Eagle94-A1

5 minutes ago, DannyG said:

Our troop has allowed it on extenuating circumstances (ie. parent drops off kid at camp late and leaves) but it doesn't always work for everyone. Sometimes the troop is camping for fun nearby, so we can make it work out . Sometimes the troop is out on a trek in the wilderness and you wouldn't be able to find us as easily. But I think we have to realize this gap exists on the older side of the program, not just Cubs.  I see both sides.

During COVID, we had no choice but to allow families to pick up and drop off. Since everything was within 90 minutes (usually 45 minutes or less, but that one day trip) we had a few issues, but they were workable.

HOWEVER post COVID  had a major trip, 6+ hours away. family was going to be in the area prior to us and afterwards, so the decision to let us meet and drop off and pick up was made. That was a mistake. We got to the meet up point about 30 minutes late due to an accident on the highway. Family was upset that we were late. When asked when to expect arrival for pick up, we told them one time, but also said we could get back earlier, depending upon the backpacking pace. We said we would call them if we got back earlier.  We did get back 2 hours earlier than anticipated, and called them. Because of the remoteness of the area cell service was limited and we could not get them. We waited and attempted to get them multiple times. The parents show up an hour after we told them. Yes we waited for 3 hours for the parents to show up. We could have been almost halfway to home. The Scouts were not happy.

10 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

We might consider making the program more inviting by offering additional day camps or 1-night camping options. I find this preferable to an indoor program (or no program).

Wise man once said, "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING." ( The author of the 2010's edition misquoted him, he obviously didn't do the math).

Scouting and sports are two completely separate programs, with completely different goals and objectives.

So jealous.

2 minutes ago, HashTagScouts said:

Also factor in impact to unit planning. If your council is different than ours, God bless. I can look at our council calendar today for August-December, and there are no dates for camporee listed. I can see OA weekend dates and NYLT weekend dates. Our unit is not unlike many around us, that planning meeting with PLC will take place before the end of July. If we don't have event dates to consider, then those events are not going to be considered. We will give deflection to not plan our weekend for one of the months there is an OA weekend for those who wish to attend that, but we aren't going to plan around both months. 

Well, at least your council isn't cancelling events with little to no forewarning. 3 events have been canceled so far this year.

4 hours ago, Tron said:

You are correct, and it's funny how this unit has higher costs because they are going out of council. By refusing to participate in the council of registry they have become a cash cow for the neighboring council. Man it sure is thrifty when that unit pays all those out-of-council fees in neighboring councils. 

Depends. Are the units getting value from the out of council fees? If paying an extra $25-$35 gives the Scouts a better experience, yes it is worth it.  I can tell you I have been to some camps that until major improvements in staffing occur, we will not go there. 

Scouting Adventure should start in 4th grade. more later

WOW.  

I wish that would have been the case for friends of mine. One friend of mine had the cable line across the street from his house. His house was less than 100 feet from the poles they were using, and they would not connect him.

Worse was the friend who, lived on a corner lot. because his physical address was on a street not in their service area, they would not connect him to the network despite the cable going through his side yard, and connecting neighbors on the street his address was not on.

10 minutes ago, OaklandAndy said:

Our camp upgraded it's wifi to help leaders who need to work. While it's only accessible from "base camp" and not at the campsites.... 

You are lucky. There are some places that are so remote, big telecom does not provide internet services. Only option is satellite, which is extremely pricey. Sadly out state legislators nixed local government agencies from forming their own after big telecom complained about losing customers in the two areas that had it.

2 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Your camps have a McDonald's nearby !?!? 😛

I'm jealous. Our favorite council camp is way the heck out there. It's delightful ... until you need something.

35-40 minutes away is the McDonald.

38 minutes ago, DannyG said:

They don't put in anything close to 40 hours that week, but they are able to knock out some work hours on WiFi.

Your camps have wifi? LOL

Seriously, wifi in the past has been a serious concern. There is one camp the troop likes that has extremely pour internet, to the point where their office staff will take turns driving into town to use the local McDonald's wifi.

I have found that pros come and go, usually on a yearly basis. And most folks stay around until their kids age out the movement. There has always been a cadre of long time volunteers, whose knowledge. skills, abilities, time, and treasure could be relied upon to keep things running. I have been in multiple councils in my 42 years of Scouting. And that fact is one of the few constants.

1 hour ago, Jameson76 said:

They expect Cubs part 2 and we scare them.  Programming for 11 year olds means the youth likely leave in a year or 2.  Need to challenge and inspire.

Yeah the parents are not the ones who are ready, especially in those packs that wait until 5th grade to begin transitioning.

Problem since circa 2008 when Cub Scout Leader Specific came out, IMHO.  The Webelos DL section is almost cut and pasted from CSDL section. And now that training is modular and online, many folks think they are trained for all levels because they got most of the modules completed already, and they have been a DL for 1-4 years already. WDLs are continuing with CSs at 4th and 5th Webelos level. And now national will be making it worse with the new program. I expect retention to drop further, as older Cub leaders, or folks trained by them,  will no longer be allowed to begin the transition process in 4th grade as it was intended since circa 1990s.

