BSA24

Seattle,

It's all about goals. There's some who might want the policy reversed to silence noisy liberals, and in that case, you're right. There will always be someone holding a placard screaming for us to eliminate all traces of religion from the face of the Earth.

However, my goal is not to silence the noisy. My goal is simply to be a good scout on the issue. I have gay friends. I have atheist friends. They are good people. I believe it is ignorance and prejudice that lead to their exclusion - almost all of which is based on beliefs in fundamentalist religion - not mainstream religious belief.

I don't think that excluding people for any generalized label or assumption is scout like. I want the policy reversed so that our membership practices are in line with the Scout Law - they are friendly, brotherly, and helpful to all.

I don't care if anyone is still noisy about how we do it. At least then we will have the moral high ground. They can join us, and say what we say, and are welcome to do their best and learn to respect the beliefs of others, even if their beliefs are a lack of beliefs.

Leave "God" in the oath. They can promise to do their best to God. Leave "reverent" in the Law. They can respect the beliefs of others and be faithful in their religious duties (if they have them).

I wouldn't mind if they removed "God" from the pledge. It was only added in the 1950's. The pledge has been modified four or five times during the 20th Century. During WWII, we said this:

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

We also used to not put our hands over our hearts the way we do today.

http://www.hlswatch.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/children-flag-salute-1930s.jpg

Things change over time. We changed it recently to have "under God" during the McCarthy era when godless atheist communists were all around us trying to undermine our capitalist way of life. We can probably let go of that now.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

Also, your pack is an operating entity of its chartering organization, not BSA. BSA acts like a franchiser and consulting group that charters with other businesses to host scout units using their official program. So, complaining up to BSA or the council is pointless, the pack belongs to the chartering org.

If you want to escalate over the heads of the pack leadership, go to their chartering org.

I agree with ScoutNut, you are owed no money. You changed units, and the money you raised was for BSA and that unit's use. Them creating scout accounts is just nice of them. They don't have to do that, and you don't have a right to the money.

> It is not like the the athiest where you are

> required to believe in a God of some sort,

> and are breaking the scout oath to be in scouts

> and not disclose it..

By that logic, every overweight man, woman, and boy who ever makes the scout sign and takes the oath is breaking the scout oath and not disclosing it every time they say "physically strong" while carrying an extra 100 pounds around their waists. I'm sorry, but if you can't run 2 miles in less than 20 minutes and do 40 pushups, you are not physically strong, imo. You can't even pass the military's basic test of physical fitness for a 40 year old to retain your commission as an officer, and that is not a challenging test.

By that logic, you are also breaking the scout oath every time you say you will keep yourself morally straight and yet you break the speed limit, laugh at your boss's jokes, or tell your wife her dress doesn't make her look fat.

Here's the thing. Life is not black and white. People are not good or bad.

The oath says "On my honor, I will do my best..." Technically an atheist is doing the best he can to do his duty to God and his country if he is trying to follow the scout law. He's doing the best that he can.

That's what the oath says. It does not say, "On my honor, I will 100% do the following things perfectly."

Good thing, too, or every fat scoutmaster out there would need to be booted out.

There is nothing in the oath and law that says you have to believe in God. The only place that is written is in BSA membership policies, the scout handbook, and the statement of religious principles.

There is this awesome Christian principle I learned growing up called grace. And the other principle is mercy. Grace = God granting you that which you do not deserve. Mercy is when God does not give you what you do deserve. I was raised that a Christian tries to emulate God best he can by bestowing Grace and Mercy in mass quantities.

I don't see why Atheists, who will never outnumber the rest of us, cannot join us at our meetings, learn to camp and play outside in boats and with bows and arrows, and enjoy the fellowship of the camp fire.

A unit commissioner (UC) is an adult leader who is registered with the district to coach the chartering orgs and their units they are assigned on the scouting program. Myscouting.scouting.org has a training class for commissioner that is education. It explains the job.

Ideally, a UC is enrolled in scouting only as a commissioner and has no other job in scouting. He is expected to visit all of the units he is assigned by the assistant commissioner on a regular basis. He stands in the back of their unit meetings and courts of honor, and he sometimes attends their committee meetings.

