JosephMD

That darn backspace button, I lost a wall of text.

Anyway, I wouldn't worry too much about it beyond a short discussion about setting the example and how that wasn't the right example to be setting.

If the scouts think he isn't living up to the respnosbilities they expect of their senior patrol leader, they should replace him. 

Whew, had all my transportation and carpooling worked out, and poof, one of my drivers got into an accident last night, they are OK, but we are now short a vehicle.  Fortunately, I had already decided to take my wife's minivan to transport the two youth members who I had already planned to drive.  Looks like I'll have three more.  The lodge will give me transportation funds now in the form of a gas card because I'll be transporting at least 4 youth.  I think I'll spend that buying the youth lunch on the way home on Sunday.

I knew it was a good idea not to go down early.  My son caught a ride with some other scouters who were leaving this morning to help get things set up with some good weather. 

I hope yours is better than the Conclave I went to last weekend. Nothing happened. A few PowerPoint presentations, some prepackaged uncrustables for lunch. Yep that about sums it up. The consensus was it was the worst Conclave anyone had ever been to. Fortunately my lodge was not the host.

 

The most enlightening aspect was a 23 year old ASM was bragging about taking advantage of some "stupid" kid at the patch trading tables.

I will let myself be taken advantage of at the patch auction, but that's because I know the funds benefit good stuff.  That can always be a problem with adults and youth trading patches though.  When I was a youth, our chapter adviser was asked to step down and the word was that unfair patch trading was at least part of the reason.  These days, we have the Internet and its trading groups, my son does it a lot, I really have no idea what he is trading, but he avoids trading anything he doesn't have more than one of unless it gets him something he really wants.

I know our lodge shows team has been working really hard on the entertainment, they've done a great job with shows at the last few fellowships, each being better than the last.  The weather might cooperate enough to keep the shows dry.

As the member of committee who focuses on advancement, the Court of Honor is the night where I get to see my efforts publicly recognized.  Of course, I'm still in the background, just watching as the SPL and the MC for the night do the announcing and awarding of merit badges, rank advancement cards, etc.  It is like getting a pat on the back that nobody else knows about. 

The scouts are still using the same old tired script they've been using since my son first joined.  I suppose at some point they will figure out that there are seven ranks and more than 121 merit badges.  Maybe I'll ask the SPL if he is still enjoying using the same outdated script.

The troop generally has three per year, January, May, & September, with September being the one where a lot of merit badges are awarded as it is the first following summer camp. 

This weekend I will be attending the Section NE6A Conclave at Goshen Scout Reservation Hosted by my lodge, Amangamek-Wipit 470.  I'm looking forward to spending time with over 400 arrowmen, 17 of which are from my chapter.  It is our chapter's largest contingent in a while (since I rejoined at least).  5 adults and 12 youth is not a bad ratio and at least two of our guys have staffing jobs, one on the cook crew and the other plans to put his BSA lifeguard to use staffing the waterfront.

Our lodge is large and it dominated registrations by two to one over the other two lodges combined.  Attendance is down overall from the over 600 who attended the centennial NE6A conclave, that can be explained I suppose by it not being an extra special centennial celebration (will NOAC suffer the same fate?) and because our council camp is a really long drive for everyone, but especially the other two lodges to the east of us.

The weather doesn't look like it will cooperate, with Saturday, the program day being cold and rainy, quite cold for May in the mid Atlantic.  Maybe that'll keep the water skiing line a little shorter!  I have a feeling that after trainings there will be a lot of cards and board games being played. 

Just when I thought my son had taken on as many roles and responsibilities in scouting as he could handle, he goes and accepts the nomination for Venturing Officers Association President.  Son, listen to me, if nobody else is taking the job, maybe there is a reason!  Anyway, that's what I was thinking when he told me how it went down.

Our VOA is weird, our county is split into two districts, neither of which had enough venture scouts to make a VOA viable (it is weak even combined), so they created the County VOA.  I really don't know much about it really, I'm going to leave him to his venturing world and try not to get too involved.

He seems really excited to do it, and is already working on his vision for the next year that he has to deliver at two different roundtables next month on the same night!  I just have a feeling that he has finally exceeded his capacity, but there's nothing like learning the hard way, and he may yet prove me wrong. 

