BSA24

The Cubmaster job asks a lot of a man. It asks that he being all sorts of different people:

* Leader of the adults - encourage them and inspire them to deliver a great program

* Program manager - review plans and the scouting program across the unit ensuring it is appropriate and fun

* Leader of pack meetings - Master of Ceremonies, singer of songs, victim of skits and run-ons, designer of awards presentations, crosser-over of webelos scouts

* Liaison to Boy Scout troops

* Encourager of boys to connect with their faith through the youth religious emblem program

* Outdoorsman, camper, hiker, fisher, etc.

* Recruiter and salesman during round up

* Judge on badge requirements and completions - bestower of justice and hopefully mercy

* Supervisor and supporter of den chiefs

* Achieve the Journey Toward Excellence Gold Standard and get everyone to do their jobs so that this award is received.

* Lead the way in uniforming. Wear it properly, and wear it completely. No jeans, please. Official pants, socks, belt, brown shoes, and khaki shirt for the cubmaster. Unofficial doo-dads bestowed by the youth are forgivable despite being a technical no-no.

* You must have an AWESOME HAT. Campaign hat is preferable. Fedora works. Cowboy hats are nice. But a big, nice hat you like. If it is official - GREAT! If not, forgivable as long as the boys like it and you consistently wear it so they recognize you.

On top of all of that, he has to be passionate, fun to be around, able to give direction without ticking people off, and able to... should I even bother to continue?

Finding that guy - well, that's not very likely to happen. If you're a cubmaster, figure out which of those you are good at, and then find the men who can do the others and make them assistant cubmasters. Then delegate and share the stage.

An ACM in charge of the chaplain role who leads prayers and runs youth religious emblem connections and education in the unit is a good one.

More immediately needed is an ACM who is a liaison to the Boy Scout troops to recruit den chiefs or boy scout participation in camping or pack meetings. This guy can supervise them, see that they are trained, and keep in touch with local scoutmasters.

An ACM who is a songmaster is a good idea, too. This guy can lead the songs. He's someone who can sing decently and is not easily shamed by being on stage. The class clown of the leaders is great for this one.

Hopefully one of those ACM's will have a truck.

Also, a good cubmaster knows how to use his committee. The committee chair should be organizing the fundraising, appointing chairs for camping trips or outings, ensuring the bank account has money, and appointing people to handle all of this while publishing a newsletter, etc. The committee chair's role is to support the Cubmaster, who is the top leader in the unit, but ideally, the CC and the CM are like brothers and inseparably support one another.

A good cubmaster understands that he needs to listen to the committee chair, who is the primary advisor of the Cubmaster, and that there is going to be give and take.

Lastly, the good cubmaster ensures that his den leaders are able to speak out and have a say in all activities. The upside down org chart says that the we all support the people who are in direct youth contact, and no one has as much responsibility as a den leader. Den leaders should be in all monthly pack planning meetings, and though they are not on the committee, I highly, highly recommend you give them a vote on your activities.

Frankly, any modern leader who doesn't ask for everyone's input and hold a vote these days is a fool.

Keep the pack meetings brief and on a tight schedule. Parents are dying with little kids after an hour. At an hour and fifteen minutes, you've now pushed to the limit. Hold yourself accountable to end pack meetings on time.

(This message has been edited by BSA24)

If you go to an army navy depot, you will find shoulder cords for various purposes for sale. Take a look at one. You will see how to tie some cord in that fashion. Get some paracord, and make your own.

Making home-made gizmos for the uniform such as little leather dangles or claw necklaces and such is a time-honored tradition.

There are gays allowed as teachers in public schools.

So our kids are around gay kids in school all day. They have an openly gay teacher. Then they come home, and we put them in a uniform and send them to scouts where there will hopefully be no gay people to influence them?

Does that even make any sense? Heck, even their bus driver could be gay.

What we need our youth to learn is how to interact with these people successfully and without fear or paranoia, how to get along and be a brother and a friend to anyone without judging them, and how to build a team of people who are nothing like each other into a team they can lead to success. That is the world they are going into to be leaders.

No Eagle Scouts coming into my company are going to get a gay/atheist free environment to work in and their choice of co-workers. They might get a gay boss, coworkers, or employees.

So what is even the point?

I understand BSA has the right. I fail to understand the purpose for exercising it.

johnponz,

You're really hard on yourself. That doesn't sound like fun. And I don't see what doing it that way will get me in the way of superior results.

acco40,

I agree. I have conducted "uniform inspections" with units before. I still recommend them. I try to make them fun, encouraging, positive, and educational.