His job is not to tell them what they are doing wrong, but to encourage them to do things right, be silent during meetings to never undermine the unit leadership, and help all of the leaders get along and deliver a great program with gentle, very diplomatic guidance.

The UC ensures that those adult leaders in the units they are assigned are recognized for their contributions - sometimes helping nominate them for honorary awards such as the silver beaver or district award of merit.

A unit commissioner is a very valuable role when done properly. It is best done by an adult leader who has been through the entire program with their son and is an experienced adult leader. The documentation from BSA even recommends that the person be a former boy scout.

Being a den leader is one of the most demanding jobs in the scouting program. Doing that along with commissioner is possible, but I do not recommend it.

The district you are in will have a single District Commissioner. That person will appoint assistant commissioners and a roundtable commissioner. Those commissioners will appoint individual round table commissioners (cubs, bs, and vent) and unit commissioners respectively.

The training tells you everything you want to know and more.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

Why can't the OA just get rid of the no sash on your belt rule and instead issue guidelines for doing so?

I think you might want to get each parent who pays for camp to also sign a document saying they understand that. "We sent lots of emails" is not going to withstand a claim in small claims court. You'll be giving them a refund and told your communication is ineffective and lacks receipting.

There are parents who don't want spam who don't even tell you that you don't have their email address. Or they give you an email address they never check, because they don't want you able to email their phone and ring it at 1am. There's all kinds of stories back there.

I support your policy, but think having them sign they agree to the conditions when they pay would be an additional step your committee could take to protect the unit and prevent parental complaints and anger.

Sometimes we get so hung up on the purpose, we forget the fun part. "Let's make men out of them. Get me a car battery! We'll shock some sense into them! We'll build a boy scout shock collar for our next wood badge ticket objective."

[sarcasm] Everyone knows that boys love to dress formally. Shiny black shoes for those boy scouts. That will work wonders for attracting youth in a society where the standard is baggy shorts and a tattoo. [/sarcasm]

Is the troop committee within their rights?

The Scoutmaster needs to represent the boys to the committee and stand them down. The committee should be informed by the boys through the scoutmaster what their program is going to be and how the committee can help bring it to life. "Thanks for your input. The boys rejected that idea and instead voted on this. We need you to do these things so we can execute this plan."

Upside down org chart - the scoutmaster keeps the crazy out of the program, and the boys do the scouting. The committee helps with forms, funding, transportation, equipment, etc.

(This message has been edited by BSA24)

Are you done yet? I'm waiting for you to get it all out of your system. It's all your own internal process. You've got yourself an imaginary enemy, and you apparently need to knock him around a little bit to get out some frustration. I'm willing to serve in that role if it makes you feel better.

BadenP:

"Resentment is like drinking poison hoping the other fellow will die. But that's not what happens."

This thread is one of the major reasons I stayed behind as a Cub leader after my boys went on to the Boy Scouts and continue to do so. I just can't see the "fun with a purpose" in all of this. I went through it as a Boy Scout to get my eagle award. It isn't fun when the leaders are trying to make you do things for a purpose that are not fun.

Filling out a project write up and having it rejected multiple times is not fun with a purpose. Even having a guide to advancement is not fun with a purpose.

Advancement in the Boy Scout program has become this dominating force of sea lawyering that isn't fun.

How is any of this arguing about advancement guides fun? How is being grilled in a BOR fun?

I told my sons to learn some stuff, go on trips, make friends, and have fun.

You guys really find this fun? I'll stick with the cub scouts, thanks.

Tobacco is not banned on BSA properties. Using it in front of the youth is.

From Scouting.org:

> Tobacco

> All Scouting functions, meetings, and

> activities should be conducted on a

> smoke-free basis, with smoking areas

> located away from all participants.

Never met a ranger that didn't smoke on BSA property out of site of the youth all day long.

You are correct that adults will smell tobacco smoke on the leaders. That's an issue for the conscience of the smoker.

Relevant: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=285265

> A lot of white liberals have lots of

> reasons why they hate Scouting, so

> they aren't going to join in any case.

