Eagle1993

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I have no idea what the property will sell for

I will say, from my experience, Wisconsin scout property typically sells to logging companies.  They'll go through and remove most of the trees then possibly lease the land for farming.  Its pretty far from populations and the lake is very small ... so not a ton of value of water frontage in this case.

8 minutes ago, elitts said:

For a single property or even a few?

Single.

CFL is essentially the property pictured below.  In Wisconsin, you cannot technically own lakes, but they own the property around the entire lake.  The claim is that it is the 2nd cleanest lake in Wisconsin.  I have no idea what the property will sell for ... my guess its outside my price range.

10 minutes ago, elitts said:

Of course, if the LCs were being really creative, they would look into ways to trim out some of the really valuable parts of their camps to generate funds, while leaving themselves enough land to have a functional camp. 

To me, this makes a ton of sense.  I love private lake camps ... but if the balance is no camp or sharing a lake, I'd go for a shared lake.  Most of the time, scouts do not need the entire shoreline.  We need a waterfront to swim & and boat launch area.  I hope some councils consider this option as it could net a large portion of the camps value while still maintaining a local summer camp.

9 minutes ago, elitts said:

Except you are basically never going to get FAIR MARKET VALUE for most of the properties that get sold for this.  These are all specialty properties that would normally need upwards of 12-24 months (or more) of marketing time to find a buyer; but you can be sure the liquidation time-frame will be much shorter.  What you will get for these properties is usually going to be the FIRE SALE price. 

In the CFL sale, my understanding is that they will list it at FMV.  If it doesn't sell, they will transfer ownership to the trust at FMV.  The trust can then sell the property at FMV in the future.

6 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Not going to pat myself on the back, but she even made note of individual letters she received about the importance of continuing Scouting for future generations, including from survivor claimants.

Its great to hear ... but at $10M/month, it feels like we will lose 3-5 local camps each month this trial goes on.  Hopefully the BSA & TCC lawyers finally sit in a room and don't leave until there is a settlement.  No food, no water, just sit.  Heck .. perhaps we can put them up at a camp site in one of our camps.  They have to make their own fires, cook for themselves and not leave the area until there is a deal. 

11 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Estimation of Claims. Discussion was toward the latter moving to District Court, but sounded like it's very backed up.

This will be interesting if it moves forward.  Has she discussed restricted assets (JP Morgan/Summit)?

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Then, I honestly don't know what happens in bankruptcy when the debtor runs out of $$. I would guess the lawyers would then have a lien on any claims coming out of the bankruptcy.

The law firm needs cash flow as well., I don't see them working for credit.  So ... perhaps JP Morgan can loan the BSA MORE money that will then be spent on lawyers.  Or National can special assess councils (each council needs to provide $1M or they lose their charter).  Or they sell properties to fund legal expenses.  Even at $10M per month, I think the BSA can find cash to support this for a long time (unless they decide a better strategy is to liquidate National).

Anybody watching the zoom of the Chapter 11 hearing today?  Any punches thrown? Just heard that there was an exchange that $100M has been spent on lawyers to date and $150M will be spent by August.  Judge called it "staggering".

6 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I tried. Went crosseyed just shy of going blind. Good golly.

To give you an idea what we are talking about ....

7 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

For what it's worth, it is not a very substantive piece. Basically, insurance will be critical, there are an enormous number of policies with various limits and application, and it's really, really complicated so stay tuned. Nothing you didn't already know.

If you look at the BSA disclosure update you get an idea of how complex this is.  There are insurance policies for every council listed by date over decades.  Take council xyz, they list the insurance policy year by year (some years they changed mid year).  Each of these policies may have caps on total payouts.  Combine this with the National insurance policies and I wonder how this will ever be settled.

Camp Freeland Leslie

A patrol cooking camp.  No pool. No ATVs.  Just a private lake in the middle of Wisconsin.  Great staff and a fun program.  Will be missed. 

I figure we can have a separate thread on a list of bankruptcy losses. This is not speculation of what could happen, but did happen/is happening.    

17 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Just to put the fear of whomever into people that are not taking this seriously and reading/lurking this forum:

1) Three Fires Council in its last annual report indicated $3.3 million in support and revenue and $3.5 million in expenditures.

2) There were 126 abuse claims within Three Fires Council + 2 more that were in multiple councils including Three Fires.

3) Wisconsin's statute of limitations on abuse claims wasn't lifted or changed since 2007! Victims have until they day they reach 35 to file a claim.

What this means is LCs are starting to see the writing on the wall. Camp sell offs are going to be happening at a rapid clip.

And not only that, read this

As of 2018 that was around $2.8 million dollars (Part X, Line 27 "Unrestricted net assets").

So what they are saying is that $2.8 million PLUS the sale of their camp is what is going to be required for the settlement fund. Assume they get $1 for the camp, that means payment for the 126 claims ($2,800,000/126) = $22,222.

If you are with a local council, if you are a local scouter, if you are ANYONE who cares about scouting and reads this: be prepared to lose a LOT of your LC.