I have never told an Eagle dad not to wear an eagle dad pin on his pocket flap, though. Nor have I ever made note that someone was wearing a leather necklace of beads from some cub event or round table. I ignored things like an unauthorized, home-designed knot designed by some unit for some special award they do internally.

Advice is a funny thing. The tone of it and how it is expressed can change everything about it.

"You are not allowed to do that" will inspire a rebellion.

"Leaders are asked to wear only official stuff on their uniforms and keep it simple and uncluttered, but it's your shirt! Have fun!" is received with more welcome.

There is no way that any of us can predict the outcome. It all depends on the people who run the checks and what they think. The district employees will probably be asked to talk to the chartering org rep for the group that sponsors your unit. That guy will be asked to endorse you by signing off on the application.

If he is like packsaddle and has a legitimate beef against a DUI person (my best friend was killed by a DUI driver still walking around free and healthy today), then you're toast. If he's a drinking man who sometimes weaves home from a bar, he'll probably sign it straight off with no worries.

I recommend you tell the COR about your arrest. Tell him the full story, your blood alcohol content, where you were driving from and to, and ask him if he wants to disqualify you. When he signs that application, it means he is signing off on you as a leader. He has a right to know and not be blindsided by BSA contacting him.

When you find yourself looking in the insignia guide in reference to anyone's uniform other than your own, you've lost perspective.

This is a drastic solution and sometimes has poor results, but there is always the option of just stepping down entirely and seeing if everyone else steps up to fill the gap.

Sometimes no one fills the gap because you are filling it all the time, and as long as you will pick up anything that's dropped, there is no need for them to do it.

Sometimes calling into the committee meeting and saying, "I can't be there" is good for the other folks to stretch their wings. I've also seen Cubmasters just up and resign at a parent's meeting and say "Someone has to take my place. I'm done." I've seen units collapse because no parents were willing to do it, and maybe the unit shouldn't really have existed if no one would support the CM. I've also seen the parents suddenly dig in and step up to help out.

I would try other suggestions here before you go that far.

> What one person thinks of another does not

> really stregthen an argument.

Indeed it does not. West's opinion about people who wore their uniforms incorrectly is also not a strong argument.

What is a strong argument is this:

* Uniforms and awards exist for a reason - to achieve an objective

* The objective is not justice in the world

* The objective is not to make all of the tin soldiers line up neatly

* The objective is not to do thing "the right way"

* The objective is not to follow the rules

The objective is for everyone to have fun and to learn something.

If people are frowning or making serious faces, you are doing scouting wrongly.

"Scouting is not an abstruse or difficult science: rather it is a jolly game if you take it in the right light. In the same time it is educative, and (like Mercy) it is apt to benefit him that giveth as well as him that receives." - Baden Powell

Some people like to follow the letter of the law because... THE LAW! Some people follow the spirit of the law, but break the actual literal law itself. The speed limit encourages you to drive slower. Do you always drive exactly the speed limit?

This is an important question.... because if you ever, ever ever drive over the speed limit by even 1 mile per hour, and your child sees you do it, then you have done the exact same thing as a leader to awards another leader a stupid yellow and blue knot even though they only attended three round tables instead of four.

As a famous man once said, "Let he among you who is without sin cast the first stone."

Anyone?

Anyone?

I didn't think so. You all drive over the speed limit all the time. A bet a traffic safety background check on the participants here extolling the virtues of following the requirements to the letter come hell or high water would reveal stacks of past tickets. A GPS database dump from your phone would probably show 49 mph in a 45 mph zone on a daily basis.

Same thing, boys.

Seattle Pioneer wrote:

> Those who don't favor government power in

> controlling and defining marriage should

> oppose gay marriage, because right now government

> doesn't control that.

Actually, yes it does control that.

* Government issues marriage licenses

* Government charges a tax for marriage licenses

* Government makes laws about who can and cannot adopt based on marital status

* Government offers tax breaks and penalties based on marital status

* Government controls divorce

* Government probates all wills between family members

* Government defines who is a family member

* Government defines whether or not your significant other's parents can keep you away from them in the hospital when they are terminally ill

* Government defines who is able to pull the plug at the end of someone's life

All of these things are controlled by government in relation to marriage. This is what gay couples, who live together anyway, are not allowed because their marriages are not recognized by the state.

