BSA24

>>QUOTE Because the Order of the Arrow is principally a youth organization, unit, district, and council Scouters are not selected for membership as a recognition. Selection should take place only when the adult's position in Boy Scouting or Varsity Scouting will make Order of the Arrow membership more meaningful in the lives of the youth membership. END QUOTE

You can't have it both ways.

>> The reputation of the American Indian early culture is one where man lives harmoniously together with nature. That part of their culture allows us to blend the traditional of the scout program with the mystic of nature.

Johnponz writes, "My understanding is that the ceromonies have been clreared by rerpresentatives of the Indian tribes. If they have cleared them why do we all have a problem with them. Seems like a bit self rightous to me. "

That nonsense is repeated over and over again, and its the same logic that the US Government used to take their land in the first place. "We spoke to that guy over there, and he says it's OK. The rest of you are just malcontents."

We did a bobcat ceremony years ago where the den leader put yellow and blue stripes on the boy's cheeks. The boys loved it. The OA played their drum.

Oops: One of the boys was a pure native american. His mother was furious. After the ceremony, she was literally in tears. The face painting is religious for them. Their nation never had drums in their culture. The boys were dressed up like an enemy nation of the their tribe.

Her words: "How would you like it if we peed on a bible in our tribal meetings? Or how about if we dressed up like Nazis and had a club that your children were invited to join at school where one of us dressed up like Hitler?"

Regalia quality and ceremony acting quality have nothing to do with anything. Adults vs. Kids is also irrelevant. What matter is that white guys are dressing up like they are characters from many different civilizations we destroyed.

It isn't like dressing up like police officers or soldiers, knights or jedi, or other generalized roles which existed across cultures. We're picking a nation of people, and mocking them.

Whether you intend to honor them or not, it is still mocking them. You say you can make the regalia accurate? I doubt any chief of any nation in the world would look at it and say, "Yep, this is a great idea. Look at this cool stuff. Definitely. Right on, brother. Way to go."

There's no need for indians at an AOL ceremony. Ever. You guys defending this practice sound like the Southerners who defend the rebel flag. *redneck accent* "It's our history! You'll take it from my cold dead fingers!"

A Mohawk had great comments about it here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090925215755AANYIPP

BSA's membership numbers continue to plummet from year to year because BSA is more and more seen as a group of country, overweight bubbas and far right wingnuts.

Not all of us are like that. Some of us understand the difference between our own selfish fun and being sensitive and courteous and kind to others around us by not dressing up in costumes that mock them.

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>>The problem is the concept of the "Hollywood Indian," and it's so prevelent that some folks, when they do authentic, period regalia, they do not beleive it is real and that a lot of research has gone into it.

>>All of the Cubs in our Pack really love the OA American Indian ceremonies.

Perhaps your OA Ceremony Team simply needs to do a better job.

Or maybe our Pack is just full of UN-educated folks. Although I would bet that most of us uneducated yokels at least know enough to capitalize "Americans".

"Not permitted. I tried to arrange one kinda like Beav indicates (only Life Scout and above), but the Committee went bonkers and emailed the District Camping Chair and I was told in no uncertain terms that we could not do so. "

Several points:

The District Camping chair is a volunteer appointed by the district committee chair to hire event chairs for various camping trips. He cannot tell you what you can and cannot do. His word is only advice, and he holds no more authority than the scoutmaster of the unit across the street.

The committee hires and fires the scoutmaster, but they are not his boss and do not decide the camping program of the unit. The boys should be doing that with advice from the scoutmaster. The committee chair is the advisor to the SM and may try to influence him, but ultimately only has the power to fire him. The purpose of the troop committee is to support the SM in his job by doing the admin and money work.

If I were in your situation, here's what I would do:

* Take BSA's policies as advice not as rules - you can ignore them and people often do. They are there to protect BSA from lawsuits, not to help you or ensure actual safety.

* Have a sit down with your committee and remind them what their job is.

* Thank the district camping chair "Thanks" and then ignore him completely.

* Advise the boys they can do it if they don't wear uniforms, have parents permission, and don't do it as an official troop activity. No BSA insurance or policies need to be followed then.

