JosephMD

Technically you could earn Scout on your first day while you run your laps for tenderfoot the same day.  + 30 days to complete requirement Tenderfoot requirement 6c, + 28 days to complete 2nd class requirement 7a + 28 days to complete FC requirement 8a. 

Now, hopefully I'm not reading the requirements wrong - here is what I have for FC requirement 1a

Since joining, participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, six of which include overnight camping. These 10 activities do not include troop or patrol meetings. On at least five of the six campouts, spend the night in a tent that you pitch or other structure that you help erect (such as a lean-to, snow cave, or tepee).     

It is my understanding that that includes the activities that you have done in tenderfoot requirement 1b and 2nd class requirement 1a.  so, a total of 6 camp outs for FC.  I take the words "since joining" as the guide there.

Really, the # of days thing is more trivia than anything else though, since in reality, it wouldn't work.

Well, the government didn't shut down and that was an awesome ordeal! 

The best part is that I almost have the budget closed out as well! 

74 new arrowmen + 15 brotherhood, 134 total participants!

There are a lot of great folks that made this Ordeal happen, youth + adult. 

The new requirements have taken me longer to master than I expected.

When I was a scout, you had to be a scout for 1 month, to earn tenderfoot, then tenderfoot for 2 months to earn 2nd class, then 2nd class for 3 months to earn 1st class.

I had my board of reviews almost exactly on this schedule too.  I think part of it was that I started in June of 89 and the book was changing in January of 91.  At least a month of that six was working on first aid all the time.

Now, you would have to have a pretty super troop to make it in 86 days.  The 10 troop activities in about 12 weeks, including six camp outs would probably be the main hold up. 

We have actually found that scout is taking really long for most of the boys.  Requirement 4 is really slowing them down: As an individual or with your patrol, use the EDGE method and mini lessons to teach Internet safety rules, behavior, and "netiquette" to your troop or another patrol

Just letting off a little steam, not in a bad way, just, brain going a mile a minute and felt like typing.

102 candidates were elected or nominated by troops in our district. 

about 65 attended the call out, a little less than I would have liked but still pretty good for a stand alone event that didn't have a camporee attached

we have 76 candidates registered for the ordeal, that is more than I can remember from the last couple of years.  my estimate was only for 75, so, I'm short a lodge flap and handbook.  Fortunately, I have a couple of leftover sashes.

133 total registrations when you add the cook crew, ceremonies team, brotherhood candidates, Elangomats, and general staff

The stress is really coming from the government as the ordeal is at a national park and the rangers would have to remove us Saturday morning if the government shuts down.  But the news of the hour makes that seem a little less likely.  

With so many candidates, the ceremonies will have to be done multiple times.

I know it is what we advisers do, but putting teenagers in charge of a $7500 budget is still hard to wrap my head around.

It's going to be great!

Do you want to know what is rough, observe this done at an OA National Leadership Seminar, with teenagers you know going through all the ups and downs that the game of life produces.  If you think a bunch of middle aged adults shouting WIN ALL YOU CAN creates an atmosphere, imagine a bunch of 16-20 year olds, creating a lot of artificial pressure throughout the game.  Their debrief was great though.  I talked to each of the scouts that were at the course I attended about it and I think they learned what they needed to learn and realize that the entire point was for it to "go wrong".  To lead you have to understand that not everyone is going to follow through, not everyone leaves the meeting with the same understanding of what success is, and you will probably run into someone who will tell you one thing and do another specifically because not only does it give them more points, but widens the spread.  Scouting is often dealing with groups within groups.  Sometimes, you get focused on your small group and the big group suffers because of it, this happens in scouting all the time, be it chapters & lodge in the OA, patrols & troop at the unit level, or any other combination, it happens.  But, the look on a 16 year olds face when he was sure he knew everyone was on the same page and it didn't go the way he thought it would. 

In my course, our patrols figured it out fairly early on, but the score was already lopsided.  We thought we could outsmart the system by agreeing on a couple of rounds to make it more even between us.  Talk about a plan that didn't work, it only made it worse.  Our biggest lesson wasn't even covered in the debrief, that sometimes, you just have to cut your losses and look forward, learn from past mistakes, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm looking forward to being a staffer in the fall, and I'll get to experience the game of life from a third angle, the first being as a woodbadge participant & the second as an adult observer at NLS.  Is Win All You Can the best part of the course, no, and, it isn't really a part that I'm looking forward to, but when we do it, I hope our participants learn the lessons it teaches, and I will do what I can in my role to make sure that happens.

@@ddubois did I run into you on reddit/r/bsa?