I would think that most Republicans would prefer that government have no laws around marriage. I would think that small government people, such as myself, would prefer that the government get out of the marriage business and stop issuing licenses, tax breaks and penalties, and stop determining for us who our significant person in our lives is.

If I am a single man, who is straight, the government says I cannot give my best friend control over my estate or my health as I die because we are not married. My parents, whom I may have disagreed with on everything, can step in and take control of my life, push my friend aside against my wishes, and exclude them from doing what we agreed on.

Government definitely controls marriage. Marriage raises government revenues, and there are many, many legal entanglements that only government and lawyers can unravel with regard to marriage.

>I think it's evidence of someone who can't

> separate what's important from what's not.

^ This.

Earnest Seton, the founding Chief Scout, hated James West. He claimed that he invented Scouting, that Baden Powell boomed it, and that West killed it. He thought West was the antithesis of Scouting.

If Seton were alive today, and he found out there was an award called the James West award that you could buy for yourself, he'd probably say, "Figures."

(This message has been edited by BSA24)

> My problem with giving out a thousand

> knots is that soon a scouter has a fleet

> of knots on his uniform... I begin to

> question how involved they are with the youth

> and that is the point of the program.

The point of the program is fun with a purpose - for everyone - leaders and the youth. The program is not supposed to be not-fun for adults and fun for youth.

The uniform is a tool to encourage good behavior, brotherhood, and it also eliminates differences between us so we come together and enjoy ourselves more.

It's also for fun. Fun with a purpose.

In that sense, the uniform is a toy. If patches are in the wrong place, or there are lots of them, perhaps you should consider whether or not the wearer thinks that is fun. Or whether or not you looking down your nose at him like he's committing a crime is fun for you or for him.

Everyone is supposed to have fun in scouts. It is something we joined so we could do fun things. The uniform is no exception.

Yes, I would frisbee out knots like crazy to people if it gets me good results. The knots exist for a purpose: to encourage fun with a purpose. The knots do not exist to make us generals or to make us meet the highest standards. They are a silly toy that we play outside in.

I think as scout leaders it is important to remember that Peter Pan's treehouse was a better model for a scout troop or cub scout pack than a military platoon handing out medals.

All the guides and books and rules exist to help us have fun. Lots of boys think it is fun to wear a shirt with badges all in the same place. They like getting that next award.

There's no difference between them and grown men thinking green and red knee socks are fun to wear.

And then "that guy" says "you aren't supposed to wear your OA sash on your belt." I just roll my eyes because they've forgotten the spirit of scouting is childish fun with a purpose.

It's for fun. If it ain't fun, I don't want any part of it.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

Every BOR should begin with a required reading from a list of "don'ts" to prevent commonly practiced inappropriate behavior by members of the board.

Every time I sit in on a BOR, invariably some joker will try to turn the experience into an oral defense on the part of the scout of their behavior and beliefs and probe them for weakness.

Some stupid things I have heard asked in BOR's:

* Do you believe in God?

* Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior?

* Which is better - socialism or capitalism?

* Who are you planning to vote for?

* How often do you go to church?

* Are you gay?

Yep - I've heard all of these at one time or another asked by chuckleheads who have no idea what they are doing. I was asked one of those questions in my BOR many, many years ago, but a commissioner was present and stopped the interrogation and focused everyone back on ensuring my handbook was signed off, project approved, write up approved, application filled out properly, merit badges earned, and all badge requirements fulfilled.

Frankly, I wonder if the BOR truly serves any purpose. In corporate America, we call a meeting like that a pro-forma hoop to jump through. A meeting with a known outcome which serves no real purpose or goal and which is easily hijacked for a different, often sinister purpose.

Listening to scout leaders gloating about a boy they don't get along with saying, "He'll find out during his BOR how much that ticked me off"... really, the BOR's should just be done away with.

I am reminded that Baden Powell called scouting a jolly game. It's supposed to be fun. It's not supposed to be a tribunal or a torture test. Boys are supposed to enter into activities laughing and leave in the same condition. So are leaders.

The BOR should be like any other scout activity: something boys look forward to. Something that they relish participating in. Something that was awesome.

Anything that happens in scouting that causes frowns or serious faces should be questioned.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

I have one. PM me your snail mail address and I will send it to you.

> If there were a right to marry,

> you could marry as many people

> as you wished

> define the terms of the marriage

> and how to dissolve it.

Why is this not OK? Exactly what happens that is a negative consequence of allowing people the same freedom of choice with regard to their relationships as they have in their business arrangements?

