DuctTape

Besides helicopter parents; those who hover waiting to swoop in to save, there are also velcro parents who are attached to their childs hip for all activities. They have a difficult time separating their childs activities from their own.

An adult with no experience can learn along with the boys. The boys have less risk aversion and thus are usually more interested in taking the next step of the adventure continuum if we let them. Too often adults either dont allow the scouts to take the next step or they try to push the scouts to take too big a step which requires the adult to do too much.

For the former, I encourage the scouts to take the next step in their adventure by telling stories and asking questions. For the latter, I ask the adult which scout is leading the adventure.

The main problem is the current use of "teaching", "classes", "universities" when referring to merit badges. Scouting is not supposed to be done as school. When we use school terms to describe the scouting process, it devolves into school. The adults are supposed to be merit badge COUNSELORS not teachers. The point as you said is to inspire, and encourage. I say this as a professional educator. My teaching hat stays at home during scouts.

Both begin with a premise, and the logical (mathematical) consequences can be derived. If the consequences are not supported by observation, one possibility is the premises were incorrect in part or in full.

I guess I went off on a tangent if my scouting and didnt stay on topic of the free-range kids. But that was a common theme in the scouts for us. Adults were around, but we didnt see them. We made all our own decisions.

In the neighborhood, the kids were often in some group playing somewhere. It was like a neighborhhod patrol, but just not scouts. We played in the woods, rode our bikes. Went fishing. Be home for dinner and tell us where you are going were the only requirements.

Like others, I grew up camping, canoeing and fishing. It was all with my family. As I got older I remember we (my sister and I) were allowed to ask a friend to join us for the camping trips. These were car plop trips, tons of fun with a buddy along. Fishing and canoeing became a father-son thing and stayed that way until I went away to college.

At some point in elem school I came home and said I wanted to join cub scouts. My father was in scouts as was his father, but he didnt want to push me into it. He was happy I chose to do it on my own. He and 3 other adults shared being den leader and we rotated after school to their houses for den meetings. I recall a lot of fun, woodworking, leathercraft. Built small bridges with wood and cardboard and played with our matchbox cars on them. I am sure this was part of some arrow point or bead as I still have all those items. I do not recall caring too much about rank or awards at the time.

The pack events were lame. Big productions, the pinewood derby and banquets. Not much went on for us, we spent most of our time goofing around within the adult scheduled agenda. The only fun part I remember about the pinewood derby was at our den meetings when we had fun building our cars. They were ugly and not superfast, they had zero adult interference. They were ours, and because of that we were proud of them.

I did get the arrow of light. I recall being proud of that achievement. Our Webelos den visited a number of troops that spring. We went on a few of their camping trips. I recall one in a big cabin where all we did was sit inside and play cards the whole time. Half of the den chose one troop, and about a quarter went to another. I went with the larger group.

We didnt join the troops we visited that spring, we waited until the fall. We did one last webelos camping trip that summer.

In the fall when we all joined our troops there was no ceremony. We showed up and the patrols were already together iirc. Somehow we ended up in the patrols which had some older boys in them . I dont remember seeing tha adults much, I think they were in a different room. The oldest boys in my patrol were the PL's turns out they were only a few years older than me. But at this age, one or 2 years older seems like a lot. I looked up to them both figuratively and literally.

We had troop campouts but did everything as a patrol. A lot of scout skill games at troop meetings, patrol vs patrol. Went to summer camp and had great times.

I do not recall my age or rank, but at some point at my fathers insistence we switched to a different troop. I found out years later there was a serious safety concern that would not be addressed by the SM.

At the new troop wwere some of the guys from my old webelos den plus others I didnt know.

This troop was also a patrol method, boy led troop. Though there was more focus on advancement. To shorten this tale, I continued with this troop until the end of high school. We backpacked, canoe camped, did summer camp. It was a very positive experience.