What is the goal here? To have the boys expand their abilities, or to make a bunch of people who relish saying "no" happy?

The truth is that many units just scurry about their business with little or no contact with the district. Some won't even know there is a camping chair. I think some of those units probably operate better than the political ones that go to roundtable regularly and view the district as an authority figure.

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I've been in the OA for decades. I think the native american stuff is lame and I stay away from the dancing and ceremonies because I think it is absurd. I am in the OA to give cheerful service. I enjoy doing my part to keep camps running and repair things around the scout reservation. The indian junk I could do without. I know that for every Lakota screaming that we are violating their sacred culture there is a Cherokee in the OA saying this is all cool, but it still feels stupid to see black and white kids standing around in headdresses trying to talk like Graham Greene. It's time to let that stuff go, imo.

As for Cub Scout ceremonies - why is anyone having solemn, serious ceremonies? It's cub scouts? We laugh during ours. When we cross boys over, we talk casually during the ceremony to the kids - not try to make it a military medal presentation by badly reading from scripts.

I think pirates and jedi would be a cool crossover ceremony. I think inviting the OA in to do it is a huge wet blanket. Those are slow and generally offensive and uncomfortable for most 21st century educated americans.

Some of you kill me - and you kill the spirit of scouting. Insignia GUIDE, folks, not Insignia COMMANDMENTS. The phrasing of these responses and of some uniform police at scouting events... I feel embarrassed for some of you.

Let's talk about reality instead of imagined power that does not exist.

If I wear a black or red sash to an OA event, no one can do anything about it. What are you going to do? Drum me out? Seize it from me? Push me down and take my lunch money? No, you aren't going to do anything except come up like a nerdy know-it-all and say, "You aren't allowed to wear that."

I'm a friendly scout, so I will smile back and say, "Well, I'm wearing it. What now?"

And that's where it ends right there. You can go pound sand and cry yourself to sleep at night in your tent, because Scouting is not about having perfect uniforms. The uniform is a tool - nothing more.

And yes, the ends in scouting are exactly what justify the means - brotherhood, cheerfulness, and service - these are why the means exist.

Why is scouting membership declining? Because we are in danger of becoming a nerd festival of unpleasant rules enforcing jerks instead of smiling scouts who spend their time in services of others.

BSA24

Maybe you guys just aren't very nice to people, and you therefore don't get the best that people have to offer because of your abrasive approach. If you guys approach your eagle scouts with a smirky attitude and tell them they don't know everything and that you don't care if they are eagle scouts, don't be surprised when they don't want to do things you want them to do just to spite you. It's human nature.

I have ZERO trouble getting anyone to participate in training. My unit is always 100% trained - always has been - including the eagle scouts. My folks jump in the cars and we convoy to the location. I take it and retake it with them every time. Maybe it's because I tell each one of them how much I appreciate them every time I see them.

You may have hiked all of the place (I have as well), but there is no BSA training for people skills.

Basement: you should appreciate your eagle scouts for the same reason you thank god for the food on your table which also exists in overabundance and is obtained without effort... because you are lucky to have them and the day could come when you are looking around and there are none.

There are four phases to every organization's lifecycle:

1. Birth & Ramp Up: everyone is excited and gung-ho. Thanking everyone for their help or patronage is common. Lots of positive feelings and expressions of gratitude.

2. Complacency: everyone takes everything for granted. "Why should I care?" People are replacable, so just tick off anyone you want and move to the next. No problem.

3. Fork in the road: the organization is dying, everyone can see it, and emergency measures are taken to try to get it back on track. Either return to step 1, or go directly to step 4.

4. Death.

ScoutNut: a prejudicial remark without evidence. My experience with eagle scouts has been the opposite. They are the most difficult to recruit because they know what a huge burden leadership in a scout unit is, but once recruited, I have seen them go all-out all the way through wood badge. I did as well.

Why would eagle scouts stay in a unit where the unit leader feels they are a dime a dozen!?!? Talk about being unappreciated!

Cub Scout Leaders should take Baloo training before leading overnighters.

Webelos leaders should take Outdoor Leader Skills for Webelos Leaders (OLSWL - also called "OWLS" colloquially) before leading any den overnighters for webelos scouts.