I don't understand why there are any laws around marriage except for an age restriction to protect the innocent youth. Why can consenting adults not all be allowed to enter into whatever arrangements they like voluntarily and of their own accord?

The only reason I can think of is puritanism.

American is the "Land of the Free". This doesn't create more taxes, it doesn't increase government intrusion into our lives. In fact, it doesn't affect anyone at all. Zach Wahls and others like him have disproven any consequences for the child (other than the ridicule of people who are in favor of government control of marriage).

> Why is anyone that is not gay even

> concerned about whether they want to

> marry or not.

Laws concerning marriage are socialist and big government, that's why. It's social engineering and using government to control the culture.

Just like all good Republicans fight against.

The Dalai Lama only represents a sect of Tibetan Buddhism - not all Buddhism. He is not the pope of Buddhists everywhere. Buddhism is also practiced across India, China, and Japan and has no such proscriptions. In fact, it is in the very nature of Buddhism to not proscribe any behaviors at all.

During my many travels to Asia, I have never seen any evidence that they despise or discriminate against homosexuals in any way.

Your example of Shinto is countered by modern accusations against Priests in the Catholic Church. There's a great example to cite of Christian decency, right? Those Catholic Priests abusing boys by the bus load and the church denying it all the way to court and refusing to release records on it? The pope refusing to condemn it or apologize for it?

See? Anyone can do that to anyone's religious beliefs, Beavah. You haven't made a point. You've just conflated the issue by pulling random facts out of long-dead history.

Be careful as a Westerner trying to interpret other country's belief systems, Beavah. You'll just end up cutting and pasting random things in a desperate attempt to not change your mind.

This issue will eventually resolve when our generation is dead and the next one takes over. Either that, or the Boy Scouts will become a Mormon's only club and find itself unable to operate the camps that it has.

Let's get back to your original point: No nation or people in history have ever "declined" due to homosexuality becoming accepted or even in any sort of correlation with the acceptance.

(This message has been edited by BSA24)

Given the way young people today believe that homosexuality is not a big deal and is an inborn trait, the change is inevitable. This is just like the racism of the past. 80 year olds are firm in their resistance. 20 year olds are laughing at them and are asking for things to change.

It is a generational prejudice. It will die with us.

And we are in charge of a youth movement. How can we be this out of touch with the vast, vast majority of our nation's youth and still reach them on topics that matter?

Beavah,

Cite these historical declines please? Because that's just a oft-repeated myth. There are no declines associated with the introduction of acceptance of homosexuality. It was accepted in Ancient Rome before Rome took power, during all of its reign of terror, and after. It was accepted in Ancient Greece - before it rose to power and after.

It is not considered "wrong" by Buddhism, Shinto, Taoism, or Confucianism. China and Japan seem to have done fine for thousands of years while "accepting" it.

I too have observed this. As a CM, my son was a total PITA. He would behave worse during a pack meeting than any other situation he was in - mostly because I was on stage and couldn't really get to him.

I tried to make this better for his DL. I would attend den meetings, and I would stomp him out like a campfire when he burned too hot. I also authorized all leaders very clearly to do what was needed to keep him from ruining it for other kids.

I took other steps too, that I recommend to all CM's and DL's: He went last always. I never gave him his awards first. I never let him be the denner first. I never put him on stage with me. I did everything I could to make sure that he was not put in front of the other youth. This was not easy. My wife fought me on it. She thought I should use my position to favor him and justified it with my time and energy I donated as compensation. I refused. I put him last, last, last all the time.

I did this because I took the CM job not to benefit my son, but to benefit the scout unit. By taking the job, probably the biggest sacrifice was not really being able to be a scout dad like I wanted to be. I was everyone's uncle instead.

DL's and CM's, the other parents see you making your kid the denner without a vote. They see you sticking every badge known to man on them. They see you gaming the system to favor your kid. They see it, and they don't like it. They may not call you on it to your face, but it is spoken about.

JMHawkins, you have my vote for King of the BSA.

There was a time when black people were believed to not have souls or to be the evil children of Cannan marked by God with dark skin. People heard this at Church, and they believed it was true. They used it to justify treating them unequally for a long time.

Anybody here want to say they believe that way? Used to be that when a black kid came to apply for membership at a white troop, he was turned away. Anyone still do that? It was surely going to be the end of the world for us if we let "them" in our troops. They don't have souls, you know. That's what they said.