I'm the advancement committee in my son's troop.  I get all of the blue cards back from summer camp, completed or not.  The completed ones I record and it is all good.  The partial ones, I make a record of the progress (we use scoutbook.com) and return the blue card to the scout with instructions on finding a counselor and maybe a recommendation for a counselor if it is one I know. 

A lot of MBs remain partial, but some get done.  We have a couple of outstanding cooking partials from before it was required!  And one of the troop ASMs is a counselor for that merit badge!

"JASMTech".   Sounds like a Second Assistant Quarter Master to me.   Don't get me wrong,  there are "no small parts, only small actors".   You may well be the fellow that knows where the fuse box is....  

I was an AQM, and had a good time.  I had to know where anything was, in what box, on what shelf, AND tag along with the CD as the Bugler....

It did seem like an AQM sort of role, but our course format puts it under the program.  And I'm sure I'll be busy. 

YPT & Pack Committe is the minimum.

But who is OK with the minimum?  Clearly, they should take every cub training, go to powwow, university of scouting, wood badge, philmont training center, + one supplemental.

Ok, maybe, something in between would work!  Each person and pack will be different, but one would hope that the pack trainer would lead by example and walk the walk.  Attend the pow wow and university of scouting, hopefully with several of the pack's leaders.

Trainers Edge completley slipped my mind.  This, if for no other reason it gets you connected to your council training committee.

That is interesting. Troop Guide is an entry level position in our council. Doesn't matter really, you are part of a team that makes a difference.

 

Barry

I think that is pretty standard.  My comment was more along the lines of, I'm not ready.  I'm not sure I'm the best fit for a TG or a QM.  A lack of pizazz I guess you could say.  I'm more focused and reserved.  I'm sure they'll cure me of that eventually. 

Is that taking care of the technology for the course?  Regardless, be a part of the fellowship and camaraderie is very energizing. 

That is the job, and assembling slide shows, helping the historian and scribe, making sure projectors and audio systems work.  I'm really looking forward to it.

Congrats!  Will you be serving as Troop Guide?

Oh no, I'm not at that level.  I'm doing what they call JASM Tech, way more my speed.  Maybe one day I will be troop guide material. 

In the NCAC, we have an awesome training course called Back Country Outdoor Leader Skills.  BCOLS.  I really wish that was available to all. 

I used to be a staffer, a good old staffer too...

It is quite an honor to be asked to serve on staff, when I looked at my calendar, I was amazed to only find one conflict with a unit camp out!

I claim these scouts too!  #proud

It sure sounds like the pack needs help. 

All of the pack's leaders should be registered and have taken YPT training, if this isn't happening, something isn't being done right somewhere. 

The main technical dificultiy we run into with online YPT is getting it credited to the right BSA ID, but if you have a printed (or pdf copy) certificate with your name, that is good enough for me.

There is offline YPT but I've never seen it in person.

I do wish all parents would take it, and youth too for that matter.  I know my older son has done it as they required it for day camp staff, even youth. 

Seatbelts is a no brainer, in a scouting context or not, legal or not, there is just a level of common sense that is required when transporting others.  The pack is going to need more drivers.

Two deep leadership and no one on one contact are often confused.  It is fine for a scouter to drive two scouts with no other adults, but can't drive a single scout other than their own son.  

This pack could sure use a pack trainer and the district could probably use a hand on the training committee.

Even the first source conflicts.  If you can't set the facebook group to private, you are exposing full names of youth who may post on it.

I get different answers from different people and different documented sources, some linked above!

Suggestoin, use common sense.  Know your scouts, know their families, what is their preference?  Be flexible.

From the OA:  "Other than defining the length of time needed for a camping activity to be considered a long-term camp*, the National Order of the Arrow Committee leaves the interpretation of the camping requirement to the unit leader."

 

Link to source.

I knew that existed in writing somewhere, I just couldn't find it! 

I would go back just far enough to where the membership and interest was the highest and before a lot of the "new ideas" began on the scene. 

 

If one were to review some of the earlier literature and publications of BSA, one would find that the processes we use today are no where near the intent of processes of the past.  For example, if one wishes to be a FC scout, today all one needs to do is show they have been exposed to scoutcraft knowledge.  In years gone by, the scout had to prove he knew all these requirements all in one test that would take several days.  I do believe at one point the camping MB required 50 nights of camping, today's it's less than half that amount.

 

I do believe that today one can't retest at a BOR.  I believe originally the BOR WAS the test!

I remember my first BoR in 1989, it was terrifying, I was told up front that my knowledge of what I learned would be tested, and it was.  This was probably already against the rules in 1989, but I'll tell you, I could demonstrate any tenderfoot skill, this testing continued through first class.  Even though it was scary at first, I wouldn't change it. 

OK SM's and OA advisors, give me your thoughts.