Why I really miss the in person, all day Cub Scout Leader Basic Training as it went over all the CS levels, as well as Pack level roles.

7 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

The damage that the traditional male gender role causes is certainly very real and a problem to solve for sure. The suffering is so unnecessary. I'm surprised to hear that people would divorce someone for needing support - you know, scratch that, I've heard of people divorcing their spouses after a cancer diagnosis. Some people are just... Not considerate. But unlike cancer, divorcing someone for breaking gender roles has a pattern to it that can be more systematically addressed than being people being shallow.

You may be quite surprised at the number of divorces because the man is no longer able to support his family, or gets critically ill and the wife is unwilling to support him. And you would be surprised at the number of men, who bust their butts supporting their wives in higher education, only to divorce them once they got what they want. It is a lot more common than you think

7 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

This issue has indeed been around forever, and I knew about it when I was a scout. Feminism was a big topic of discussion in middle and especially high school. There was a lot of mutual exploring of how traditional gender roles impact girls and boys, men and women. How we had felt in various situations, what we wished would have been the situation instead. Obviously, the general gist always ended up being that we resolved to consciously support other people who didn't want to be imprisoned by their gender role, and used each other's experiences to understand better what to say and do to let people know that we didn't really care if they didn't conform to their gender role. Tangential but related, I heard a lot of complaints from my male friends and my BF about the constant pecking order checking and re-checking. Sounds exhausting! 

Sadly women say they want men who break gender norms, but in actuality do not. This is based on my personal experience, observations, and from reading research conducted on the topic. 

7 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

But I was a little surprised to see this, because one pattern of behavior I've seen men take literally for decades to help themselves survive while working to slowly weaken the grip of gender roles is to seek out female friends and co-workers... And patrolmates. My husband had groomswomen at our wedding, because this was exactly what he did. Being a girl with STEM and outdoorsy interests, I've been a talk-about-your-feelings friend for many a male friend. So to me, gender-integrated patrols is the obvious solution to the problem you bring up. You can have the situation of a few girls being together in that close way, and a male patrolmate can just join the atmosphere if he wants. Some did, some didn't. Their choice. Similarly, I was able to see that I can also rise to the 'provider' role, I can be the strong caretaker if that's what's needed. We girls all did in part because of the nature of scouting activities but probably also because it's less taboo for girls to act like boys than vice versa. The female gender role has weakened more than the male role.

I do not believe gender integrated patrol will solve the problem. Based upon my experiences and observations not only in Scouts, but in multiple environments, when teenage boys get together by themselves, they act one way. As soon as a girl is in the picture, there is the competition to get her attention.

regarding the guys you had the talks about feeling with, if you were single, would you date any of them?

7 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

The phenomenon that I never saw was boys my age saying "I need time away from girls in my own boys-only space". I didn't see any boys-only friend groups past third grade. Sometimes refugees from the Bosnian war would drive around town in all-male groups, and it was notable that they never, ever had any girls with them. Had we been saying sus like the alpha kids, we definitely would have called it sus. 

Probably because boys won't admit it to girls. Again when girls are around, the focus is on getting their attention.

Another factor, membership losses are that bad that it affects the ratio.

4 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Just saw our council's numbers... from a year ago at this time, we are down almost 8% of our youth numbers, and almost 12% of our adult numbers.

The patient is very ill.

And, I noted something curious... our registered adult to youth ratio? 1 : 1.8

We have one registered adult for every 1.8 youth in the council...  I am cogitating on that one for a while.

Thoughts?

A few reasons why this may be the case, but I do not know.

1. MBCs are now a paid  position, so they are now included

2. the 18-21 crowd, the 'Adult participants" are now being included

3. A lot of folks are getting tired of the constant increases in prices.

14 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Another random thought...

When we offer the option of fully coed Troops, will there be an ongoing need for Venturing?

Maybe that is why the Venturing Director made that announcement. To quote Han Solo:

The OA has lost a lot of meaning in my neck of the woods. And now that everybody who wants in gets in. None of my Scouts are interested. In the past 6 years, only 1 person wanted in, and he was pushed by his dad who was an Arrowman in his youth. He did the Ordeal, and went to a meeting, and it was so bad he never went again.

As for 2 of my sons, despite telling the OA election team they were not interested in joining the OA and remove their names from the ballot, their names remained and they did get elected. But never did their Ordeal. The reason they told me was that the OA is no longer a true honor society like it was in my day. There was a Call out where several Scouts my boys and I knew got elected and eventually became Arrowman, All of us knew one of them was a serious problem, especially camping, and wondered how he got elected. When they asked their friends in that Scout's troop how he got elected, they were told everyone gets in, its no big deal.

What really hurt me was that when I was the chapter advisor, and we were rebuilding out chapter and lodge's AIA program, my oldest helped me with the drum and drumsticks. he heard my stories, and couldn't wait to get in. But by the time he became eligible,  talking to his friends who were in said it was no big deal and he lost all interest.