You must always follow youth protection, which means never be alone with any boy without another adult present as a witness. It should be called Adult Protection. To always follow YP while leading five or more boys on a camping trip means that you need about four adults to go. That allows two to go one way and two to go another in the event of an injury. I would say three is the absolute minimum - that allows for smoking breaks or going off alone for a minute to cool off your head if you get frustrated with the boys for a minute.

Thus, what is required and what you should do are two different standards.

Last, Cub Scouting is a FAMILY activity, but Webelos Scouting, when done correctly, is not. I always try to recruit parents to go with us as leaders, but only as leaders. We set very firm guidelines restricting certain behaviors on webelos outings. We don't allow mom to bring "secret cupcakes" to bail the boys out when they don't feel like cooking. We don't limit outdoor hikes and activities to accommodate out of shape parents. We don't allow the parents to carry the boys' gear or set up their tents. We don't allow the parents to make the boys food. We show them how to fend for themselves and let them try things. Basic things. Easy things. We always have a plan B. Plan B never consists of "Oh, look! Mommy brought everyone pizza!"

It is my firm belief that packs have 40 tiger cubs and 5 webelos scouts because the den leaders assigned at the tiger cub age end up running the webelos den eventually, and they are not proficient at scoutcraft enough to do it, usually.

Cub Scouting has a major training issue with not teaching enough scoutcraft to cub scout adult leaders. The huge differential between an old eagle scout running a den and a typical volunteer parent running a den is minimal with tiger cubs. With webelos scouts, it is a critical issue.(This message has been edited by BSA24)

Reference the Cub Scout Leader Book - available at any Scout Shop at your council office or online at scoutstuff.org. It specifically states that there can be more than one assistant cubmaster. The cubmaster of a very small pack < 30 boys, can get away without having one at all. The cubmaster of a large pack with > 60 dboys may find that he needs two or three to pull off pack meetings successfully.

There are several functions ACM's are supposed to handle for the Cumbaster:

* Lead the unit in religious award pursuits and guide parents and religious leaders to resources needed. An ACM can be assigned to this function and work like a community organizer helping kids, families, and religious leaders work with the PRAY organization on earning religious emblems.

* Work with troop scoutmasters to recruit, train, and reward den chiefs. Provide den chiefs with training, etc.

* Help plan and deliver pack meetings.

None of those are committee jobs.

BSA should initiate a national survey of youth from age 9 to age 20 to find out how they feel about the scouts and why. A survey of youth not in the program. BSA can afford to do this, and it is surprising that such a survey and its results have not been published to date. It's the only way anyone is ever going to know for a fact what the problem is.

I've spoken with young men who haven't joined scouting for all of these reasons and all of them tied together:

* Do I have to dress like that?

* You guys are like nazi youth or something with your hate policies

* I don't have time.

* I'm bored doing citizenship in the nation/world/community/family. All you guys do is talk. I'd rather play playstation

Those are the four big objections I encounter - not from Tiger cubs and their parents - but from 10 year olds and up.

If you think the uniform is not a problem for the self-image of the boys who are members and recruiting, then please, by all means, convince your troop members to wear their full official uniforms to school once a week. Good luck with that.

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I skimmed it. It concerns me.

It seems to focus on top-down implementation of automation and IT tools rather than focusing on other major issues scouting has that cause membership levels to decline.

We've been shrinking since 1972 steadily and dramatically, and I don't see anything in there that is going to reverse that trend. I am afraid there is denial about what is causing the shrinking interest in scouting at the highest levels and therefore the solutions don't match the problems. The solutions may fix some actual problems people are experiencing, but will not cause more boys to enroll or fewer to drop out.

I believe the membership is shrinking for several reasons:

* BSA is out of step with today's youth on the gay/atheist issue. Way out of step. Note the recent survey of active duty military that came back with a huge majority in favor of repealing DADT. Fighting that trend = self-destructive. Do we really want the program to have such low membership we can no longer afford to maintain our campgrounds?

* BSA's current uniforming does not appeal to youth. Let's face it - boys are embarrassed to wear it to school, but not embarrassed to wear ROTC uniforms. Why?