 

Would you count one of the "spend the night on the aircraft carrier" or "spend the night in the museum" type of activities as a camping night for OA eligibility?  I'm leaning towards no, but checking to see what others may have done.

OA Chapter Adviser here - the bottom line is: it is the Scoutmaster's decision to make.  The OA qualifications do not mention specifics, and we aren't going to make up qualifications as we go.  Some will only count camping nights done in tents, other's will count nights done in "camping structures" like, cabins.  I don't know anyone who would count a hotel room stay, but who knows.

My son's scoutmaster asked me a similar question, and here is a paraphrase of his decision, basically, if there is a furnace, air conditioning, or indoor plumbing, it doesn't count, otherwise, it does.  I think this came up with because of a camp out where the scouts stayed in tree houses, not the fancy things you see on TV, more like a covered deck with some plywood walls and windows. 

I can go back further, when my troop as a youth spent a week sailing each patrol had its on yacht, and we counted that as camping.  Those boats were definitely more comfortable than the tree houses mentioned above.

If I were a scoutmaster, I would probably apply the same standard as my son's unless further clarification to national policy is made.  Basically, use some common sense.

Not only could, but should!  Also, if he earned the arrow of light and/or eagle scout, he should wear those too. 

Ok, need some help.  We are trying to research to find out what is needed to start a new pack.  I know we need a CO, COR, 3 committee members, a cub master & a den leader plus 5 boys.  

 

Who approves the charter?  is it national or the local council?  Can a charter be denied b/c there is already another pack in town?  Does it hinge on the local council's approval?  Are many charters denied?  

Your local council approves the charter

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-402_WB.pdf

A council scout executive is the decision maker on charter approval, and he/she may take input from the local DE.

I don't have statistics on the number of charters denied, but since the number of units is a metric that the professional scouters get measured on, it seems unlikely.  There have been rumblings about denying charters to organizations specifically set up to run a scout unit, like "Friends of Troop 1234" but I haven't heard much about that lately.  Those usually happen when a group of parents and a charter org have a falling out. 

What you really want to do is meet with the district commissioner and district executive, they should be eager to help you.

Ok, so you want to start a pack.  That's great.  Make it a good pack, make a commitment to making it work and everyone get training and cross training.  The committee should understand the cubmaster and den leader roles, and vice versa.  Go beyond the online training and attend the local pow wow and/or university of scouting. 

I had not seen that anywhere (SM waiver for the camping requirement), but the waiver they do get is to not "count" against a unit's adult nominee limit (i.e, 1 adult per 3 scouts).

This.  If you think about it, most SMs will exceed the camping nights every year almost by default.  I suppose there are SMs that don't camp with their unit or units that don't camp, but something tells me they aren't all that interested in a brotherhood of honor campers (if we are honoring tradition). 

Wow, quite frustrating.  Every pack is run by volunteers with different roles, some are better at it than others.  It sounds like yours has some disfunction somewhere. 

It seems like in your pack the application, other paperwork, and money was given to the den leader to handle, but he is probably just the interface, and just delivers it all to someone else.  Most of my experience, that sort of thing is handled by the commitee. 

The magazine, Boys Life, should have been included in the application and your funds transferred to your local council, if they didn't do this, I'd be worried that he is even a registered scout (did you get a membership card?).  The rest of your fee should have been kept by the pack and the additonal items purchased and since every pack does this differently, nobody here will be able to tell you exactly how it works.  I'd try to talk to the committee chair who should have an idea of how they do it and who would be the best person in the pack to look into it for you.  The committee chair runs the pack's administration side of the house, although sometimes that duty is left up to the cubmaster who runs the program side of the pack.

It does sound like the pack could use some help, although, I would say that getting involved in a troubled pack can be more frustrating than just being a parent in a troubled pack, but if you can help make it a little better, more boys have a better chance at a good experience.

There are so many things.  It comes down to you and your son, if you volunteered with the troop are you ready to step further back even if you are at meetings, etc.  Does he need space to figure out how to do it without a parent?

You can take a break, just stay registered and make sure you are trained for your position.  You could stay with the pack in some capacity, committee membership chair, next year's tiger den leader.  My mother took over as cubmaster of the pack I bridged out of.  You could sign on with the troop in a capacity.  If you like to camp, be an assistant scoutmaster, organize things, a committee member.  It sounds like they will have you.  Are there merit badge subjects you think would be a good fit for you?  Be a counselor. 

Depending on your council, there are usually district committees that are always looking for help.  Administration, Program, etc.  Whatever you like.  Do you know the program well?  Unit Commissioner may be a role for you.

Whatever you do, like I mentioned before, get trained for it too, even if it isn't required, training will get you started in the "what to expect there" category.  Also, if you like training and teaching, councils and districts are always looking for training staff