I heard an adult say it to his son in one of our meetings when I was a boy. "They don't have souls. They are going to hell. They are black because they sinned against God and are the children of Canan."

I remember scout leaders telling everyone how they would quit if we let them in. How the churches would abandon us. How we'd be finished as an organization.

Look what actually happened. We have the likes of Black Eagle making web sites like crazy to help everyone do Scouting better. A black scout leader took scouts to meet the President.

Seems that we have a lot of things we are really sure about. We have a lot of reasons to label a group of people as being "them" and then not talk to "them," live next door to "them," sit on the bus with "them."

Young folks are going to do away with our prejudiced practices eventually anyway.

Look what happened to the military when they let people be openly gay: Nothing.

Maybe if we let the gays in, we'll finally get a decent uniform that looks nice and is functional? ;-)

It doesn't matter, does it? Count it whatever way you feel is appropriate to achieve the pack's objectives of providing fun scouting activities for the boys. The Pack Summertime Award exists to encourage you to hold fun activities during the Summer instead of throwing your hands up and saying, "Scouts is over till September!" That's all it's for. Use it for that. If you are holding pack activities during the Summer (pack activity being any activity that is for the whole pack), and you have three of them, then WAY TO GO!

BTW, I suggest you have the boys who attended three events during the summer put the streamer your unit receives on the flag themselves. Have some of them hold the flag and one of them tie in on. Then give the their pins.

I have some great leaders in my pack that do an awesome job. We lost only 2% of the cub scouts this year.

There is no way you could ever have pulled that off, Scoutfish, because my leaders are pretty sophisticated and never would have put up with your approach or your communication style.

I get results. Been getting them for years. I'll stick to my methods, and ignore the uniform nazis.

Oh look. An "ignore this user" function.

Click.

To the OP: No, the council doesn't really care who wears cub scout leader training awards. If they did, you couldn't just buy them at the scout shop.

Wearing them is largely the honor system.

You will find on these forums a disproportionately high number of scout police personalities than you will out in the real world. In the real world, as a commissioner, I'm just happy to see my leaders giving a hoot about the boys, following the program to their best ability, etc. It's all about the youth.

Our job as experienced scout leaders is to encourage other leaders to do a good job. It is not to enforce rules. We are not in charge of people. We are not their bosses. We are their inspiration.

If a guy goes to three roundtables instead of four, but seems to make up for it in some other way, hey, what the heck? Give him the knot. It doesn't hurt anyone except for the controlling types that want everything done to their personal preferences.

And while these guys are moaning about cub scout leader awards and taking themselves so seriously, be aware that there are plenty of silver beaver award holders out there who have the award for basically being a leader for ten years and being buds with the other leaders in the council. They are also a huge number of district merit awards basically given out as confirmation of coffee-club status to guys who didn't really do anything you aren't doing every day.

BSA is a funny program. The awesome awards and badges we all enjoy offer the opportunity to recognize achievement but also create a situation in which some are encouraged to berate, belittle, and try to bully others.

Scouting is supposed to be fun with a purpose. Remember what the purpose is, and do things that are fun. The uniform should be fun, and it serves a purpose. I fail to see any fun or any purpose in telling a guy "One too few round tables, bro. Fail."

Scouts is a fun hobby. We are not in the military. These are not awards given out by the president for saving life. They are training and trying awards.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

I've never had one of those ugly purple things on my uniform. When I was a kid, it was earned. I haven't earned it. Now everyone gets one, and it's ugly as sin. My uniform is mine for my fun. I put badges in the right places, but I don't always wear all of the badges I am supposed to. I don't like lodge flaps, trained patches, service stars, OA sashes, temporary patches or knots, either. My uniform is a council strip, uniform number, and a position patch. That's it. I wish it didn't have a flag on it. The old ones a long time ago didn't. I think the flag is tacky and looks like a security guard uniform.

The standard for requirements is "do your best." It is not "meet the requirements exactly as written perfectly." That has always been the standard in scouts.

The purpose of the adult awards is to create incentive to continue training and to perform well on the job. The purpose is to provide the youth with a great, motivated leader who knows what they are doing.

I recommend you base your decision on what to do next on those two key points.

In my area, district roundtable is a horrendous joke. It is one hour of leaders standing up making announcements. Most who attend are die-hards like me who go to see their buddies from other units. The new folks come once and never come back.

I can't require my den leaders to attend that round table for those knots. Round table isn't useful or productive.