* BSA has lost its outdoorsy-ness. Many parents (myself included) lead more family hikes than scout troops do. Scout troops often spend meeting time on things that are not outdoor skills, boring the scouts to death. The whole "I'm a scout - I'm manly and tough" has been lost as the outdoor program has diminished and been supplanted by academic topics.

* Electronic America has long work hours. Dad is so busy on his phone all day, and so is mom, that no one is ever available to take kids anywhere. Plus, baseball, football, basketball all practice in the evenings now instead of afternoons as they did back in the 1960's, so it conflicts with scouting. This is probably the main cause and least likely to be overcome.

I don't think giving commissioners and execs better tools and automation is going to fix any of that.

I predict that in 2015, there will be fewer members than today, and also a fewer percentage of available youth will be members.

Here's what I would rather see:

* End the gay\atheist ban and instead just ban public affection and discussion of religion in scout meetings. Continue with non-sectarian prayers. Let the LDS or others threatening to leave go, and take the hit now before it is too late to recover.

* Overhaul the uniform to look like military BDU's. I'm talking radical, "holy smokes!" overhaul that eliminates coloful patches entirely and is subtle (black and green) - black t-shirt, green cargo pants, green BDU jacket with black rank emblem on pocket, green and black unit numbers & CSP, etc. Boys would rather look like they are going on a SWAT mission than going to 1910. Either that, or give it up entirely and do an REI look and just adopt sports clothing like underarmor and nike nylon shirts and pants.

* Increase outdoorsmanship in scouts. Consolidate all citizenship merit badges into one. Change the Eagle Badge to respresent outdoorsmanship - make pioneering, camping, hiking, canoeing, swimming, fish and wildlife conservation, leatherwork, wood carving, life saving, and other outdoor activity badges required for eagle and de-emphasize anything that is not classical scoutcraft.

* Work with local sports organizations and school districts to see about getting scouting back into schools and "scouting night" off-limits to sports in that area. Scouting needs to tie into the community, recruiting local county and city leaders to help support the program instead of ignoring those people and focusing on recruiting youth directly.

I'm afraid to save the program, the program itself must be re-made, and the focus at the district, council, and national level, must be on image rehabilitation and lobbying local leaders, not on automation and IT Tools. To have a scouting program, we have to attract youth. Hammering them with citizenship and character instead of lacing in outdoor activities is running them off, so is dressing in Oscar Dela Renta, so are conflicting cultural values and conflicting scheduling.

Lisabob - well said.

Youth are not in danger from not receiving beads. The Scouting program will not fall apart without the beads.

Do you really want to die on that hill? Because if you nag me about the beads twice, I might just stand up, hand you the den leader patch, and walk out the door.

The youth are in danger from not having leaders. The scouting program will fall apart without the leaders.

Just go to the scout shop and buy your own beads, parents, and give them out yourself to your kid at home. Even better, go to tandy leather company, buy a leather totem, and teach your child to make their own and dye it. It's not an eagle scout award. Anyone can buy the beads.

"Fun with a purpose." NOT "Arguing about the rules and regulations with some fun."

The non-sectarian nature of Scouting is a passion of mine. The number of times Scout leaders get diverse groups together and then say a sectarian prayer or make sectarian remarks is not few. It is difficult to ask someone who is passionate about religion to dial back their expression of it. They often feel attacked and threatened and do not understand how being non-sectarian can be a good thing.

I think we all get a little over-amped up about being brave. "A Scout is brave - he has the courage to stand for what he thinks is right even if others laugh at or threaten him." When we are not Christian, we are sometimes a little over-assertive in demanding our rights to be heard, and a little overly loud in protesting every Christian display we come across.

When we are deeply Christian, which manifests as a very evangelical religious experience amongst many believers, it may feel we are under attack and that God's Own Truth is being challenged by barbarians who believe wrongly. We may feel we are being brave by standing up to these people and demanding that Christ's Truth be the only truth presented - for the good of all souls in the world. We may even say this to people's faces as if we are doing them a favor by correcting their false beliefs.

But as scouts we also pledge ourselves to be courteous, kind, and friendly. And it is not possible to say we are following The Scout Law when we stand up for what we think is right not when others may threaten us, but when others say we are being discourteous, unkind, and unfriendly to them.