White liberal here. Became a liberal because of scouting. Learned about conservation, the trees, the birds, the wildlife, labor unions, and other cool topics. Been a liberal ever since. Was raised in a conservative/moderate family.

Been involved in scouting since a long, long time ago.

Too bold? That's subjective and depends on the relationship you have with the people you were talking to. You can call your best buddy ugly names and he'll laugh. You can say something slightly offensive to a stranger and end up being reported to the police.

If you have been a regular presence there, and you have established some trust with the unit leaders, then offering a little nudge in the right direction isn't too bold.

If you are a new UC for that unit, and traditionally they have been the kind of unit that doesn't welcome a UC in to visit, then you might have snuffed out your candle with them.

With you, probably the former.

If the bear has been habituated to humans as a source of food (eating our stuff - not us), then anything that smells like humans smells like a potential food source.

Black bears are generally shy and timid. I've shooed lots of them off by clapping my hands and saying "Get!" at them.

This will make them a little less scary for you:

If you see a grizzly, be afraid.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

> The termination WAS out of my control

The nature of how people end up poor is a subjective and political one. You've used yourself as your example, so I can't really contradict it with support without personally attacking you, so I won't try.

I'll leave it at this: I am a libertarian. I am also a very spiritual person who believes we project the world around us. We make what happens to us through our choices. That's how the universe works.

I pulled myself up. I expect others to do the same. Some people gave me help, but also demanded that I give my all. If my cable TV is still connected, but I am asking for an handout, I do not deserve it. TV is not a necessity, and I believe it is stealing to have TV service and take other people's assistance.

> Finally, BSAs approach to uniform issues

> baffles me ... Why would you require official socks

> but allow Scouts to wear whatever

> insignia is fun.

Hmmm. Well, I didn't go into every little detail because I wasn't expecting this lovely stake, those nice logs, the smell of kerosene, and that nice man wearing the black hood holding the torch.

We require the pants, socks, and shirt because those are the equivalent of a baseball uniform. It's what the community expects to be required of them. And, they can't screw it up.

But sometimes they do screw up the patches. One dad was a very low income Russian fellow, and he used that awful badge magic glue to put his son's bobcat badge on the wrong pocket. And it was upside down. That kid wore that upside down bobcat, and no other patches, for three years before getting a khaki shirt when he went up to the Webelos.

I pointed it out one time, and I let it be. What do you want me to do to them? Have someone rattle a snare drum and have the boy ring the bell and walk down Washout Way?

I don't believe it is my job to "let" people do anything with their badges. They are told how to do it right, given a uniform inspection sheet both by us and by the scout shop. But some people do things that they just don't care about or are determined to do - like the guy who replaced his trained badge with a "potty trained" badge. I saw it. I laughed.

I think that explains it pretty well. We require the pants, socks, and shirt. We explain how to properly wear the uniform. I don't pick fights with parents about their son's badges being sewn perfectly. I don't pick fights with leaders who sew the purple world crest even with the pocket seam and then put a knot on to the left so it will fit.

What's the big deal?

Shame on some of you for the way you express yourselves. Take a look in the mirror before you make assumptions about my poor character, please.

> you truly are an arrogant, sanctimonious, racist and bigotted person.

> you are unfit to be a scout leader

> he is truly a poor role model

> poisoning the minds of young boys with your brand of vile contempt, bigotry, and hatred.

Which points of the Scout Law are you demonstrating here, BadenP?

Quote anything that I wrote that you think tops any of that.

whitepine, the guy walking with his arms crossed is copying a hollywood actor's image of an Indian Chief from the 1960's. I have never in my life seen an Indian cross his arms like Barbara Eden about to teleport in "I Dream of Jeannie." Do you believe that is something that Indians did in the 1800's? There was lots of arm crossing when things get serious?

I'm pretty sure that is a cartoonish representation of how any number of millions of human beings alive in the past might have stood and talked when doing a ceremony.

If you have netflix, stream "Reel Injun". I think you'll laugh.

Here's a trailer for it: http://www.reelinjunthemovie.com/site/

Callooh! Callay! & Eagle92 you make some very interesting points for me to mull over.

Some thoughts: Can I make a society in the Boy Scouts where I dress up as the Pope and all the members speak Latin (or what sound like fake Italian accents)?