But if BSA IT ever gets their grubby hands on it......

I have noticed that progress has slowed since the BSA acquisition.  It could also be that it corresponded with major program changes that would have required a lot of software work. 

Yes, you award the Webelos badge when the scout has completed the requirements.  Depending on your den and your scouts, it may take them to the end of the school year, or they may finish up early.  I generally subscribe to awarding the badge as soon as possible after the scout has completed the requirements, the first pack meeting after is ideal.

For a unit that has been doing advancement by hand, there are many options out there all with various pros and cons.

​I have been using ScoutBook.com to track troop advancement, and my younger son's webelos advancement.  The big disadvantage to ScoutBook.com, it is online, the big advantage to ScoutBook.com, it is online!

I find that it generally works and is kept up to date with the latest advancment changes.  Parents can be involved in the process, which is important for cub scouts, but of course, they have to be online.  It can do calendar too, e-mails, some simple financial tracking, and so on, but it is really best at advancement tracking. 

ScoutBook.com is about $1 per scout per year, in multiples of 5.  It is not the least expensive solution over time, but it is one that is easy to budget for.  Explaining to parents that registration fee is going up $1 to improve the advancement recordkeeping shouldn't be a hard sell.

My wife is a Pack CC - they use packmaster.  I liked packmaster and troopmaster, but I don't think they really handled the move to online very well and still seems to rely heavily on a complex software package to be installed on your computer.  I had no problem with the software, but often times explaining the intricacies of the installation and configuration to a new den leader just wasn't successful.  The good thing about packmaster was that it was feature rich, it did a lot of things and did them well.  I've forgotten how much it costs, but IIRC, it was still a yearly thing, or every 3 years, or something like that. 

My thought on first class in the first year is that if you have a good program, an active scout who really wants to do it will have enough opprotunities to earn first class in his first year, or at least close.  I just sat on a second and first class board of review for a scout in my son's troop who earned it in about 14 months.  He had finished up everything but a couple of the swimming requirements and became the squeaky wheel with the SPL about getting in some pool time and the SPL announced that he'd be at the YMCA pool on Saturday at 5 and any scout that wanted swimming requirements should join him there.  My son went just for the fun of it, and this scout showed up and completed it, called the SM for his conferences, and had 3 committee members present for his BoR last week.  When a scout has completed his BoR, the SM is notified and presents the cloth rank patch ASAP, in this case, at last Wednesday's meeting.  This Wednesday the troop is holding a court of honor, which was this scout's motivation to finish when he did.

It was a nice course, 5 of us were taking it, I was the only one that wasn't already an ASM

There were three Eagle Scouts in the course, myself, and one new leader who had just recently come from cub scouts.

We skipped some of the games and stuff and replaced it with additional discussion. 

A lot of the time I was thinking to myself, I could totally be teaching this course.

Every scouter has an idea of what a scoutmaster should and shouldn't be doing.  Some good ideas come out and some bad ones.  There was discussion of new scout patrol, standard patrol, and older boy patrol that was part of the official course delivery.  Yes, we all know the advantages, but weigh them against the disadvantages.  There was a some discussion about aged based patrols, so that older scouts and younger scouts weren't mixing.  I don't know if I subscribe to that.  I think that in some ways, scouts naturally segregate by age, but there will always be that older scouts that work well with the younger ones, and younger scouts that advance and grow quickly with the program and fit in better with the older scouts.

Aims & Methods - always surprises me that scouters don't know these, even parents.  Our trainer noted that if it isn't part of the aims and methods, you shouldn't be doing it.  So, would going to see the latest star wars fit the aims and methods, I don't know, but I wouldn't say that if scouts wanted to get together to watch a movie, that they shouldn't.

Talked a little about first class in the first year also.  It still seems to be something that is desired, but less emphasized than I remember it.  The new ST21 requirements make it a little harder to fit that much program into one year, especially when the scouts want to do other fun things as well.  A little discussion on the new program was had all around. 

The role of the troop committee had us laugh a little, with the committee on one side and the SM/ASMs on the other, in reality, I think we know that many of us are wearing hats on both sides of the line, myself included. 