A Scout is courteous, kind, and friendly, which to me means we put extra effort into putting each other at ease and making them comfortable around us and in the world. Scouting's most famous service to humanity is to provide random acts of kindness - good turns.

It seems in keeping with the Scout Law that we, who openly declare we are an organization which is welcoming of all who believe in the Almighty and recognize his hand at work in the Universe, follow our law and be consistent with that message in all things that we do.

If it pains us, then the sacrifice is more noble, and we are truly being brave.

Imagine this. Imagine a Muslim camp chaplain leading prayer before a meal asking all of the boys to face toward Mecca and drop to their knees repeatedly. There would be an outcry of protest! People would look at each other as if they were being asked to throw a virgin into a volcano after chopping her head off with an axe.

I think that's the way other faiths feel when they see us put nothing but Bible Stories in Boy's Life while saying we are non-sectarian. Non-sectarian means that no particular faith has any place in the scouts - it is to be handled at home with religious leader and family. Boy's life should probably drop the comic strip in keeping with that policy.

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MyScouting has this definition: "The definition of a BSA Alumni is a former Scout, a current or former Scout leader, family members of current or former Scouts, and anyone who is supportive of the Scouting program and would like to be connected. "

I think that is a pretty bad definition of "Alumni." Maybe they should have used the word "supporter" or "patron" instead.

There are basically two extremes of CO:

* Ignore your unit but let you use the building all you want and sign whatever you want

* Get all up in your business and start messing with how things work to a point that you won't be a "unit leader" any longer

I have served under both. I prefer the first. In fact, I always prefer the first over every other kind. When I had that, I thought it was a bad thing that the CO was so uninvolved. However, I now think that was actually a good thing for us.

Count your blessings.

I don't think bible stories in Boy's Life are in the top then of issues I would like to see BSA focus on and address.

That being said, I am concerned with some of your responses. These are never valid reasons to ignore other people's suggestions for improvements:

* It's always been that way (and slavery had always been that way too)

* It isn't intended to offend (doesn't matter what the intent is)

* You have too much time on your hands (so do you if you have time to read this)

These are the slogans behind which we gather when we are resisting change. But without past changes, we would today be living in caves slinging our own feces at each other in anger. So, no change for change's sake, but change isn't a bad thing.

I'd think that in 2010, and with obvious Buddhist and other faiths participating in Scouting, that it's time to rename the series and include stories from faiths around the world rather than just Bible Stories.

If that is not acceptable, then obviously the intent was absolutely to indoctrinate and favor one religion and the comic strip should be removed.

If it makes sense to get rid of different border colors on lodge flaps, then it makes sense to get rid of different sashes.

They are the same in every respect: a visual symbol of social status within an organization.

Calling them honors instead of ranks or degrees instead of ranks is meaningless semantics. If you have the different sashes, then allow the different border colors. If the border colors are a problem, then the different sashes are also a problem.

Choose.

After reading the entire thread, a few thoughts:

* It is an insignia GUIDE, not an insignia RULE BOOK

* If it doesn't harm your scouting program, or put the youth in some sort of jeopardy, then probably it is not worth any stress on your part

* It is your shirt, and they are your awards

* I wear my Eagle medal and God & Country medal right under my knots to fancy events. I encourage my leaders (I too am a Cubmaster) to wear any bead necklaces the district gives out for going to round table, wear the knots we award them for their service, and to wear any mom or dad pins their boys have put on them.

"Scouting is a jolly game" - it is supposed to be fun with a purpose.

Someone show me the purpose in telling an old eagle scout that "general policy" says he is not to wear his eagle medal. Nonsense. Wear it proudly. You earned it, and it shows the boys what they are working for.

I don't know how they are defining "alumni" officially, but my opinion is that an alumni is an adult who was once a Boy Scout.

I don't really consider a volunteer leader no longer involved an "alumni" of the scouting program. I think of old eagle scouts when I think of alumni.

BDPT00, you are welcome to disagree.

I'm a volunteer. You can fire me, but you can't tell me what to do. Last I checked, no one has been fired for wearing a father's eagle pin on their uniform shirt, so it looks like our business here is concluded.