Throughout my scouting time, my father and I continued our own adventures. I would often invite a scouting friend to join us. Sometimes we would go back to our patrol and suggest a new idea based on what we did with my dad (sometimes my buddy's dad came too). My patrol hated cleaning pots and pans so we became rather adept at cooking in the coals (no stoves). We had aluminum foil trash to deal with, but that trade-off was worth it. I recall one meal my buddy jeff did for us: pork chops with onions and apples in the foil. It was really good. We cooked stick bread to go with it.

After college I was hiking in the area where I had done my eagle project and noticed that others had continued and maintained the work I had done many years before. That made me feel good. It also reminded me of how much scouting meant to me so I began my career volunteering at local troops. I have no boys of my own, but I am obliged to give back.

My wife always has me drive, then complains I am not going fast enough.

I take a very different approach. One of the benefits I and others who posted gained from scouting had to do with financial management. The way I see it, the isa and even troop accounts done "all legal" far too often take away the opportunities from the patrol and the individual scouts to learn something about money and finances. One troop I volunteered at did great fundraising, it was all organized by the parents. The scouts just showed up to "work". The amt of $ raised was considerable. Every campout (all activities for that matter, even dues) were funded by this event. The only exception was a partial funding of summer camp. So besides the event being adult run, the biggest problem I saw was the spending of the $. Campout with 4 patrols, they all show up to the store with their menus and are "allowed" $10 per boy. The patrol gathers up all their food and goes to checkout with the troop treasurer (adult) who writes a check for the food as long as it came in under the maximum. The boys were denied the opportunity to learn about collecting $ from patrol mates, remembering to even bring it, etc... When I mentioned it to the SM, the response was "its easier this way". Well of course it is easier, the boys didnt do much and learned nothing. Stosh would point out the boys learned that they dont need to do anything because the adults do it all for them. What is most sad, is I have seen many financial systems in troops which deny the boys the opportunity to learn to do things for themselves. Isn't that kind of the point of all this?

So my take is not what is legal, blah blah, but instead what provides the best opportunities for the boys to learn to do for themselves. Certainly not accounts managed and controlled by the adults.

Most of the camping I see troops (not patrols) doing do not need WFA. All is needed is what Stosh says, because sending someone for help can be done easily and help is not far away. In WFA, Horizon is on point. Help is not nearby, and likely days away. Requiring WFA for an organization which promotes front country large group camping will only perpetuate the fear of the deep dark woods in adults. Soon they will be even to scared to camp in the local park because the trees might drop a pinecone on little johny.

Stosh is right. This is also just another step away from boy led adventures to adult guided trips.

We used to call them "bean holes", due to using them to cook baked beans.

“we do not go to the green woods and crystal waters to rough it, we go to smooth it.â€

My problem is my boys get all excited about the marketing packages of the freeze dried "food" and want that.  I ALWAY repackage proportioned, regular food, i.e. rice, noodles, pudding, pancakes, etc. in zip lock, mark them up and eat often times what I would normally eat anyway.  Even then, when backpacking the really long distances, I do rely on foraging to supplement the food.  I remember going to Canada fishing with the buddies and only took rice and oil.  We ate like kings!  As you can attest, frying up lake trout doesn't take very long at all.   Minute Rice is really about 5 minutes...  

 

Agreed. Sometimes we grill the fish to mix it up.

I missed your line about tossing a line. We did, and ate lake trout every day.

We did eat extremely well. Due to mileage per day, we couldnt spend a lot of time cooking, so meals needed to be that which wouldnt take extremely long.

I too use specific language, and there is at least one place where we appear to disagree even though I have tried to address it. That being the insistence that freeze dried junk is the only option when backpacking. I may not eat as well on my backpacking trips as I do on other trips, but it doesnt mean I use prepackaged freee dried stuff. There exists a continuum of food options with the freeze dried at the extreme.