 

CFL is a patrol cooking camp.  It turns a profit.  Its well run with great volunteers.  They ran camp during Covid and did it well.  I love that camp and we will be there this summer ...

While Three Fires is not my council, they are well run and have positive balance sheets.

This is what is happening with a settlement that will be rejected.  

Our only hope is that some of today's wealthy individuals buys the camps and keeps them as scout camps.  I can barely type .... I don't know how I am going to tell our scouts.  We already lost our long term in council camp a couple of years ago ... now this.  

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Three Fires Council to close Camp Freeland Leslie; cites need to pay into Settlement Fund.

Remember: we were all told National would pay for it all. No LCs would be impacted. All donated funds would stay local.

Dear Friend of Camp Freeland Leslie,

 

The Boy Scouts of America’s bankruptcy filing and the necessity of a significant local council contribution to a victim’s trust has led the Three Fires Council Board of Directors to make the difficult decision to close Camp Freeland Leslie in Oxford, Wisconsin after the conclusion of the 2021 summer camp season. 

 

Three Fires Council has limited resources and with the need to make a significant contribution to a trust settlement, the Council is left with no other options than to part with CFL. A local real estate firm, which specializes in property sales of this nature, will be engaged to identify and secure a suitable buyer. If a buyer cannot be secured by the time our contribution is required, it is our intent to transfer the title of the property to the Trust. Additionally, the Council will need to contribute a significant amount, if not all, of its unrestricted reserve to this fund. This reserve has been built up over generations from investment income and will not include local Friends of Scouting gifts or permanently restricted endowment gifts from local donors. 

 

This is an emotionally challenging time. The Three Fires Council Board and the BSA have two priorities in this matter:

 

1.  Justly compensate victims of past abuse.

2.  Ensure our ability to continue the mission of the BSA in our local communities. 

 

Both of these objectives require this drastic action. 

 

Like you, a significant number of our executive board members and staff have a personal connection to Camp Freeland Leslie, as Scouts, staffers and more. None of the executive board members took this decision lightly. We must, however, put emotions aside and do what is best for the future of Scouting in Three Fires Council and for our Scouts. 

 

We anticipate multiple special events before the end of this summer’s CFL camp season that will allow all Scouts, alumni and community members to properly celebrate their memories at camp. Camp Freeland Leslie has been an important and impactful piece in the history of the council and its Scouts. We want to ensure that it is properly remembered and honored. 

 

We will hold virtual town hall meetings to answer questions and hear your feedback on this issue. These town halls will be held on Monday, March 22 and Wednesday, March 24 both at 6:30pm on Zoom. To RSVP, please use ThreeFiresCouncil.Org/CFL-Transition. We hope that you will join us for these evenings so that we may help everyone best understand the impacts of this decision. 

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

 

Daniel Zedan                           Anna Tuohy                                                                             Clint Scharff                             

Council President                    Council Commissioner                   Scout Executive

 

 

My local camp!   I’m sick

Very interesting document.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/881153_2391.pdf

From what I understand, the claimants are asking the court to estimate their total damages (bottoms up) year by year.  So, for example, if an average sex abuse claim should be paid off by $500K and there are 84,000 claims the total amount would be $42B.  Then, that would be broken into year by year.  Then they can figure out what National, LC, CO and their insurance companies could pay to hit the $42B.  (Not necessarily $42B, but you get the idea).  Don't forget, the insurance is complex as there are different policies for different years for different groups and each policy has max payouts.

Interesting ... I wonder if the court will support this method.  It could help set a top down target that the BSA & insurance companies need to meet bottoms up (or at least target).  

2 hours ago, fred8033 said:

Yeah.  It's not realistic to represent a massive bankruptcy as an opportune moment to open up.  This is when companies remind employees that each and everything they say and publish can become part of the legal case.  This is far outside corporate leadership and marketing.  It's now a legal game.

 

IMHO, the ONLY way a settlement is reached is if there is trust from the TCC and the claimants that the offer represents a significant portion of local council available assets.  The only way the BSA LCs can establish this trust is through transparency.  Without transparency, I see no way the TCC recommends approval EVER.  Without their approval, there will never be a settlement that includes LCs.

36 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Well, yes and no.

Yes, they wanted to girl membership fees without loosing the boy membership fees.

No, my experience is that until puberty, the female's instinct of "organization" runs all over the male's "lack-of-organization" instinct. 

Once through puberty, growth is more equal and gender competition isn't such an issue. At least from a scouting perspective.

Barry

I think it varies by individual.  We have a coed girl Troop that works alongside our Boy Troop.  

1 - Quiet, very quiet.  Parents pushing her to get Eagle quickly.  Currently star rank and will likely earn Eagle with no PL, ASPL or SPL experience.

2 - Loud, physical.  Plays sports.  Been to the BWCA every summer of her life since 3.  No desire for leadership roles so far.  Going to Philmont.  Does have some push for Eagle as her older brother just missed out, but primary focus has not been advancement.

