Eagle1993
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Posts posted by Eagle1993
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33 minutes ago, skeptic said:
The financial details, such as they are, are of course completely skewed with Mr. K's opinion, obvious to me and likely those that have read any amount of this over the past month+.
I guess I ask how are they skewed? Do you mean he is pointing out the low end of the settlements?
The numbers published are correct and are similar to other news stories. (In fact, the Seattle times shows a higher number for rape in a close state than what BSA is claiming. In reality, the pay outs are historically low and many councils are keeping the vast majority of their assets, which is why so many claimants are upset with this plan and taking this message to the media.
Here are the numbers in the Seattle Times article
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A rape claim against the Boy Scouts might entitle a survivor to as little as $3,300 under a nationwide proposal filed in court Tuesday.
- In truth, it is actually lower per BSA .. $3,177 for the closed state midpoint
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82,500 claims
- I have heard 84,000 unique claims, so the Seattle times is reporting a lower number
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A Washington survivor who was molested unclothed could collect as little as $9,000 under the proposal.
- Actual midpoint is $8,666 ... so the times is overreporting the BSA#
Every other number in their article appears accurate. Are you saying the councils are paying more than the article is claiming? Is your point the councils do not have the assets they listed in the disclosure? I'm confused.
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A rape claim against the Boy Scouts might entitle a survivor to as little as $3,300 under a nationwide proposal filed in court Tuesday.
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19 hours ago, johnsch322 said:
Tim Kosnoff is looking for survivors looking to talk to national media. Read his Twitter account.
Sounds like we should be watching for updates on/in the Wall Street Journal, Fox News and Hearst owned media based on his Twitter updates.
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Is anyone still working with Scoutlander? I have an issue I would like them to fix and have not been able to get a response. My Troop doesn't use Scoutlander and the public contact info seems to not go anywhere.
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34 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:
So, if National liquidates, does its intellectual property go on the auction block?
And, if so, are the potential buyers limited to those who wish to carry on the Scouting Movement, or could someone buy the intellectual property and simply put it on a shelf to collect dust?
Seems to me National is in the franchise business-it licenses its intellectual property, its name, logos, designs, merit badge pamphlets, handbooks, etc.
Some tycoon buy Philmont?
What is American Scouting without those?
My understanding is on the asset side, everything is sold for the benefit of or transferred directly to creditors. Every HA camp, all intellectual property/trademarks, etc. Everything.
So, Eagle Scout rank ... I expect that would be sold. Possible buyers (Trail Life, GSUSA, some new WOSM org, private company that would want to profit from it somehow). Philmont would be sold. Yes, a tycoon could come up with $70M and buy it and save it for scouting (hopefully).
I believe liquidation will not occur, even if the vote fails. The tone and actions of the judge makes me think this is the last thing she wants. I bet BSA has a back pocket quick exit plan that they could convince the judge to implement via cramdown. My guess is the coalition knows what that plan is and would like to avoid it (as it probably means less money immediately and the path to larger payouts will be through insurance fights & state courts which will take time). The judge will not want to see the BSA liquidate and may determine it is the only exit path.
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1 minute ago, ThenNow said:
I don’t Twitter, Tweet or twiddly deet. What’s he sayin?
Since he made it public, if you are interested:
- text him at 425-830-8201 with "yes" and your phone number/email address
- You do not have to be a AIS client; however, if you are not you should clear this with your lawyer first.
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2 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:
Tim Kosnoff is looking for survivors looking to talk to national media. Read his Twitter account.
Kosnoff is reporting a slew of texts and has a media coordinator. It appears they will be working on going out to local media (and in some cases national).
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Per Maria Chutchian (Reuters Bankruptcy reporter) Judge Silverstein said that individual claimants will have the opportunity to raise any concerns they have about the plan during a January trial if they would like.
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4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
16 million pages.
Or 1,920 trees ... but I digress.
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Here is another
This one is interesting as the man was charged in court in 2000 over abusing teenagers but got a plea deal. That was an a leader of an Explorer unit ... so how could the BSA let him still be a leader in 2018/2019?
QuoteIn August 2000, Rowcliffe was charged with three counts of endangering the welfare of a child in connection with incidents involving three boys — two 16-year-olds and one 15-year-old who he'd met through the Explorer Program of the Holley Fire Department. At the time, police said Rowcliffe gave the three boys haircuts at his residence and then had one of them shower and allowed him to view pornography on the internet.
This man pled guilty in 2020 to CSA at a scout camp.
