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Eagle's Soar!

WE1-614-08

Just back from first weekend; still forming my ticket. The Eagle patrol is norming right along!

Shortridge, there are some advisor positions that are expressly detailed in the OA literature. Lodge Adviser, Lodge Staff Adviser, Chapter Adviser, and Associate Advisors. There are position patches available for Lodge Advisor, Chapter Advisor, Associate Lodge Adviser, and Associate Chapter Advisor. These are ones that I know for certian about. There may also be one for staff advisor but I'm not sure. Those are the only ones I've seen for advisors at the Lodge or Chapter level. There are also ones for Section, and I think region and National but I'm not certain. In my Lodge all adults are not advisers. They do not attend LEC meetings, although they would be welcome.

On my district shirt I have Associate Chapter Adviser position patch which will likely be replaced soon to just Chapter Advisor due to some restructering within our Lodge.

Bob White is on the trail of the truth of what BSA says about the ideal structure of Troop committees. However, I think his simple explaination is missing some of the trail markers. BSA says thay want to add many more adult leaders. BSA provides a training module for selecting quality leaders that is targeted to Unit committees. The Unit is responsible to select the leaders and the CO is responsible to APPROVE those selected leaders. So in different words the CO IH and COR have ultimate authority to decide what adults serve in leadership roles within the unit but often as not are not really involved in the selection process.

If I was in need of another uniform for myself I would purchase the new model. However if I were just needing socks and the old style were at a 10% discount I'd likely buy old.

If my son, who is still growing, needed or possibly even when he needs a new one I would buy a new unless I culd get the old for 25% off. Only after checking my son's troop's uniform bank and the local thrift stores. Since I just bought him a new shirt last Christmas I'm hoping I will not have to get him another for at least a year.

It does matter. I feel the need to restate what i have written here.

It is my opinion as a currently serving OA Adviser that the current HB says that it is appropriate for an Arrowman to wear his sash to a court of honor. The sentence in the manual lists three seperate and independent times when an Arrowman can wear his sash: at OA Functions AND at special Scouting events And when an Arrowman is giving special service while needing to be identified as an Arrowman. It is my opinion that that is precisely how it is written. To look to a previous version of the OA HB for clearification is also reasonable to establish the intent of the rule. If National OA committee wished to change the rule, which IMHO would be a significant event, I believe they would also ensure that future publications were worded in a way that made it very clear.

"But if misinformation is posted on an internet chat forum don't be surprised if someone posts a correction."

FScouter what exactly do you mean by that? Are you as a Mod taking a side and which side is that?

Because of the conjunction AND plus the phrase "such as courts of honor" which says that a court of honor is a special function. Do we wear the sash at OA functions because of the "need to be identified for rendering special services"? The final sentence in the quote explains when it is to be worn to a troop meeting, as is an OA election during a meeting. In the newer wording the sentence may seem to say that the arrowman must be rendering special service at a special Scouting activity to wear the sash, however the clause starting with when is not subordinate to the subject "Scouting activties" it is in addition to. If it was subordiane to then the comma would(should) not be used. English 101 folks! So it is either poorly written, improperly punctuated, or ambiguious. Whichever it may be is the question. Am I the only one that caught this?

Bob White, perhaps a careful rereading of what I posted will help. I am qouting two books the earliest being a 1977 copyright. le'see 2008-1977 does not equal 43 years! Never has never will.

If I had evidence that the current HB is incorrect then this discussion would be over. Not only do I not have any evidence I also do not know how may times the HB was revised. I was also not involved for a number of years and have no access to records of proceeding of the OA National Committee. I do know by experience that most manuals have omissions, errors and typo's that are discovered after press time and get fixed.

I do not have any difficulty reading what is currently published. I do believe that we, meaning Arrowmen took, and if we are currently active often take an Obligation a part of which is to uphold the traditions of the OA. To me the wearing of the sash is a tradition.

The two references mean vastly different things. To me that is a significant change hence my wonderment.