I think you have all made some excellent points about who has and does not have an inherent, God-given righteousness to call themselves victim and claim they are offended. I concede on that front. When one considers the mass hatred between the tribes themselves, and the nonsense they themselves have perpetuated about their own histories, it's easy to see where it gets absurd.

I am obviously not offended by Fighting Irish of Notre Dame, nor am I offended by Cornhuskers or any other silly mascot or mockery of any of the many cultures I hail from.

I am also not offended if someone burns the American flag or throws it on the ground. I just don't get offended by things like that. I think offense is something people do to themselves, not something that is done to them. You guys obviously agree with that.

So, I should be able to do the Pope thing. But I can't. We all know it.

I think the only argument I have left is that the mainstream of our society will choose to be offended by it, so how can we hope to be successful in achieving our #1 objective if we drive people off, whether or not they are wrong to be offended?

Yes, it may be silly, guilty white liberal PC behavior, but if that is the prevailing culture, what is the point in our fighting a hopeless battle to our doom?

I guess BSA doesn't care because sash & dash still results in lots of boys showing up to help clean up the camps. It's free labor for them for the price of a sash. Often the boys pay it back by buying a lodge flap or two. Some lodges charge the boys for the ordeal event.

> Telling other people what their priorities

> ought to be and how they ought to use their

> money has always struck me as both a waste

> of effort and a bit jerky.

I agree. That's not what we do. I was just explaining why I do what I do. What we actually tell our recruits at the parent's night is:

* Scouting is a uniformed activity just like baseball

* You are kicked off the baseball diamond if you are out of uniform

* We don't roll that way, but want every boy to have socks, pants, and shirt

* Don't let the scout shop load you up with patches. You can get those later

* Don't buy a necker - we give you that

* Don't buy a handbook - we give you that

* Don't buy a belt unless you want to

* Hat is also not necessary

* Don't need a woggle. We have a guy that makes them from rope for free.

* Every registered leader will set an example like a good coach and wear the pants, shirt, and socks for their position. We provide the position patches, numerals, council strip.

* We do not offer financial aid or scholarships for uniforms. We will operate a fundraiser with you as the chair to raise money for uniforms if anyone has serious need.

That's pretty much how it goes. I wouldn't ever tell a parent to drop cable TV unless that parent came over to me and said they don't like fundraisers, don't want their kid to wash cars, and can't we just give them a uniform. I am intolerant of people asking for handouts. I believe that boys should learn that one should pull oneself up. That's when that line comes out. "You got cable TV?"

"Yes?"

"Turn it off for two months. There's your $55.00."

I've never yet, in my area, met anyone who could not figure out how to get a uniform. Many have protested, all managed to buy one with no assistance from us yet despite the protests. I guess they sold their jacked up truck with $10,000 worth of suspension upgrades or the corvette that was in front of the trailer. Maybe they rented their 55" TV to someone. Maybe they cut their data plan off on their facebook addiction phone for two months. I don't know.

But I'm not a socialist, and I don't believe in redistribution of wealth unless it is absolutely necessary.

If I thought someone was legitimately pinched and totally unable, and they were checked out and researched appropriately, then I would probably be willing to pay their way myself out of my pocket. I have not met that person yet.

I'd never send a boy home for being out of uniform. But I will get on his parents about it and ask what's up.

> I am a little taken aback that someone who claims

> to be so enlightened uses terms such as Indian

> and red skinned to refer to Native Americans.

> The few Native Americans I know find these terms offensive.

LOL!

Yes, let's compare sins, because if someone else is sinning, then your own are canceled out. :/

You're saying that people shouldn't be so sensitive and PC about white kids from the burbs dressing up as Indians, walking around with their arms cross like a cheap spaghetti Western, faking a fake Souix accent, but now you want to play role-reversal and say that I was being non-PC by using the expression "indian" and "red skin" to refer to what you call "a native american?"

As a native of America, I am highly offended that you think I am not a Native American. Where is Jessie Jackson when I need him? Wait wait. The Indians from India want to join in the protest. What about someone born in the United States who's parents are from India? What are they exactly? A native American or an Indian American? What if they live in Indiana? Oh no! We named an entire state after indians, but not the indians who were born there. What would you be then? Or a white guy from South African who moves here? Isn't he an African American?

