claims and simply focus on negotiating the settlement amount. That negotiation will be considered by the plaintiff team and basically they will have to decide if its worth fighting it further in court.
The real financial impact will be the insurance companies. Lets say they need to pay out 350,000 per claim. They will care if its 10,000 or 95,000 ($3.5B to $33.3B). They are not going bankrupt (at least yet) and this will also be a precedent for other companies/organizations they insure. I expect insurance companies will not care if fighting this in court for 5 - 10 years will force BSA to liquidate. BSA needs to stay out of this, exit bankruptcy by making their best offer and let the insurance companies figure out if they will pay $30B or $3B over the next decade.