BTW Bob White your current position in the OA is what exactly and what honor do you hold? Are you an active dues paying member of your local Lodge? We all assume that you are not a youth and I am not a youth so what we really think does not really matter. Since I am currently an Adviser then it is prudent for me to know the correct policies and proceedures so as to be able to give the right answer when asked. RTM is not a very good answer to any question if one is living by the Oath and Law.

Bob White wrote "Didn't jet526 give the "official word from national" when he quoted from the current offical OA Handbook and not from a handboook that was 43 years old?"

BW is it beyond your ability to not ever wonder if perhaps there was a mistake in printing and editing. The OA releases periodic updates to correct and clearify actual policies and proceedures. I find it somewhat suspect that in all of the 50 pages that were edited out between the two different editions of the OA Handbook that I own that all of it was due to changes in policy. The first purpose of the OA is to "Honor those Scouts that best exlemplify the Oath and Law in their daily lives."

It seems to me that a court of honor is about the individual honors, acheivements, and advancement of each individual Scout in the unit. Court's of Honor are often attended by extended family members that may not be familiar with the program and insignia of Scouting. For Arrowmen to be wearing their OA sash makes the statement, IMHO, that there is something special about these Scouts. It should be a personal or unit choice. If it is not, which by the way is possible, there is likely a reason for the change. I for one would like to know what that or those reasons are and why.

Jet526 did in fact accurately quote what is in the current OA Handbook.

In the 1977 copyright OA Handbook it says: "The Arrow sash is worn at Order of the Arrow functions ans special Scout functions such as courts of honor. It is not to be worn at troop meetings. This is to be done only when members need to be identified for rendering special services."

I have enquired to Naional to see if this was a simple omission in the current HB or an actual policy change. The earlier HB had 50 more pages than the current version. Some things had to be edited out.

GW I would submit that both the words and the meaning has changed if the new passage is policy.

If and when I get a response from National I will share that here.

"Why would anyone wear an OA sash to a non-OA event? I don't wear my Boy Scout uniform to non-Scouting events."

Why do some scouters wear all of the knots that they have earned? Personal preference! The OA Sash is a symbol of the honor that ws bestowed upon a Scout by his fellow scouts why should he not wear it with pride. Since my copy of the current OA Handbook is at home and not available I can not honestly comment further. Perhaps they have once again changed the language to what was quoted by jet.

Hat's off to those youth and young adults that serve on summer camp staff! With many other higher paying job options for seasonal work it is surprising that camps still function. Staffers show a dedication to ideals and a passion for the program that is surely needed. I say this as having once served as a youth. Hindsight is 20/20 and I wish I would have spent more than just one summer at camp.

Only one sash may be worn at any time. Contrary to what has been posted the OA Sash may be worn at a Court of Honor, although I am unable to find the source in the online guide. The OA sash may be worn for special events and ceremonies. The event does not have to be an OA event. What is forbidden is wearing the sash as part of the normal meeting uniform. I believe that this is detailed in the OA handbook and also possibly in the Guide for Officers and Advisors.

I distinctly remember having my first card cut. I also remember having to relearn it at least a second time. My SM in the late 70's and early 80's went along with the process. He was a 30 something Eagle Scout that came from Texarkana Texas. It was also the accepted practise in the Conquistador Council in the mid 70's. It's the accepted practise in my present Council.

Is it really part of the program as BSA proscibes it? Who exactly cares! If it is not, it is at least one way that units have a consequence for unsafe knife handling. Periodic retraining of safety topics is always a good idea.

"Its not just unit leaders who need to learn the program, nor is it an excuse to put all the blame on trainers. Trainers cannot stop you from reading a handbook. Each person needs to take responsibility for their own capabilities and development" Bob White

Why should they Bob? You posted in your quiz who is responsible to train a units leaders. You have stated folks should follow BSA guidelines and seek answers from BSA literature to truely understand the program and yet you are advocating them not following it?

One I heard at a training seminar is that "even Boy Scouts use the cub scout sign when trying to get the group quiet!"

Yessir when Councils establish rules that are stricter than those prescribed from BSA it leads to confusion. From my perspective BSA = Council, even though in fact Councils are given latitude on some matters.

