BrotherhoodWWW

The Scoutmaster would know if your son was elected. After the election the OA Lodge notifies those elected in a call out ceremony. Some Lodges also notify Ordeal Candates by mail with a registration form for the Ordeal. Some Lodges do the call out during summer camp, some at a spring Camporee. It is up to the Scoutmaster if the names of those selected are made public to the Troop prior to the call out.

My advice is for you to talk to the Scoutmaster. If your son was elected and has not been called out then a phone call to the Lodge's Lay Advisor or Staff Advisor would be reasonable. Each candidate has 12 months from the date of their election to complete an Ordeal. The Ordeal must be conducted by the lodge of his Troops Council. Outside lodge's may call out with prior written permisson from the Lodge Chief.

This is some of the worst news I've read in a long time. I first went to summer camp at Cowles with a provisional Troop. In 1980 I was a member of the Youth Staff. That same year I underwnet my OA Ordeal at that Scout camp and a Section W1C Conclave that fall. The next year I went through Brotherhood. To say that i have memories of the place......

I wish the Inland Northwest Council would look a bit to the west and to Grand Columbia Council and ask questions about our recient bad expierneces in building a new lodge. I do not know all the details but what I heard did not make me happy. I hope the effort to save Finch Lodge is successful.

Even though this is an Old topic I feel the need to respond. I'm not sure how my son's Troop's Patrols do it now since they have not had a campout yet since he crossed over.

I do however remember how it used to be done when I was a youth. Prior to the camping trip after a menu was planned a shooping list was created. One or two patrol members would go to a local grocery store and price all the food. A total was then diveded by the number of patrol members going. With that amount rounded to the next whole dollar the fee was collected by the one or two shoppers. In this way there was always plenty of food. Scouts did all the planning and shopping. Valuable life lessons were learned by all about budgeting and shopping. This shopping responsibility was passed from scout to scout each campout. In a couple years time each scout had done it. Some may think pre-pricing is a waste of time. Before jumping to that conclusion think what it teaches about shopping vs buying. It also gives a Scout one more oppurtunity to actually do a Scouting activity. That alone seems better than some other possible activities a youth could be doing. BTW when I was a youth we walked to the grocery store to do all this. I learned at a young age how bread is not the easiest thing to pack for camping.

Once the shopping was done the meat was frozen and the menu planned in such a way as to only allow enough time for the meat to thaw prior to cooking. We always purchase powdered milk and made what was need for each meal. Some things we commonly refrigerate in our homes do not require it, eggs would be one example. Most of my earliest campouts were without the use of an ice chest(coolers were for rich folk back then!)

Scouting has become a business. Local council execs spend more time dealing with numbers and ratios than I'd guess they did years ago. I also think that the "target" audience for Scouting has shifted to younger. The target audiance for the BSA now spans from first grade until 21 years of Age, and beyond if one wants to be an adult leader. Years ago I do not think you found very many eagle scouts without driver's licenses, today most probabaly earn (?) Eagle prior to even taking Driver's Ed. The first Eagle Service project I helped was in 1975. The Life Scout had a driver's license, drove his families station wagon containing myself and 2 or 3 other scouts to a park across the county line. IIRC we fixed some picnic tables. The troop we were in had functioning patrols and competition between Patrols at both the troop, district, and Council level was serious business.

As society has become more urban I think National has adapted the program to fit the needs of a more urban population. Many of the places where I first backpacked one drank water directly from the stream, camp fires were allowed 12 months every year. Now I do not know of a single source where you can drink water from a stream. Fires are restricted in many places. Some places require backpackers to schedule and make reservations long in advance.

I think that Scouting has turned the corner and is drifting back towards its outdoors roots. There are still many areas where I feel changes could be beneficial such as getting rid of the Varsity part. Encourage Patrols with a broad spectrum of ages. Older Scouts teaching younger Scouts the skills needed. That in and of itself gives the older Scouts a reason to be there and if they are truely helpful, friendly Scouts the experience will be worthwhile. The OA should be the Honor Campers Society of the Boy Scouts, there should be Tap-outs, bring back the warbonnet wearing Souix, and keep parts of the ceremonies Secret. Stop buying into the PC crowd. There are plenty that will never like us because we require a belief in God! All these things can be accomplished while still maintaining youth protection. All these things can be done and those same folks that do not like us because of our insistance in a belief of God will still not like us.