You guys make me laugh. This is just like talking to the dance, drum, and ceremony guys in my lodge. They are hell-bent that what they are doing is good and pure and right and unassailable. They will listen to no one. Change can never come. All critics must be people who are not as smart as they are. They will drum and dance and ceremony the OA right out of relevance.

Who cares if people like it! We will die with honor doing what we love! All both of us! WE ARE KLINGONS!

The mental gymnastics required by this maze of rationalization that justifies continuing a beloved practice that is so vulnerable to criticism are astounding.

Meanwhile, what % of kids are inducted who come to at least six lodge meetings? 1% 10%? 15% maybe? What could it be that makes them not come back? Could it possibly be that this facet of BSA runs so counter-cultural to youth's world views today that they just cringe in horror when they see it?

The only "red skins" are those red faced in embarrassment.

Agree with Basement. The Cubmaster, the Treasurer, the Committee Chair should be present any time the pack is fundraising. It's not a good idea to put newly recruited parents in charge of an event without any supervision or oversight whether fundraising or not.

Just asking a parent to chair the B&G can lead to chaos if you "over delegate" by simply describing last year's B&G and don't have any meetings with them about it and dump it on them.

At work, if you were to give someone a project, you would require them to report in to you weekly as to its progress. In a scout unit, the biggest thing that goes wrong is when people are assigned responsibility for something, and then the unit leader or CC doesn't follow up with them weekly as to how they are doing with their tasks.

In this case, if a pack leader had been in front of the store with them, the families would have asked him there on the spot where the money goes, and he could have told them, "We are fundraising for the pack. It all goes to the pack. The committee will vote on how to disperse it."

> Right now they are going right over your head.

Making assumptions about the wisdom of others is never a good idea. Often one finds later in life that he was the one speaking from a lack thereof.

> BSA24, you are speaking from a position of privilege

Today I am. When I was a scout, I did not have a position of privilege.

> and you are not taking into account the different

> uniform requirements different units may have

I am not in charge of different units. I cannot help you with them. But in mine, uniforms are required, but only the shirt, pants, and socks are necessary.

The pack provides neckerchiefs. We have never asked anyone to have a boy wear a hat.

> I have six family members registered with the BSA to uniform.

Then get out on that streetcorner with them and sell some donuts. Or have a car wash. Or cancel cable TV - what does that cost? More than a uniform per month. Cancel your smartphone data plan for three months and save the money.

The money is there. You just don't want to feel the pinch.

> Your estimate is for the cheapest uniform,

Yes, it is. I figure it is only fair if uniforms are required to keep it to the necessities.

> required by the uniform guide.

It is a guide. It doesn't require anything. Have you not read the other comments here about how uniforms are not required at all in the program?

> Also, a belt is important, otherwise earning belt loops is

> pointless.

I'm really curious why a pack that has members that insist they cannot afford a uniform is spending money on the sports and academics belt loops for boys. My pack doesn't pay for them. We use our pack funds more sparingly and parents must pay the pack for the loops if they want us to get them for them. We save around $2000 a year that we put toward the books and neckerchiefs and camping for the boys at no cost to the families.

You are aware that the S&A program is not required of your unit?

> I may feel that my family may benefit as a whole by putting

> that money elsewhere.

That is your choice. You are not a victim. You do not have to join my scout unit. Maybe there is another one in the neighborhood that will buy your uniform for you. I will not. I was poor. I know about bad choices. I feel no sympathy for someone with a big screen TV and cable or dish service to watch football games who will not do without to buy their child a sports or scout uniform.

> Uniforming provides an identity, a sense of camaraderie,

> recognition among members.

Yep.

> This can be accomplished without members matching head-to-toe

> with expensive clothing from a specialty shop.

Perhaps it can. But that's how it is done in my scout unit.

> it is not at all uncommon to find a

> 'blond haired blue eyed'individual who

> is just as Native as someone with darker features.