Wow, it took me a long time to type this one. I was referencing the OP!

(This message has been edited by brotherhoodwww)

"The stuff in BSA resources is the distilled wisdom of hundreds of units from all over the country. Certainly wisdom offered by individual posters on an internet forum has some value. What's not clear at all is why the collective wisdom provided by BSA is so frequently dismissed."

Interesting point coming from a moderator. One reason perhaps is in some cases i.e. actual unit relationship with their chartering org, BSA has a head-in-the-sand idea. The BSA ideal relationship is great but in reality it is not always the case. Another point that leads folks away is when some professionsal Scouters are pinned down about the literature they often will say that BSA literature is a Guide rather than "hard and fast rules!"

My personal view is that internet forums are a very valuable resource otherwise I would not read, post and reply to them. Often times folks are looking for more than just a quote of what BSA says. Sometimes folks want options that are more htan what BSA literature details. For myself I feel welcome to actually talk to my DE and our Council SE. It is a wonderful thing to actually discuss the program and its implementation with those that are paid to keep it alive. The ones I've talked to have always responded with helpfulness and kindness, never with simply a direct quote from a manual.

Good point about the unit not having any input into if an arrowman completes Brotherhood.

A correction is due. The Lodge Flap is the only article that can not be worn by arrowmen that are not dues paying members in good standing with their Lodge. The Arrowman may still wear the Universal Arrow Ribbon at all times and the Sash when appropriate. Both are symbols of the honor that has been bestowed on the Scout(er)to which he has underwent an Ordeal to affirm and taken an Obligation to .....

In the OA the first duty of an Arrowman is to his Unit and there are to be no expectation of service at the Lodge and Chapter level.

I am truely sorry you took my tounge-in-cheek poor attempt at humor as a personal insult; it surely was not meant as one.

BW accurately quoted the Fieldbook for Unit service. The job of the district/ council is to train volunteers. However it also states that this proceedure is for the removal due to reasons other than certian "bad acts" We as posters can only guess at the reasons why the OP wants to remove his Troop's SM. Regardless of the reasons an ASM should contact his UC, COR and CO IH!

Two of those three have final authority of who serves in the Unit!

BW we may just have to agree to disagree about wheather you are right or wrong. I belive that in some units the fact remains that the ASM does have an impact in who is chosen as SM. It may or may not be a direct relationship but to discount the possibility because of your narrowly held ideals of any organizational structure within the BSA is a short sighted, head in the sand position IMHO! After all the BSA establishes "guidelines" for Chartering partners not a "this is the only way to do things" manual.

Bob White, funny little critter with colorful feathers but a brain the size of a large pea seed, runs in groups when it would likely be better served by taking flight; sure hope I'm not in that Patrol in my WB course in two weeks!

I digress! BW where you are WRONG, YUP WRONG, /yelling is that you assume that the unit that the OP is in fits the BSA model in terms of structure! Not all units operate as by the book as you assume. Believe it or not there are units where the SM has far more authority than the CC. Sometimes this is due to not enough proper training, sometimes it is due to other factors. Just as there is more than one way in which Troops are structured there can be more than one way to handle such disputes. In some Troops the ASM('s) have lots of input into who is chosen as the SM. Many CO's leave the day to day and year to year running of the Troop including the retention of Adult leaders in the hands of those currently serving in that unit providing little more than a place and a rubber stamp of a name for approval.

BW you say that this should be handled at the unit level and in this you are CORRECT however in the current training guide for Unit Commissoneers there is a page or so devoted to helping to remove volunteers (the actual page numbers and number of pages escapes me at the moment but they are there. Perhaps I'll add a quick post later with a better citation.) which leads me to believe that one of my duties as a UC is to assist units with this if requested, under the direction of the DC and/or DE! There are other reasons that I can think of that an ASM should contact his UC, DC, or DE if he feels that his Troop's SM needs replacing. Possibly the ASM is the wrong person for the Troop he is involved with and a district Scouter may know of a unit in need and more to his liking that might be suggested.