Of all the things that I do not like about Scouting as it is presented by BSA today I still find it a worthwhile program for my son and myself. I'm only think it could be better.

Ya'll touched on another of my pet peaves! I remember when Scout shirts did not have a collar and were green in color. Several different weight fabrics were even offered. In those days all scouts wore a neckerchief. Most of the skills we taught or learned in First Aid depended on the neckerchief. Then national for some reason changed the uniform to tan in the mid 80's. I could see the writing on the wall. Change the uniform's color and style for some reason never explained to me, or at least not sufficiently so that I'd remember it. My son's troop just elected to start wearing neckerchiefs; they decided by popular vote to allow any color.

In my opinion this is just another place where a "company" (BSA) forgets what their consumers (membership) desire. Changes to requirements for advancement, and program focus are other areas that seem to fit this mold, or have at times past.

Nice site. I'm surprised that you don't get the traffic that you think you should.

I'm the CC in my Troop. I wear as complete of a Uniform as I own. I believe that so far as is possible Adult leaders should lead by example. My son went through his AoL ceremony on a Friday and the following Tuesday hae had his first Troop meeting. Both of our uniforms had new unit number patches sewn on for that first meeting and my son's had his AoL patch. In the oter Troops that I've been a part of in the past, distant past, the only adults present for Troop meetings were SM and ASM (s). So it was not even an issue. Although I do remember that as a youth my Troops committee attended one spring camporee, camped away from the boys and were in full uniform. None of these committee members at the time had any boys in the Troop at the time.

IMHO if Troop committee members attend Troop meetings, camp, or other functions where the Troop is in uniform then they should also. Look at your youngest Scouts, the ones so willing and proud to wear the uniform. Part of our job as Adult leaders is to keep that spark alive. When these boys see that adults take wearing the uniform serious then they are more inclinded to share this view.

I'll take the bait! John in KC asked for further discussion.

For years the OA was known as the Scout's society of honor campers. now they just call it the Honor society. E. Urner Goodman intended it to be for honor campers who which also were the best Scouts. The two do seem to fit like a glove. Scouting from its roots has made Camping an important method to teach the high ideals of Scouting.

Seperating camping from the OA just does not make sense, but then neither does changing the symbol of the OA as it has been changed. Personally I preferred the Souix with war bonnet, thinking the MGM Indian was ok but to change again to the arrowhead? (there's a spin off thread idea!) Have these changes made for a stronger, more meaningful OA for the youth members we serve? I do not think so, and from what I've seen so far they have not. One of the purposes of the Order is the promotion of Scout camping. What better way than to honor those who do so well and call it what it represents. As long as the camping requirements remain for admission to the Order then I think it should be called the Society of Honor Campers.

Mark S even though you may find the fact that your Lodge's rules appear to fly in the face of those layed out by the National OA committee I doubt that there is anything you can do about it. The Council exec can and should see that these silly rules are changed to match exactly the requirements as set forth by National IMNSHO. No less; no more!

I also have opinions regarding other posts made in this topic but since I'm an adult and the OA is truely youth led what I think really has little bearing. I wonder if todays youth are gaining as much enjoyment from the OA as I did when I was a youth. IMHO that should be the only yardstick to judge current policies by. Although The Order should remain as true to its roots as possible by being the Brotherhood of Cheerful Service. To make any changes that change this they might as well change the name too.

Calico Penn sure nailed it! He submitted his reply as I was typing. Even if the reasons for these changes to policy are good the implementation is just wrong. Seems to me that Lodge needs to re-focus their energy in actually promoting camping not arm twisting.(This message has been edited by BrotherhoodWWW)

Since I'm new to my present unit and my last unit never put up a webpage I really can't answer your questions. I do however have some observations and opinions. People involved in Scouting do not seem as addicted to the web as other groups. How many forums do you know of that are dedicated to Scouting? How much activity does these (?) forums generate?

This forum in particular. Look at how many sub-forums have topics on the first page that are two years old. In most of the other narrow focus forums that I particpate in if I do not check in for as little as one day to one week the number of new topics is overwhelming. For example I've been a member of BT3Central since about the first month of it being started. A site started for a user group of Ryobi BT3K table saws. This forum has grown to the point that many topics drop off the first page for each sub-forum within two weeks and the more active sub-forums two days max even during slow times. I've a hunch that there are more registered Scouters than there are owners of this table saw. Yet there are also other wood working related forums alive and well on the internet. Many of which generate far more traffic than BT3Central.