So ... multiple red flags over several years including one within the BSA.
I think this is where there are questions if BSA can really handle this. This isn't from 1965. Why was this guy a leader after all of these issues (including one within the BSA)?
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4 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:
What I would like to understand, and where the failure of BSA transparency is so acute, is how abuse occurs today in light of YPT rules. I doubt it's in background check failures, there are actually few convicted abusers who are slipping through those cracks. Can anyone give an example that they know of how the abuse occurred despite the YPT rules?
I think this is difficult to answer as many victims may not indicate the abuse until years later.
Here is an example:
QuoteBoy Scout leaders assured him his son would be taken care of.
Their policy did not allow adults to be alone with children at any time, during or away from scouting events.
In his son’s case, that policy was not followed.
His son slept in a tent with only Baker and Baker’s son.
And, Baker had scouts over to his house where others were molested.
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Just now, CynicalScouter said:
I also want to point something out and this brought up several times: there is 0% chance the BSA will be forever end child sexual abuse.
The point is can BSA demonstrate to a judge and jury that it was not NEGLIGENT. Broadly speaking (and I mean broadly) the accusation against BSA in the lawsuits that were filed were
- BSA knew it had a child sexual abuse problem from the start (the IV files existed in some form back to the 1920s) AND DID NOT DO ENOUGH
- BSA knew it had a child sexual abuse problem from the start (the IV files existed in some form back to the 1920s) AND ACTIVELY TRIED TO HIDE IT
- BSA knew it had a child sexual abuse problem from the start (the IV files existed in some form back to the 1920s) AND FAILED TO SUPERVISE VOLUNTEERS
All of these things (modern YPT, adopting whatever the outside group recommends) will weigh against these three claims. But whether in THIS particular case involving THIS particular victim and THIS particular adult volunteer, was BSA nevertheless negligent? TBD.
I actually expect COs to become the target of future lawsuits. I think the weakest link we have is the approval of adult leaders. In some cases, I would not be surprised to see adults working with units beyond 72 hours and are not registered leaders. In other cases, they are registered ... but remember the only signature on the form for unit leaders is the COR. So the COR will be brought into court and asked what he/she did to review/approve the leader (call references, etc.). In many cases, I expect COs could be found negligent in their role in youth protection under the current BSA system.
I'm honestly a bit surprised any CO would sign up for this level of liability. Note that going forward, national BSA has almost no net assets (so probably not that attractive for lawsuits). Many LCs are drained. COs may be the ones targeted and many are paper only meaning they could be found negligent.
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Agenda for today's hearing released. See below.
Debtors’ Motion For Entry of Order (I) Scheduling Certain Dates and Deadlines in
Connection with Confirmation of the Debtors Plan of Reorganization, (II) Establishing
Certain Protocols, and (III) Granting Related Relief (D.I. 2618, filed 4/15/21). -
Brutal article in the Seattle Times. I wouldn’t be surprised to see this repeated nationwide. The payouts are so low … then simply show how much assets the councils are keeping.
https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/times-watchdog/bsa-settlement-proposal/
A rape claim against the Boy Scouts might entitle a survivor to as little as $3,300 under a nationwide proposal filed in court Tuesday.
It’s painful to see,” said Jason Amala, a Seattle-based lawyer whose team represents more than 1,000 claimants, including Thurman and about 50 survivors from Washington. “These numbers are so low because they’re letting the council keep so much of their money.”
The settlement isn’t anywhere close to the gravity of the perpetration,” he said. “Should they come out of bankruptcy solvent? In my opinion, no. They gave that right away long ago.”
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1 minute ago, PeterHopkins said:
I am actually a GSUSA volunteer. There are background checks renewed every two years, but there is no specific youth protection training and no training at all that needs to be renewed on a continuous basis. The huge advantage GSUSA has in this realm is that the adult leaders are overwhelmingly female, and there is scant participation from fathers of the girls. When I attend monthly service unit meetings (roughly district roundtable equivalent), the attendees are typically 20 to 25 women and I. In the overwhelming majority of child sexual abuse cases, the perpetrators are male.
Little League Baseball has a centralized parent organization. If abuse has taken place there on a wide scale, I would expect to see several class-action suits. The publicity would wreck their television contract with ESPN. The paucity of overnight trips in Little League Baseball means far less opportunity for evildoers to abuse children. That's true of all sports. So, if the abuse rate is truly higher, then Scouting has protected its youth much better, even if much better isn't really enough.