For me, it was worth it to check the box and say, I've done that training. 

My wife is the pack committee chair.  If you ask her, the committee's job is whatever she says the committee's job is, and the same goes for the other roles as well, but she is reasonable.  Basically, the committee sets the direction and plans the program at a high level, and the den leaders / cub master delivers the program and plans the finer details. 

The cub master, for example, his role is to plan and run the pack meeting, it is completely under his authority, whatever he wants to do, which is the expectation that has been set.  The committee has set the time and date for the pack meeting, and secured the meeting place should the cubmaster want to use that. 

Like many packs, hers doesn't have a fully functional stand alone committee, so den leaders, etc are often serving in committee roles as well, which does blur the line a bit.

On to your cubmaster:

Is this guy even trained, been to a pow wow or university of scouting?  Maybe he thought being a cubmaster put him in charge of everything, making all the decisions.  DE, district chair, none of this is in their realm, really, this is an internal pack thing.  those guys are not your bosses, they don't give you direction or have any control.  Internal pack problems looking for a district resource to help better understand the how to resolve it the scout way whould be looking toward their unit commissioner.  The District Chair and Executive should know this. 

Set the expectations for your leaders.  Training is required, not just the online stuff, which Is a great start, but there is so much more to the program, and many councils offer great training beyond the basics.

What national says cubmasters should do: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/510-237.pdf

  (not bad actually)

I was approached the other day by the SM of my son's troop about whether my son and I would be going to summer camp in the spring.  The reason being that my son will be the only scout eligible for OA and it is traditional with the troop that the boys father be inducted into OA as the same time if the father is active and in good standing.  I said we would both would be a camp if at all possible, it was my son's decision about him being in OA, but I had no real interest in belonging.  Thinking I was joking, the SM had a chuckle until I said I serious and didn't see that OA really did anything other than a few extra meetings and campouts each year. 

 

I asked what does OA really do?  I am not talking about ceremonies and such.  I mean what does it offer to me that makes me better able to do for the scouts?  The only answer that the SM was able to give is that OA is supposed to be about service, but what I have understood that in the past few years OA service and the "ordeal" has been straightening rocks on a trail and racking leaves. 

 

Maybe I don't understand, but why?

Eventually, I'll read this whole thread too.  But for now, I'll give my thoughts on the OPs initial questions.

I'll start with, that is a really strange tradition, the father son thing.  Every lodge is different, but what we look for in adults is adults that can help us deliver the OA program.  Can you act as an adviser in some capacity or fill some other adult rule like, health and safety?  Can you spare those extra camping weekends and drive scouts from your chapter / area to and from camp?   I suppose it is our lodge's way of limiting the sash and dash on the adult side of things.  Yes, for those who are active, it is extra meetings, activities, and camp outs.  Any additional program would have that.

What the OA does really depends on your lodge and / or chapter.  Service is the big thing.  Exactly what service depends on some factors, what projects are available, what the youth want to do, and that may be, raking leaves.  My son's first year in the OA went like this (off the top of my head)

Ordeal - the built a new trail in a national park

Section Centennial Conclave - a lot of fun was had, awesome shows, awesome food, over 600 of his fellow arrowmen and he started a new hobby, patch collecting & trading

Lodge Spring Fellowship - more fun, service to camp, set up a lot of tents and cots

Camp Bus Loading (our council's main camp is over 3 hours away, so they have a bus)

National Order of the Arrow Conference - he really lucked into this one picking up a late drop out spot from a neighboring lodge

County summer camp dance demonstration (our county hosts a week of camp locally, geared toward first year and merit badges)

Lodge Fall Fellowship - more fun, his first time on water skis, and service, not sure what he did, might have been making A frames

Webelos Mountain Staff - our chapter runs an annual weekend where Webelos and Patrols camp together (he's actually running that this fall)

Lodge Banquet

They had the Carolinas Indian Seminar on their schedule, but snow cancelled it

Arrow of Light Ceremonies for the cub scouts

Lodge Spring Fellowship (they moved it before the ordeal this year) - service, setting up camp cots

Call Out Ceremony

Ordeal again - Ceremonies team

I'm sure there were a few things I missed.  Maybe this sort of thing wouldn't interest a scout, but it did for me when I was a youth, and my son can't get enough of it! 