3- Somewhat quiet, balanced between advancement and hiking activities.  Covid slowing her down a lot (parent concerned).  

4 - New girl, very vocal.  Still getting to know her.

5 - Quiet girl, heavily involved in other activities.  Will likely not have many leadership roles unless she cuts back other activities.

If I had to generalize where I see boys vs girls prioritize.  Boys, in general, seem to prioritize outdoor adventure, then leadership, then advancement (MBs).  The girls, in general, seem to prioritize advancement, then outdoor adventure, then leadership.

So, I do expect girls to have a higher rate of Eagle Scouts, but I don't see them taking over all the leadership positions in a coed Troop.

I hate saying this as there are examples of boys and girls that break that generalization.  I will say boys get much more advancement focused at age 17.5.

4 minutes ago, SilverPalm said:

It wasn't about fear of competing with women - I think the leadership missed the mark when they said that.  But having a male-only space allowed a more relaxed atmosphere, I think - it's hard to articulate - because I wasn't worried about being judged by the opposite sex. 

I think this is a better argument for single gender.  The strong male leaders will do fine when competing against the girls.  

The truth ... they want the girl membership fees without losing any boy membership fees.  So .... they are attempting to create a solution that simply doesn't work.

12 minutes ago, ParkMan said:

Makes me wonder if we never had the abuse lawsuits if the BSA would allow more things like this.  I imagine that with all the abuse suits, the BSA is a bit gun shy on more suits.

When I started, a leader reminded me that the most dangerous activity in the BSA is biking.  Even with helmets they have seen more and worse accidents from biking than anything else.

BSA needs to separate the bumps, bruises from the serious injuries, death or life long psychological scarring.  

Laser tag, dodge ball, cordless screw drivers, etc. .... I highly doubt these result in significant injuries.  I've seen worse injuries in my Troop from a stick and a pot of boiling water. 

Equating water guns,  paint ball and laser tag to actual guns is weak.  I think we can teach gun safety with a  .22 riffle while allowing kids to use water guns on a hot day.   (Side note ... my mother in law forbid play guns in her house.  Her son is now probably the biggest pro NRA guy I know and as kids they made EVERYTHING into a gun.)

Put the real high risk items in G2SS and sex abuse/bulling in YP/B2A.  The rest ... let the scouts have fun under they eye of trained leaders.

3 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

The ruling on the insurers' discovery requests are on the top of my interest list, though it's full day (per RS's link).

My guess ... deferred.  TCC gave the BSA until July? before they push for lawsuits against LCs.  In return, councils must provide details on membership roles, summer camps, units, etc.  TCC can then use this data (and time) to help clean up the claims list.  I wonder if TCC self audits (as they already seemed to have) and identifies possible issues with some claims.

I don't see the judge allowing discovery during that process.  She may just say, lets see where that list is at in August and see if discovery is warranted. 

Too many moving parts otherwise.

Just a guess....

Hearing scheduled tomorrow.  Does anyone know what will be covered?  Any "BIG" decisions or are those coming in the April hearing?

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

It's an excellent piece, in terms of covering the breadth of issues and delving into the asset valuations. I'm surprised other pub's didn't do that analysis. 

I believe the Wall Street Journal & NY TImes have done similar stories.  

https://www.wsj.com/articles/boy-scouts-bankruptcy-roiled-by-suspicions-about-asset-transfers-11594325864

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/19/us/boy-scouts-bankruptcy-assets.html

2 minutes ago, elitts said:

It's not a safety issue I don't think,

Then it shouldn't be in the Youth Protection FAQ.

8 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

So I don't duplicate, has the 3.7.21 USA Today piece been posted here? I had not read it through to the end and found their research on assets and values to be helpful. I hadn't seen it anywhere else, though I certainly could've missed it.  

It was ... probably 50+ pages back.  It really goes to the heart of the issue.  Lack of transparency and trust.  BSA's #1 goal should be building the trust of the TCC & court through full transparency.  Unfortunately, National BSA has issues with transparency & trust so I expect we are headed to a cliff.

16 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Nobody supports that [coed troops]

I can find a few that would disagree with this statement.

I've been in coed activities in high school and college.  I was elected president of NHS in High School.  I was president of my engineering honor society in college.  In my company, I've passed up many of my female colleagues for promotions.  There were girls/women in all of these organizations.   I have never feared competing with girls/women for leadership roles and have managed and reported to women.  I've fired women and hired women.  If boys are to compete in the world, they need to learn this.  The workplace does not look like it did in the 1960s, 70s, 80s, 90s or even early 2000s.

"[coed troops] is not happening." FYI .... coed Troops are happening in the BSA.  He has no clue what is going on in the field.  Go to any camporee, Klondike, summer camp.  Perhaps he needs to be replaced with someone who knows what is actually going on.   

Also ... “Explaining a joke is like dissecting a frog. You understand it better but the frog dies in the process.”