Then look to webpages of various councils, regions, and national. How often do you find incorrect information? How often do you find conflicting information? How often do you find out of date information? If I were to answer these questions I would say often to all of the above. My council often has the wrong dates. Pages within the councils website are incomplete. Look for information about 2010 National Jamboree; I can'tseem to find any. If you can please post a link. I have seen some council websites, and sub-sites that do not appear to be nearly as bad. If your council has a good,accurate web presence then you are indeed lucky.

In both my current unit and may previous unit email was used extensively for communication and yet there are many that seem surprised when they show up at a meeting ill-prepared because no one told them. Perhaps some folks either do not check their email regularly or they only scan messages with out grasping the content. Either way there is a breakdown.

If I were to hazard a guess why this apparent lack of use of the computer based resouces occurs it would go along the lines of Scouting folks find other things to do, most likely outdoor things. Scouts, Scouters and their families lead a more active lifestyle and do not spend the time in front of a computer screen like others do. It could very well be that these folks are attracted to Scouting because of the outdoor activity based program. I could be way off but I would hope not.

So Pack378 what is your URL? Is the site easy to navigate to? Is it easy to read? Do the pages load fast even with dial-up? Is the navigatin within the site easy and simple to follow?

This subject has perplexed me ever since I became a father. Times have changed and with that so have laws. For better or worse is subject to debate. There are now laws governing the age at which children can be left home alone. Where the line is drawn between allowing children freedom and neglect is murky. My parents did not neglect us but we had plenty of freedom growing up. We walked about a half mile to grade school, over 1.5 miles to junior high and exactly 1 mile to high school. This was in a city. I now live in a fairly small town 13,000 residents at last count and If I allow my children to walk or ride their bikes to their middle school, which is about 1.5 miles away, I'm sure there will be those that think I am neglecting them. Although for most of the way there are not sidewalks or even wide sholders, but when I was in grade school I was allowed to walk along county roads with speed limits far above the 35 mph of today.

It is for these reasons that I think todays youth need Scouting perhaps more than ever.

Thanks for the replies. Maybe I'm misreading what ya'll said but you all could be making unwarrented assumptions. I did not say this Troop is anywhere close to being run the way the Program says it should. There is surely plenty of room for more training in my future but do not assume that I am un-trained. That said I do find the input valuable to not only myself but to others facing the same types of issues.

Unknown to me earlier today when I posted this topic the SPL did try to contact me. He left a message on my phone but I do not always check messages every day. LOML told me just tonight. It seems his dad had made plans for a family outing for that evening. See I know that it is the SM's job to deal with the youth. That is why I was thinking that it is also the SM's job to either talk with the lad about his responsibilities as the SPL. Neither have been in their respective leadership positions for more than a couple of months.

The prior SM did not follow the boy run part of the program, from what I have gathered. The SM is new to being a SM but I know from experience that he has great potential. Being active in the Troop for only as long as I have been is far to short to make wholesale changes to get the Troop operating they way things should, yet I am determined to do everything in my power to steer it that direction.

Beavah, you asked a great question. Personally I am not sure exactly what leadership role I want at the Troop level. My highest interest is in the OA, so to do that I must be registered in some position. I really do want to help the troop in whatever way will benefit the Troop short of being the SM. As I've suggested in other posts I've made the real world many times vastly differs from the "BSA Model" In this Troop the SM with concurance of the other registered leaders in attendence appointed me to be CC. That is fine with me if that is where they need me, at least for the present time. I also believe that the SM is the top leader in the Troop and if he asks for my help then to help is the HELPFUL thing to do. In some ways it is also the Loyal thing to do.

You see I am not the kind to rush in and step on toes even when I know that there is a better way, or in this case, a more Scouting way. I did research before letting my son cross over into this Troop and frankly here in the Wild, wild west or at least in our county there is not a bunch of choices. I'm hoping that as CC that I can ensure that the SM and ASMs get training and that the Troop has the resources it needs to support the program. At this point I am far more interested in observing and assessing the exact state of things in our Troop. Just as with auto mechanics replacing parts without knowing the actual problem is the long and expensive way to do things. I see a long and toilsome task ahead, but this is not my first ordeal. Plus I'm sure it is going to take far more effort and determination than I alone can muster to bring things around to the BSA Model of a Troop. I have seen it work.

Well that's enough info for this post.