The why for a scout I think really comes down to, do they want to do more?  If yes, that's why.

The why for an adult is really is, do I want to help them do more?  If yes, that's why!  And by help, I'm being more general, maybe it is just driving to that camp out, maybe it is helping a scout that rushed through the personal management merit badge handle an actual budget, for an event, events larger than one would expect at the troop level.  Maybe you are a certified Range Safety Officer and help facilitate shooting sports at a fellowship!

For many, especially scouters, it is hard to string together several free weekends in a row, because, well, we already do a lot of scouting on the weekends, so I'm not sure it would help much when it comes to volunteers. 

I have never known anything different than a 5 day week of day camp, from all the way back when I was in a Wolf den in 1987. 

Later, staffing day camp when I was a boy scout was a pretty big deal for me. 

I've had a son go to cub scout day camp continuously for the last 7 years, always been during the week, some times both sons, and a son attending and a son staffing.  This will be the first year my older son doesn't staff as it conflicts with NAYLE. 

I guess it comes down to, how broken is it now?  We all know the phrase, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.  I take it a step further, if it is a little broke, be really sure that you are really fixing it and not breaking it more.

I don't think you have to worry about the preparedness for resident camp as most of the new scout problems at resident camp aren't addressed.

Going back to what I know, some day camp activities require a bit of setup and take down effort.  Ranges come to mind and depending on where your day camp is held, staff may be faced with setting them up and taking them down several times instead of just at the beginning and the end of the week.

If you are talking about this summer's day camp, well, it is mid May, is there really time to adjust everyone to a radical new idea?

One change I could see to day camp that might be helpful is to include a Saturday.  Every one I've ever been to has been M-F, but adding a Saturday I think would be great for parents.  Even if it was shifted from M-F to Tuesday - Saturday.

Isn't there a time frame under which you can complete the badge using the old requirements? I know when they make Cooking required and then changed the requirements a few years later, you had a certain amount of time to complete the badge before you had to switch to the new requirements.

Scouts that started it in 2015 can continue to use the old requirements until the end of 2016 he has completed the badge.

Edit: I must have been thinking ranks

If you're counseling a seasoned hiker, or a very athletic kid (say cross-country, not football), all of this is moot. They'll hike 5 miles for the requirement then run another eight to get ready for whatever tournament they'll be playing in.

 

But, for the average scout, staging is a good practice to learn. So, even though it's not explicit, encourage your scouts to do the shorter hikes first.

 

If he has hiked a lot seems to understand compass and map, but never done land navigation before, encourage him to double down and plan something with his patrol leader where he has to demonstrate those skills. But, if he hasn't mastered map and compass, make sure he goes on well marked paths or with a buddy who is solid in those skills and doesn't worry about navigation. That five miler, as KDD points out, should get knocked out in a couple of hours to build the kids confidence.

I used to suggest that scouts have a couple of 5 mile hikes under their belt, especially the scouts who were a little more round, but I really haven't seen very many of them.  Although I'd still recommend they do a 5 miler or two, the less round scouts generally had no problem going 10 miles cold.  More power, after a long winter indoors, I can have a hard time doing 10 miles these days!

Staging can be helpful, but if that was the mission, wouldn't they require the 20 mile hike be done last?

If they can actually do the 10 miles without a 5 mile first then they have some hiking experience. I don't see any scouts having a problem with only getting credit for 5 especially if it is explained to them that they are joining the group late. Beats waiting for another group to form.

 

A five mile hike is about 2 hours right? Can't they get that in after school some day around town?

Scouts that were hiking this weekend took about 2 hours 45.  In a perfect world, sure, they'd get it in after school, but, they don't.  Not confident enough, don't live in a place that is good for walking, parent won't let them, or whatever.  That's kind of why I've been doing it the way I've been doing it as it tends to be just enough to satisfy everybody by looking like an organized activity, but I didn't do any organizing.  Maybe it was just my way of helping the scouts get around their lack of confidence, mom's anxiety, etc. 

