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Bob White, how about staying with the OP rather than personal snide attacks aimed at the families involed with my unit. Better yet why don't you just stop posting all together! It's becoming clear that you do not know how to play well with others in the spirt of helping.

$1300.00 gross nets the Troop $416.00. Summer camp costs at least $205.00 but depending on where the boys choose to go this year could cost as much as $250.00. Our dues @ $160.00 does not cover any expenses for summer camp other than Troop provided campsite foods; hot dogs, pass around fudge, marshmellows, other snacks. Of the popcorn fundraising our youth benefit 75% directly for their summer cmap fee. $416.00 - $180.00 = $236.00 x .75 = $177.00 towards summer camp. We do not expect any further contributions even though each scouts camp fund is less than the actual cost of summer camp for those selling to aour target goal free ride level. So however you do the math the $1300 gross level is a win for the scout families.

We based our annual budget on actual prior expenses incurred for running the program the boys have done. We gave careful consideration of alternate activities that Scouting competes with and even at $160 per year Scouting in our Troop is a bargain. It works out to $3.20 per week with 50 meetings a year. The Councils popcorn fundraiser is something that we as a committee feel rather strongly about supporting. Local Scouting wins big.

So you see BW it appears that perhaps you should not be so quick to judge our funding plan as you do not seem to be aware of all the thoughts behind it. Resulting to personal attacks because of your ignorance shows your personality. How you can live like this and remain in Scouting is simply amazing! Surly you've missed the Friendly, Helpful, Courteous, and Kind parts of the Scout Law. Why you continue to post on this forum when you so often are disdainful of others and their ideas and perspective has me wondering. Now go back to your covey and peck at the ground; I'd hate to see a raptor have ya for lunch!

$160.00 annually, waived if a Scout sells $1300. gross in popcorn fundraiser. Waived also either partially or totally due to financial need on a case by case basis. Boy's Life is an extra $10.00/ year.

This pays their registration, short term camp fees and advancement. It does not pay food costs or transportation to camps or events.

We do 2 fundraisers annually: Popcorn and a weekedn giving away free coffee for dontaions at a state Rest Area. This is divided 75/25 to summer camp fund and troop equipment fund.

This is our first year of collecting this and so far we've only lost 1 youth through a transfer to a different Troop as a result. We are hoping that this will increase particpation at all levels. We hope this will decrease those that never spend any time with our fundraisers but always seem to want to go on the fun stuff. I'll let ya'll know if it is successful.

So you'd like to be a SM? Yet in the other topic you started you were asked several times to end the guessing game and failed to respond. Follow through is an important skill that a SM needs to have. How is your working relationship with all the other Adult leaders in your son's unit? How's your relationship with the youth in his unit?

As others have posted the best Scoutmasters are sometimes those without sons in the program. A SM committment should be a 5+ year committment IMHO. Stable adult leadership helps the troop's program.

Ask him out for a cup of coffee or even something stronger if that's what ya'll drink. It is in the best interest for you to be able to work with your CC. Find out from him directly if he is just passing on the CO's wishes. Has he attended training? If not encourage him to do so.

If the friendly route does not work take the matter to your COR and/or IH. In the ideal world the SM and CC should be a good team with shared vision and goals for the Troop.

When it comes to the staves sold at camps and Scout shops charcter is what you do to the stave to personalize it after purchase.

to wit

For car camping my troop uses cast iron griddles that fit on our two burner coleman stoves. For backpacking I have mostly avoided having to use a fry pan. If you can have cooking fires where you go meals made in foil are less work and less cleanup. Dried foods that just have to be re-hydrated and warmed can be used rather than fresh meats that have to be fried. Most foods can be cooked with alternate methods so as to not need a fry pan.

All that said for my personal camping I buy a 10"-12" non-stick skillet at a discount store and just replace it every few years. If I get 20 nights of camping out of it I'm happy. They usually can be had for

GW what browser do you use? I am forced to use IE beecause I can not see many of the input buttons with Firefox.

When I was very young my dad was a SM of a troop in Klamath Falls OR that was planning a 50 miler. All the boys in his Troop made Alaskan Pack Boards. I think kids were a bunch tougher back then!

I as a youth used a #10 coffee can as my main cook pot for camping. I've made my own nylon ditty bags and stuff sacks for years. I'm currently making ditty bags for my Troop's patrol cook kits. I'm not sure if it is really cost effective to make the cook kit bag but for smaller bags and stuff sacks a yard of fabric goes a long way. Add a short piece of nylon cord with the core removed and you can save a pile of money while keeping your backpack organized.

However it is really a labor of love because if your rime is really short or worth a bunch it may be cheaper to just buy ready made, but what fun is that?

I have read somewhere in BSA literature in just this past month that says that WB attendees may wear the patrol patch on the uniform, right sleeve position 2 but only during the WB course. .......if only I can recall where that was....... At WB I was able to purchase a supersized patrol emblem that I'll likely someday sew onto a backpack or maybe just frame it and hang it in my woodshop; now there's an idea!

Perhaps it is because of the Youth protection training that states that 18 yo is the line between youth and adult. Youth protection rules crosses all programs equally. The application of this in the field is what makes for differing arrangements. The rule that folks are trying to enforce is that youth below the age of 18 must have seperate accomodations than those over 18. At least that is my understanding of all this.