14 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

As a Troop, we have seen massive losses before crossover, so we are looking to pilot running the 5th grade AOL program.  Our plan is to hold AOL meetings concurrently with Troop Meetings had have our Troop Guide and a ASM run the den meeting.   Basically take over for the den leaders.  Not sure if it will work, but we figured it can't be worse than what has been happening the last 3 years.

With respect, I would start with the 4th grade Webelos. I was around in the old 3 year Cub Scout program, when you had 9-12 months to earn both Webelos and AOL and cross over. One year was not enough time to prepare for the differences in programs.

When the 18-24 month program came out in the 1990s, it was based upon research, and the training of the time emphasized the differences between the two programs and how Webelos needed to start transition in 4th grade. When the training got updated circa 2009, that information was not emphasized as much as the older training.  IMHO separating all the DL trainings into 3 different courses, was a mistake as folks will take 1 training, and assume Tigers, Wolves and Bears, and Webelos are all the same. Then going online where there is no human interaction AND folks can just play the training and do other stuff further exacerbates the issue.

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

National has rarely shown to make changes to better the program toward a better program.

Barry

Last time National improved the program, Bill Hillcourt had to come out of retirement to lead it.

15 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

 this just wasn't a thing when I was that age myself and now it is.

2 reasons.

1. Guys will always hide their feelings, emotions, and turmoil. Especially when when trying to make an impression on similarly aged females. But even as adults the societal norm is that men need to be the tough, unemotional and independent, despite that folks say otherwise. Sadly I know folks who have major physical and emotional traume, and when they go to their wives or significant others, they have been told to deal with it themselves, or worse divorced because the health issue caused roles to be reversed. Their support is all men's groups, and even then some of this doesn't get discussed.

2. Since it didn't affect you directly, you never noticed. This has been around for quite some time.

1 hour ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

TBH when Scouting America announced that they would allow girls to join, but hastened to add gender -separated still to preserve the benefits of that, my immediate thought was "what benefits?" They never even explained what they were meant to be, and until encountering this anxiety about girls in Scouting America I had never heard of all these problems with doing things together with the opposite gender at any and all ages, not just in scouting but anywhere.

Western Society has focused on girls and women for the past 40+ years. Even the current studies that say girls need all girl environments at times, neglects the fact that boys need it as well.  It's on my to read list, after I finish my current series, but A SELF MADE MAN, written by a women who impersonated a man for 18 months, discusses how society is so focused on women, that the mental, physical, and social needs of men are completely neglected. The author's  conclusion:  "I really like being a woman. ... I like it more now because I think it's more of a privilege."

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Well, I take that back - I have heard about it from refugees. But from my Swedish POV their complaints sound like optional problems to have, since nobody else is having them, not even all refugees. I hear what they're saying, but it doesn't 'click' with my own experiences and the fact that the ones with issues with people doing things with the opposite gender are also from countries with little respect for women doesn't help endear me to their angst. My own experiences with men from those countries easily top my personal 'most sexist experiences' list. I mention this so that you know that this "genders need to be separated" idea is in my mind strongly associated with sexism with the intent to disenfranchise women, take away our freedom to do as we please, and treat us like sex objects. I'm not saying that everyone talking about the need for gender separation in any circumstance ever, but because the association is so strong you should be aware that it's there. The subject triggers it.

Part of having a discussion  is the ability to leave your prejudices behind and listen folks are actually saying.
 

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It's like that for me also with this boys need their own space line of thinking I hear people express here. It doesn't seem to be 'boys' as much as 'some boys', and I'm not entirely sure what the problem is exactly. My best guess is social anxiety based on what I've read. It's not a problem everyone is having. People allude to it but rarely get specific enough to problem-solve, and the correlation between more sexism and more gender separation is the elephant in the room.

Not really. Folks find their ways But what is upsetting is when boys lose their safe spaces, but girls do not. Some areas, like athletics, boys have their own space because of Title 9 forcing to have equal number of women's sports. But even then that can hurt boys. I know one university who had enough interest to field teams in two different sports, but because there was no interest by girls to increase their number of sports, those guys had to stick with being in a "club league" and not be a varsity team.

More later.

3 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

You had 1 male and 1 female in a tent together and never had any contact of a sexual nature occur?  

At one European camp I was at, the couple were not responding to anyone, and folks pulled the tent pegs out to have the tent collapse to get their attention.

3 minutes ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

As long as it's consensual, I don't care.

My point was more that scouting isn't automatically going to turn into a meat market just because you have girls and boys scouting together. I see a lot of FUD about this and since it's so far all scared speculation as opposed to lived experience I figure sharing would be helpful.

With respect, I was in a coed Sea Scout Ship, adviser in several coed Explorer Posts/Venturing Crews, and also did several international Scouting activities, including a WSJ.  I saw a lot of couples, and I have seen a lot of problems.