First for the background:

My Scouting experience spans several decades with a 17 year break in the middle. I was recruited a couple of years ago when my son's pack at the time was in need of a Webelos Leader, then a year later The CubMaster said he would prefer to be a den leader so we switched. Fast forward to May 18 this year.... My oldest son earned and was awarded his Arrow of Light and I also transferred with him to his Troop. Since becomming the Webelos Den Leader I became trained and my DE recruited me to be an Assc. Chapter Advisor for the OA.

Since moving to the troop we have had one Committee meeting which I gladly attended, in fact I already sewed on the committee member patch. At that meeting I was asked to be the CC. Transfer papers had not yet been turned into the council so they would be changed to reflect my change, already. At the same meeting the SM announced that he would be absent for this weeks meeting. The meeting also planned the program for the month. I and one other parent were asked to help the Troop with this meeting and work on Orienteering. I suggested that I had an old Orienteering short course that required little more than a 100 foot rope and we dicided to use it.

The SPL was absent from both meetings. I had asked his parents to make sure he was a little early to the Scout meeting with the intention of explaining the Course to him so as to let the meeting and activity be boy run. With the SPL not present and since I did not go over with the ASPL prior to the meeting I ended up doing the course. Which, after it was over it was suggested by a PL that perhaps the course was layed out wrong. I promptly pulled the course description/ score card out of my pocket and after reading the first line said oops you are right. I had numbered it from east to west and it should have been west to east.

During the introduction I asked who had earned their Orienteering MB. The first Scout that raised his hand seemed to have some knowledge of the use of a compass. I was wrong! We buddied up the boys a young scout with an older scout since we were evenly split. I quickly observed that several of the older scouts were lost on how to use a compass, and the one with the MB was one of them.

Lesson's Learned:

It's best to have a back-up plan: I should have clued in the ASPL on the Course before the meeting.

Not safe to assume that those with the MB still retain the material.

Read and understand the instructions prior to doing something for the first time if it has been years since you last did it.

My question is should I ask the SPL's parents if they could encourage thier son to better fulfill his leadership position or should I just communicate that to the SM? (BTW the SPL's father and I years ago were partners as Reserve Police Officers. Still pretty good friends.)

You've read plenty of good advice so far. The ASM that is also very involved in the OA perhaps may be doing all he can already and to have him change to SM could possibly result a negative impact on the youth. Despite the fact that "An arrowmans first responsibilty is to his own unit." I think sitting down with all involved first seperately and then as a group would be best and it may be the time to start looking for a new SM, but perhaps recruiting another ASM to fill in for the SM during camping may also help. Thus spreading the burden more than it is now. If the program is functioning fine with the SM's absence from camping trips your Youth deserve much credit for doing a fine job of running the program.

I personally would want a SM that is more motivated than the one you have but camping is only one part of the program. I belive it is this part that sets Scouting apart from so many other youth movements.

I may be wrong but it has been my experience that out in the real world the Unit chooses its leaders and the CO signs off on their choice. I also assume that most units are just like the ones that I have been associated with over the span of many years in many different places that there is seldom a surpluss of parents willing to make a committment to serve the unit in any leadership role. If the BSA starts being anal about who is allowed to be leaders membership will drop so low as to make the "movement" not move.

Things that should not even be considered IMHO when choosing leaders of any position no matter who does the choosing would be the use of coffee, tobacco, or even adult beverages. I will admit that LDS Charted units might not agree with this and if those restrictions work for them so be it, but for the rest of the units these restrictions would exclude far too many prospects. Nothing that I have ever read in Scouting requires leaders to be Saints. Ones choice of using legal substances should not exclude them from service.

In most of my years around Scouting there have been adult leaders who used tobacco, and yet tobacco use by their youth has never been allowed. I would bet that if there were to be any studies done that scouts of tobacco using leaders were not any more likely to use the substance later when they became adults. Coffee on the other hand would perhaps show a difference. Caffeine as a substance is also in soda that youth drink too much of.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284020,00.html

So sad to read this article. My prayers go out to his family.

To answer the OP: What I think are qualities to look for in a Scoutmaster:

1 Dedication to live according to the Scout Oath and Law

2 willingness to be available for meetings and outings

3 ability to work well with youth

4 experience in Scouting

5 ability to work well with adults

6 humble!