A good place to start is your Unit Commissioner and COR, CO IH. Depending on that outcome a visit to the DC and DE. If that fails a visit to the SE for your council. Be forewarned that any of the above may burn bridges for you. Depending on the reasons and your relationship with the SM and your position in the Troop a friendly cup of coffee with the SM where you respectfully air your concerns may also get your desired effect.

Glad ya asked jblake47. Currently the troop camps with the Troop method and each meal is assigned to just one patrol. Now each Patrol will be responsible for the menu planning and cooking for each of their meals. The youth leadership has expressed their wishes to work as Patrols each meal rather than only one meal a day rotating. The point that really changed the SM's mind about this was when i explained how under the current system each Scout was missing at least 2/3 of his Scouting experience.

Hot dogs and top ramen have been a cop out menu for nearly evey campout. This is where the youth need guidance in nutrition and menu planning. The PLC agrees with us adults about this and are willing to help achive a better menu. Although the dutch oven idea is one of the SM I believe that it is another example of defining the boundries that the youth can operate in. Just as the requirement of a Tote-n-chip for knife handling. Even in a boy led troop there are always going to be some things beyond the youth's decision making. I for one am not a fan of dutch oven cooking and never have been but my responsibility is to support the SM and make sure the committee provides what is necessary for the program to function.

The boys do get to make most of the decisions as it now stands. By making these changes we are enabling the boys to make even more even though there are limits.

Thought I'd give an update. While we were at Summer camp last week the current SM decided that he wished to remain in that position for the time being. This should be good for the boys of the Troop.

I was also able to further convince him to make more changes in the way we provide the program to the youth. Moving to meaningful Patrol Method. We are going to require the youth to stop using hot dogs and top ramen as a meal while camping. SM's other new requirement will be that on each weekend outing each Patrol will have to cook one dinner and one breakfast (for a 2 night outing only) in a dutch oven unless they are backpacking.

Onward I march working with the SM to bring the Scouting program to the youth. With him as SM, myself as CC and a collection of great ASM's I'll be able to also serve others as a Unit Comm. and OA Ass. Chapter Adv.

Regardless of what the agreement is or is not there are CP's that wish to support Scouting only so far as to provide a meeting place. I agree this in not ideal but it is what it is. When my former pack lost our CO we the leaders found another to continue the unit. The DE was all for it as it reflects poorly on him to lose units. We found a CO that only wanted to provide meeting space. They believe that Scouting has value and just offering facilities to the unit helps Scouting.

Councils and their districts are well aware of scant participation on the part of the CO's. The COR's should be staffing the district committee and yet often they (the DE's) have to recruit adult volunteers from the program side (parents) to staff key positions. I think there are many factors causing this beyond what has already been mentioned. BSA itself is must share some of the blame IMHO. The turnover of the professional staff does not help.

IMHO John-in-KC recapped it spot on!

At our last Troop Committee meeting it was rumored that our current SM wished to step down. I as CC put him on the spot and asked him to confirm this and he did saying that he was hoping to be able to step down by Sept. 1. We have a paper CO with a COR that also seems to be in name only, although I feel this could be as much my fault as his since communication is a two way street.

As I'm researching who would be a good fit as a new SM several other adult leaders tell me that I should be the first choice. Right now I am dual registered as a CC and a UC; I also am an OA Ass. Chapter Advisor. I'm torn as to what is really best for the youth. If I were to accept the SM position I would likely step down as a UC. As a UC I could potentially help to make 3 units other than my own more successful subject to the wishes of those units. I belive that in a Troop the CC is almost as important as the SM, as the two should work as a team.

One of the ASM, a fellow committee member (he's also our ass. district comish.) and myself are signed up for WB this August/ September. If I change positions I should do so before I answer the 20 questions. I'm thinking that my ticket will be mostly position specific.

As the CC I've been on at least half of the outings our Troop has been on including summer camp last year. This Saturday we are leaving for summer camp again. The current SM and myself have worked to change the troop in the past year from adult led to youth led, which was one of my main concerns when I accepted the CC position. We still have a way to go in this but I think that is true in nearly every unit.

Sometime this week I will be contacting our COR and informing him and seeking his imput.