I volunteered for GSUSA and 100% agree. I was told I could run cookie sales & I declined. At overnights, I have never heard of a man attending. I know one dad that attended an overnight and he had to sleep in his car in the parking lot far away from the girls.
My son is also involved with NICA. The adults go through training on youth protection and ensure 2 deep and no one on one. Overnights, parents attend and camp with their kids.
BSA seems to be unique to have 11 - 13 year olds (the prime years of abuse) to be without parents camping with adult males. I believe today we have appropriate YPT but I can see in the past why BSA could have a higher incident rate (in terms of youth hours per incident) than many other programs.
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6 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
Uh actually no. BSA is the first and only NFP I have seen that does NOT list its Board on its website.
I wonder why?
P.S. The "vast majority of NFP's out there" are not facing down 82,500 child sexual abuse claims. The only one comparable vaguely is the Catholic Church, and I can find their information for both the national and diocesean leadership on their respective websites.
BSA? Nope.
Hiding, hiding, hiding.
This topic is all over the place. That said, the BSA hasn’t listed it’s board for years … well before this bankruptcy. I expect other reasons are driving that. (I do agree that BSA should be listing their board).
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35 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
The same pro se litigant is demanding document and other discovery from BSA and Crossroads of the West Council and to produce any document related to him for his inspection.
And he wants to personally depose BSA's CFO for at least 6 hours.
He's actually doing it somewhat right. He's made an attempted demand to the council, etc.
And since he is a listed abuse victim, I won't use his name.
Honestly, if he wants a big payout he should just ask to be part of the mediation meetings, sell out the remaining clients and then ask to be paid by BSA for selling them out. Oh, wait, the coalition already took that path.
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24 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
One of the abuse victims is now suing pro se...the TCC, the BSA, the Coalition, the FCR, and everyone else associated with the RSA.
He is demanding at least $4.5 million.
Lonnie was the sole individual who objected to some other settlements. He was in court and talked through his reasoning. The judge was impressed and thanked him. She said that even though she rules against him she finds it helpful to have claimants present and giving voice to their cause and asked him to keep it up.
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16 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
Also keep in mind there was mediation at the end of last week. I keep thinking/expecting a 5-6pm mediators report from out of nowhere right before tomorrow's hearing.
With 2 or 3 signatures?
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18 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
Kosnoff: Coalition is already soliciting (per court's order, not suppose to start until October 15)
Tanc submits request for discovery in t-minus 10, 9, 8, 7...
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I believe tomorrow is the big day in court where the ballot and schedule will be approved, is that correct?
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This is the latest disclosure. Right now, claims inside the statute of limitations are considered open states (regardless of what state it occurred in). The references you see to grey states are for those claims outside the SOL.
This is definitely not legal advice, as @CynicalScouter stated we do our best to talk general aspects of the bankruptcy but cannot give legal advice in specific cases.
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@klleboewelcome to scouter.com. I'm so sorry about your son and hope he can recover from this traumatic experience.
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12 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
I'm sorry folks, but I just literally can NOT get over this. The Coalition is now arguing that ANY examination of the aggregators must end because the judge, in accepting the solicitation plan that allows all 82,500 claimants to vote, has in effect mooted discovery in to HOW those claims were generated.
Somehow I doubt that's what the judge thought she was doing, but who knows at this point.
I see no way this flys. During the hearing there were several discussions about discovery. The plan hasn’t been confirmed. How can they have a confirmation hearing without this discovery?
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7 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:
And what do you know: The Coalition is also objecting to Rule 2004 discovery as well.
They are NOW arguing that with the court's approval of the solicitation plan, Rule 2004 discovery about how the proofs of claim were generated is now done. Forgeries? Misuse of names and signatures? Done. The aggregators are now off the hook.
The argument is, in effect, that now that the court has agreed to allow all 82,500 claimants to vote, there is no legal basis for Century to examine or ask to examine how those claims were generated.
That is garbage. Even the judge stated she needed to get through the disclosure so she could move on to discovery. Will be interesting to see how she rules.
Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese
in Issues & Politics
Posted · Edited by Eagle1993
I understand your point and it is valid, but the failure is on the LCs.
I actually don’t have an issue with Kosnoff in these articles.
My issue is why did the LCs refuse to comment? The Seattle times reached out. That would have been a great opportunity to say look what we do for kids today and any further payment would severely hurt our ability to function. No comment allows articles to be one sided. BSA better have their LC PR groups better prepared in the future.
Below was in the Times article
The Chief Seattle Council, Pacific Harbors Council and Mount Baker Council did not return interview requests.