7 willingness to learn

8 commitment to get trained or continue training

9 experience in Camping, hiking

10 stable in thier life/ job with proven leadership record

IMHO previous Scouting background should be carefully considered. How far along the trail they went. If they earned their Eagle what did they do after that. Are they OA? Scouting as a ayouth does not mean that they will make a good Scoutmaster but IMHO it will help so long as they were committed to the "program" and not just what it did for them. For example the program teaches servant leadership; those that only served until they earned their Eagle IMHO are not as dedicated to the "program" as those that stayed in until they were 18 or longer in spite of the fact of the rank they advanced to.

By the way if a candidate is a Vigil Honor member of the OA I'd give them a bonus 100 points! The likelyhood that they would make an excellent Scoutmaster is very high.

I keep reading about the Chartering Org and their responsibilties. In my expierence the vast majority of units are formed and stay active because of the youth and parents commitment to Scouting and then with that they find a CO to sponser them. For Example the Pack that I just left had to find a new chartering org. because its previous CO dissolved. I'm thinking that the BSA has not considered this. I'm sure it is not always so but am wondering how often it truely is the case. It seems to me that when an organization determines that the Scouting program fits their adgenda for their youth that it will also take youth and parental interest to make it a successful program.

My answer is no they are not necessarily good leaders but they can be trained. I notice the same things today as I did as a youth back in the 80's. Some Eagles fall under the "eagle is a mission" point of view. The acheivement of Boy Scoutings highest rank is an end for these folks. There are oters and many of these people, my self included, that believe that Scouting is as much a way of life more than the acheivement of the highest rank. I have been around plenty of adult scouters that attained Eagle when they were in scouts and many were fairly good leaders. Although there are those who state that the program has changed over the years, there is much that has not changed. The program is once again placing more focus on basic scout skills. As John-in-KC points out the Scout Law, Oath, Motto, and slogan as well as the admonition have not changed. One possible way to know which type a prospective leader will be is ask them the simple question; what did you do for scouting after you attained Eagle. Eagle Scouts that were dedicated to the program and felt compelled to pass on their knowledge after attaining Eagle will likely be jewels of leaders.

Thanks John-in-KC for the history lesson. I remember these skill awards well. I have been saying for years that the Scouting program seemed to take a shift in emphasis in the 70's away from the outdoor exp. It is good to see that it has shifted back making the outdoors an important part of the program.

As a Scout I had no love of skill awards. I earned enough to advance to Star. I still have them in the bottom of my scouting stuff drawer.

When my oldest son started cub scouts I was amazed of all the changes in the program. I had been away from Scouting for 18 years. What were once skill awards at the Boy Scout level were recycled to a cub award. Some Packs now use segments for each activity that they participate in. When I was a Scout it was a Boy Scout thing but either only in some councils or it was dropped while my family moved and I was in transition between troops and states.

When I was a young Scout (rank) the Council that we were in had their Ordeal directly after the tap out at the spring camporee. Back then the OA had plenty of respect of all the scouts. Even though each troop lost one or several of their best scouts when they were need for the camporee competitions it allowed other scouts to step up to fill their shoes inleadership positions for the weekend.

I was much older and in a different Council when I went through my Ordeal. It was done as it is now in most Lodges on a seperate weekend.

In my opinion summer camp is almost the perfect setting for a tap out and Ordeal. There should not be a conflict with each candidates duty to unit as there would be at a camporee setting, although there could still possibly be a conflict. I do however have problems with the canidates doing their service in view of other campers. If you are a fellow arrowman then a reading the "Guide for Ordeals" will shed some light on this position. For those reading non-members suffice it to say that IMHO my reading of the guide discourages this. Another reason many Lodges do not consider this is that many lodges use the Ordeal to perform before and after work on the camp. Even though this is commom practise I'm not sure that it is the best use of the Ordeal resource. I fail to see how it is a lasting, meaningful project.

Vicki, I wonder about your Lodges practise at camp prior to the actual Ordeal. It seems against one of the principles.

What I would like to see the OA do at camps is have an OA campfire night. The camp staff should be hired by giving preference to arrowmen. Just by being exceptional Scouts while at camp the OA can accomplish its purpose. The promotion of Scout camping, service to others, and brotherhood. Perhaps having an evening crackerbarrel/ lodge meeting would help the brotherhood purpose.

Howdy Ya'll. I'm currently a committee chairman and OA chapter adviser in the Grand Columbia Council. (WA) I've been in Scouting for a long time as both a youth and now as an adult leader. One of my other hobbies is spending time on internet forums.

You can read my latest blog http://www.blackwalnutjigs.com/blog.asp