Definitely need to do the math. I think we agree on most things. My last two longer treks this past summer were both 10 days with no resupply. One was canoeing without any portages (Lake Superior) the other was a 135 mile backpack (Adirondack Mtns). Last weekend I did a 2 night plop camp. Different gear and food for all 3 trips. All were great experiences which I wouldnt trade one for the other.

I dont think anyone would claim that backpacking food is equal to plop camping fare. They are two different activities. But "survival food" is the far end of a very wide spectrum of food options. Of course Stosh, you pointed out the precise reason for one to choose backpacking food, it is so one can go on that activity. If one chooses to only plop camp because the entire focus of the experience is the gastro-delight then they might miss out on other things. But just because the food options and cooking times/techniques are slightly more limited doesnt mean the food must be terrible. Regardless of plop camping or backpacking or canoeing, etc... the choice of the activity, destination, food all involve some sacrifice somewhere. But whatever the sacrifice, it doesnt mean it is terrible. There are many plop camping destinations which are quite nice, but would not hold a candle to other destinations which require backpacking to visit. This doesnt mean it is terrible just because something might be better. But if you want to cook in a DO and use certain foods you cannot choose the backpacking destination or other specific adventures. This doesnt make any trip inferior,just different. One chooses the gear, food, etc... to maximize enjoyment for the particular activity and destination.

I disagree that backpacking cooking is crappy tasting survival food. For some perhaps it is, but it need not be. Like all cooking, it depends on the skill of the cook and the ingredients one brings.

Could not agree more Stosh.

That's one aspect of these sorts of discussions that bother me.....

I guess I'm more of a wanna be backpack camper, since I've done far more plop or tailgate camping in my time... But I enjoy it and wish that I had more opportunity & skill to really get out there off the grid...

So aside from the lesson of teamwork and such in this plop patrol cooking, I think it would be great if scouts showed more focus on backpack style cooking, and even on an individual level of cooking for one or only a few.... such as will likely be done in their future non-scout camping

 

.... just like Stosh explains....

 

This is the kind of outdoor cooking skill i wish I would have gained in scouts.

 

Baking in a mess kit, that's a new one for me.....  

Seems like there would be way too many hot spots and temp control would be hard...

 

Baking being the one big novelty of dutch oven cooking that I think most folks find impressive.....

 

But I sure would like to take a few lessons from you @@Stosh!

 

I had one of those aluminum kits a long time ago, but sadly never learned to use it at your level.  I think I'll keep my eye out for a good one!

 

 

Temp control and hots spots is what makes baking (and cooking general) in Al mess kits the challenge. Which is why I said DO cooking was easy. It is relative. 

I encourage my patrols leaders to have their inexperienced scouts learn to cook for themselves first before making a group meal. Some of the patrols over the years liked it so much they rarely had a patrol cook, they would pair up or cook individually within their patrol. Sometimes it was everyone having the same thing. other times it was completely different. They said they liked to do it their own way, meaning some liked certain ingredients that others didn't. I remember once they made pizzas; each kid wanted different toppings. They had fun. Which is the most important thing in my book. 

Agreed Stosh. I have my grandfathers scout mess kit. The frying pan portion is actually steel.

My own personal mess kit isnt a bsa one, but a few items I put together myself which can accomplish the tasks.

Advanced SERE training. Done!

Done it. Easy. Dutch ovens do the work and also keep everything warm, so timing is a non issue. I challenge you to do the same with just a scout mess kitcand an open fire, no charcoal.

Backyard adventure doesn't sell Jamboree slots.

Agreed. If that is the metric used by national, it is no wonder they suck at marketing.

Additionally, the scouts can and should move on to adventures farther and farther from their backyard.

If adults can see that it is adult led, the boys have figured it out a looong time ago and will adjust accordingly.  If the adults want to run this show, we'll let them, but when they complain about us not doing anything, we will tacitly make it known that it's not our problem, we're not running the show and there's nothing we can do to fix it, we don't have the authority.

 

95% of the discipline problems of the standard adult-led troop are adult self inflicted.

Agreed 100%