New Requirements (relevant to the discussion)

4 - Take the five following hikes, each on a different day, and each of continuous miles. These hikes MUST be taken in the following order

• One 5-mile hike
• Three 10-mile hikes
• One 15-mile hike

You may stop for as many short rest periods as needed, as well as one meal, during each hike, but not for an extended period (example: overnight). Prepare a written hike plan before each hike and share it with your Scoutmaster or a designee. Include map routes, a clothing and equipment list, and a list of items for a trail lunch. *

Old Requirements

4 - Make a written plan for a 10-mile hike, including map routes, a clothing and equipment list, and a list of items for a trail lunch.

5 - Take five hikes, each on a different day, and each of at least ten continuous miles. You may stop for as many short rest periods as needed, as well as one meal, during each hike, but not for an extended period (example: overnight). Prepare a hike plan for each hike.*

I've been a hiking merit badge counselor for a while now.  Not being one to organize merit badge classes, I tended to just let a couple of scouts hike 10 miles here and there and get a hike plan out of them.  Usually, one scout would plan the hike, and any others that wanted to come along I'd give them some basic info and tell them to write a hike plan.

I think this in order thing is probably going to keep some scouts away from the badge.  If some scouts have done their 5 mile, and someone joins the group late, they won't get credit for a 10 mile hike.  For me, you get to hike 10 miles, so what, you'll get credit for only 5, but scouts, especially younger scouts will probably feel a little cheated, so, they will be less likely to even bother joining in. 

Maybe, I'm just used to the way I've done it.  Not that I've signed hundreds, not even tens of completed blue cards, but I had a system that could be driven by the scouts and they could do it however they wanted. 

Went on a nice 5 mile hike on Saturday though.  One bonus, is that scouts can double dip that hike for their second class requirement if they use a map and compass.  Maybe that was really the plan, but they could have accomplished that without forcing them to be done "in order"  BTW, I didn't copy and paste it, but there is still the 20 mile hike requirement, you can do that first if you want.

Why does bugler drop from the list of Positions of Responsibility for the Eagle rank?  Why only bugler?  Is there an officially stated reason?  What are your thoughts?

Disclosure, my son is a bugler, not a very good one, but, he can do taps and almost play a few other calls.  If I were his SM, I wouldn't count it for anything.  Fortunately, he is a good OA Troop Rep.

The if I were SM my expectations for the bugler PoR would be:

Attend more than half of the troop's camp outs and at sound calls at the direction of the SPL (work with the SPL to understand the calls you know and when they are appropriate)

Play, Reveille & Taps + two other calls from the list used in the bugling merit badge (I'd really like them to be To the Colors and Retreat, and hear them at flags, but I wouldn't be that specific)

Sound like an unreasonable expectation?  Kind of feels like my thoughts on the subject are over adult-ing but then again, for PoR credit, there should be expectations.

I'm kinda in @@Krampus's camp on this one.  A Scout is Thrifty.  I never attended Jamboree as a youth, but I went as 2nd ASM to a contingent.  Yeah, we camped as patrols, but it was still an major adult run operation.  The SPL and ASPL did NOTHING the whole time. The 3rd ASM (one of my Eagle Scouts) and I hung out together.  It was a good experience, but had I paid more than the $650 I paid out, I wouldn't do it again.  At the prices indicated by those on the forum, I would much rather be backpacking Denali or canoeing the Yukon.  It would be cheaper.  A Scout is Thrifty.

You are right when you say it is a major adult run operation.  That is more of a dislike for me than the cost, one of the reasons why I was more interested in being staff than ASM.  Council designed units of a specific make up doesn't seem ideal.

There is the practical side of logistics and timing.  I'm sure we've seen our troops take more than a reasonable amount of time to form a patrol and select a patrol leader, imagine trying to do that with a bunch of scouts from around the council and have it make any sense.  There is a group of scouts from three units that wanted to form into a patrol for jamboree.  They were told no, but that the  council does try to group contingent troops by location, so, they might end up in the same troop / patrol, but they really didn't provide details.  That is all well and good, but what if it were a group of NYLT staffers from all corners of the council that had that idea?