We have a lot of guys around here who are blue eyed who claim to be natives raised with native culture. They fake at being able to speak the language, but I am trilingual, and I can hear their American English accents and slow fake speech just the same as I can when I hear actors recite lines in a foreign language they do not speak. I learn a few phrases in the language and use them, uncommon phrases, and they stare blankly.

So then I go to the reservation, and everyone on it has Asian-style thick, black, straight hair. They have distinctive faces, just like the guy on the buffalo nickel, and they are highly, intensely xenophobic toward visitors. At least those not selling tourist trinkets or marketing themselves as consultants to the white man on his Indian interests. They are raised in the abject poverty of the reservation, and they all speak with a certain nasal accent on their English.

I've spent considerable time around such people. Enough that I know not to wear a boy scout uniform or any sort of OA or scout shirt on the reservation, because I will be talked to about how racist it is. I've asked folks there how they feel about people such as my blonde-blue-eyed aquaintences. Most of what I have been told is that "If you don't live on the reservation, you are dead to us."

This thread has been great for chewing on some thoughts. I've read everyone's responses and considered them. I wonder if the difference between those who are offended and those who are not is what sorts of interactions we have had with native people.

I also wonder if part of the difference isn't how we view the cultural items. To me, being a "native" is not a genetic thing. I also have a Jewish ancestor. I am not Jewish. I have a German ancestor. I am not German. Nor am I English, nor am I Irish. And someone born to Americans raised in Ireland who never lived in America may technically be a citizen, but I will never consider them a real American, because they have not lived among my people, and they do not know us or act like us.

So, when I see kids, no matter who has a card from a tribal authority saying he is an official approver of dances and songs, dressed up like Indians, to me, it's shamefully fake. They are not members of that culture. They are not Indians.

They are not Indians any more than Raquel Welch is an Indian, and she played one in a movie. And I think she shouldn't have, and a real Indian should have done it.

Maybe if I went to an OA event and saw guys who live in a native culture leading everyone in a fun dance along, I would think "Cool!" But when I see a bunch of white teenagers who know next to nothing about a living people they are playing at being, I think it looks like a shallow understanding that belies a lack of respect. Not an intentional one, but really, it's bad.

I also agree with the guy above who wrote that the Indian dancing is just lame, even if it isn't racist. It's not something your average future CEO is going to do with his time. It's like dressing up in star trek uniforms for a convention. Hey, if that's your thing, fine, but realize that most kids shake their heads in disgust when they see it and think its nerdy.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

> every family has $135 to plop down

Cub scout shirt = $24

Cub scout pants = $25

Cub Scout socks = $6

$55 total. The pants don't even require a belt any longer. They have elastic waists. And if you know someone that needs a belt, let me know, I will mail them a cub scout belt for a youth.

If your unit is wise, they have a uniform bank with lots of shirts and pants, and a committee member who does nothing but talk boys and parents out of their old uniforms, and informs parents on the perils of badge magic and how it harms uniform recycling.

Any family can find $55. Any family can find $55. Let me write that one more time - unless you are completely homeless, with no access to shelter, no clothes on your back, etc, and drunk in a gutter, you can dig up $55. You can. It is all a matter of priorities.

> The outright racist and bigotted comments

> by BSA24 just prove my point.

Being poor or rich is a race? It is bigoted to believe in people? I don't agree with that.

> That is the kind of wealth that people like BSA24

> could not and will not ever understand, and IMO

> that kind of wealth is the true spirit of scouting.

It's easy to say that money is not important when you have it. It is also easy to say that it is impossible to get money when you don't have it. Both are false.

Seattle,

Recruiting is selling. It's person to person consumer sales.

Selling is difficult when the product is unknown, or when the brand is unknown.

If the brand is tarnished, or the product has received negative press, it is more difficult.

Selling something to someone else successfully... it is essential that the brand of the service or product be strong, and the service/product be known about before hand.

Creating demand for a product is marketing.

I am unhappy to see BSA depending on their customers to create all of the demand and do all the advertising by word of mouth. There are very few companies that succeed using that model. None of them are huge. And BSA is not run with the sort of discipline that would make them able to pull it off.

They need to market.

I'm tired of telling parents what we do in the cub scouts. Shouldn't that be well-known before hand to drum up interest?