$850 for the "honor" of taking 5 days off of work and travelling to do volunteer work for an organization that makes a profit off of an event like this? No thanks. When you total up what you pay BSA plus your PTO and travel, frankly I'd rather invest the money in a better trip like to Philmont, Seabase or NT. Better yet, head to Alaska and do a high adventure camp there. Far more bang for the buck.

 

$1200 is what you spend. Many other councils the cost is twice that...for one Scout!! I can send my kid to Philmont once and NT once for that same cost. I can send him to Kandersteg for the summer and still have money left over to travel around Europe after I'm done.

 

Financial aid dries up fast and goes to those who know how to work the system, so forget that.

 

As I've said, I've been there twice. Once as a Scout and once as an adult. It is okay but I wouldn't do it again. It checks a box but if I had it to do over I wouldn't do it. I'd save my money and have a truly great adventure that I will fondly remember.

5 days!  It'll be more like 10.  My employer is considering allowing 5 days as overhead that he can write off, but won't decide until right before.

Our council is charging ~$2300 to go to Philmont.  Wow inflation and then some, when I was a scout in 93, I went for $750.  My son wants to follow my footsteps to Philmont, but unless the scouts in his unit really up their tolerance for high adventure, he'll probably do the OA Trail Crew. 

Back to Jamboree - OA Staff 16-20, $450 or $475 - #operationarrow - there's another option for our youth, bypassing your council's overhead.

I've been. Twice. You're better off giving your scout a personal trip elsewhere. For the money spent (if around what I quoted) the value gained is less than what he'd gain elsewhere.

 

It's worth the trip, just not that much.

$850 for staff - it would be interesting to see how they came up with that number.  I know when I do a budget, I'm expected to provide every detail.

$1250 council contingent fee

I'm sure it saves a lot of money being just a few hours by bus from the Summit.  Also, being in the National Capital Area Council, there is no need for a tour of DC as we are around it all the time.  It seems like a lot of further out councils add that to their Jamboree trip.  The $950 participant fee is the bulk of that.  The bus and the swag that I know about can't account for the $300, so I'm sure there is some council overhead in there somewhere. 

It is not cheap, that is for sure, I've spent less on 10 day vacations for 5 of us.  If a scout can't afford to go, many councils have options to help them.  That's why I buy all of those over priced fundraiser patches! 

I don't know how international your national jamborees get but if you do get a lot of contingents I'd say go for it!

 

I took a mixed unit of scouts and explorers from my district here in the UK to the European Jamboree in 2005. It was frankly a life changing experience. Our unit were camped next to a Polish unit one side, who had Israelis the other side of them and Italians the other side with Irish the other side of them. Across the track from us we had Dutch, Swiss, Portuguese and Ugandan units. Also on our sub camp we have Norway, France, Mexico, South Korea and others I've forgotten. That melting pot of cultures and kids, many of who can't speak each other's language but are nevertheless forced to cooperate is like nothing else. Go for it!

I don't know if they'd have that experience, but I do know that my son has penciled in the World Jamboree in 2019 on his schedule.  I'm a little disappointed that his only chance to go to a World Jamboree as a youth and it will be held in the United States, but my wallet will be happier I'm sure.  He has a couple of requirements he has to satisfy for me to help him pay for that.  1, he has to improve his French & 2, I expect him to remain active with his troop through the jamboree, and 3, he will need to have a better fundraising effort than he's had so far for the National Jamboree. 

In conversation in another place, it seems that scouters, and scouts, tend to fall roughly into two camps, Jamboree Johnnies, and Bushcraft Bennies.

 

Jamboree Johnnies will be able to justify these big national camps on all sorts of grounds that would be an anathema to the Bushcraft Bennies.

 

Sounds like a great camp. Enjoy!

 

Ian

I don't think you have be in either camp permanently.  I personally don't like crowds or a lot of people, I'm really not in my element there.  But isn't that one of the things we do to our scouts, take them out of their element so that they can have experiences that they wouldn't ordinarily have?  On the other hand, I've been known to strap a backpack on and head into the woods on an old trail that probably hasn't seen a person all year. 

IIRC the scouts can have more time to complete their rank, as long as they don't start working on the next rank.

An answer to your question though.  Scout Socks!  Their hat or neckerchief / slide for the next level.  Kind of depends, some packs include that in their dues and do it already.