In the parent topic Scouter760 discusses the mis-application of boards of review with his unit sitting a youth member. Beavah asks what his CO relationship is like. Not surprising it is one where the CO is not participatory. It seems to me that the farther folks get from the BSA model of an active participating CO the more likely they also do not follow the program as presented by BSA. At least in the Units that I'm familiar with in my district this seems to be the case.

Contrast this with the ideal of a CO that has a dedicated COR who is both trained and active. I could only guess that even though the makeup of the committee might be the same, there might be a different vision and focus. What are your thoughts?

acco40 writes: "The more indepth answer, as many have stated, is that Scouts should not be buying merit badge, rank, service star, etc. items. These should be done by your unit."

I do not agree with this statement! A Scout is Trustworthy. The Scouting program is designed to enable its participants to become self sufficient. Youth members that have more than one uniform, as many in the higher ranks may if they are active should not depend on adults to do thier shopping. The earned badge should be provided by the unit but any copies for other uniforms or any other reason a Scout should be able to buy himself. My advice is a visit to his loacal Scout Shop with his cards and cash in hand. If his earning is legit then I'll bet he walks out with the patches.

Bob White wrote: "It really funny how quickly some folks lapse into blaming others instead before first looking at themselves. Why would anyone expect parents to understand the program before they join unless someone in the program first take the time to explian it to them? That's the Scoutmasters job."

What? Where in BSA literature does it say this is the Job of the SM? http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/orientation%20for%20new%20boy%20scout%20parents.aspx The module for teaching New Parent Orientation places this responsibility on several adults in the troop. It mentions that the SM should be a part of this but not the sole presenter. Who is playing the blame game BW? I see most in this topic describing what they have seen in their local district/ council. Lots of speculation on the root causes. I even went so far as to detail how I am going to attempt to change the views of the adults involved with my son's Troop. I think that is really where this fight must be fought. Those of us with the skills and the ability to teach them need to find ways to do that. Afixing blame for others lack of skills is pointless. Understanding the factors contributing to the lack of skills, granted you even named on yourself, is of great importance to solving the problem. Adults do need to read the manuals. Adults do need to have the desire to learn and take the time to learn, yet ignorance is bliss and if folks do not know they will likely not care.

I'd sure like more information about this rumor. There is nothing on the National OA sote that I can find that even hints at this. FWIW I think this would be a major mistake. The OA Stragetic plan in the short term has in part a goal of retaining and getting inactive arrowmen active. Making sweeping changes is not really the best way to do this IMHO. The OA stragetic plan already details leadership training as a main focus of the Order. I'm skeptical that this is what the youth of today really want. I'm thinking that they want honor, service, and brotherhood.

If they did away with indian based lodge names they might just as well change the name of our order to Order of the Youth Volunteer!

I seem to recall that there is a phrase in the Obligation that is "I will always and faithfully observe and preserve the traditions of the OA." In my view the lodge names is a tradition. In my view the use of american indian themes is a tradition. In my view camping traditon promotion is a tradition. To steer away from any in my opinion is a breach of the Obligation!(This message has been edited by brotherhoodwww)

If you have enough time before your Wood Badge experience I suggest you review the different Scouting programs. Their methods and program.

Above all go to WB with an open mind and a quest for learning. You should already be trained in your current Scouting position. Go for the learning but enjoy the fun. Make new friends! If your patrol is any thing like mine you will grow very close to your patrol mates.

Here is what I've seen in my local area. Scouters that moved up to Boy Scouts with their boys from Cub Scouts without any idea of the changes in the program. These folks seem to think that the Advancement method is THE method of Scouting. They look for results in rank advancement rather than the knowledge or retention of skills needed to advance. They rarely ever attend training and when they do they only seem to listen to the parts that agree with their way of doing things. They look at summer camp and the advancement awards that might be earned rather than the experience gained by the youth. They are involved in Scouting for the purpose of what their boy will get out of it rather than all the boys in the Troop.

Here is what I am doing to change this: I am pointing out requirements that I feel are not being handled correctly and offering program corrections to ensure that they are adhered to in the future. I am encouraging other adults to take more training at every opportunity. I am planning to have an adult weekend outing where myself and another trained leader teach the other adults the needed skills that their youth should learn while advancing to First Class. I am taking more training when the opportunity is offered. I do what I can knowing that I am the only person that I am in control over. Others have to make their own choices on wheather they will follow. Over time those that will not follow will be left behind. Embrace Change!

Cub Scout courses in 2005.

Boy Scout courses in 2007.

NLS in 1981.

Problem with this topic as you've presented it Bob is that some have done exactly as you have suggested and actually read the material presented inthe specific program handbooks. As a youth I read as many different copies of both the Scout Handbook, starting with the 1945 printing forward and the Scoutmaster HB in addition the Cornerstone guide and the Leadership Corps pamplet. Not to mention years of Boy's life and of course Boy's life reprints. That learning habit has continued to this day, except for the intermittent years that I was away from Scouting. The foundation of Scouting has not changed in this time. The Scout Oath and Law. Although the ideals are only one of the methods the bulk of the BSA programs would be nearly pointless without it.

Here are my thoughts. It seems you were granted what is called in my state a deferral. In my opinion and likely also many others that is equal as a matter of fact as an admission of guilt and conviction. You made a poor choice with your actions, actually several poor choices. You are and will have to live with the consequence now and in the future. I'm all for forgiveness and I hope you are truely sorry for your poor choices. The Scout Oath and Law is a code of conduct and a way of life that Scouts are asked to do their best to live in accordance to. For whatever reason you made choices to not do so. Do you really think you deserve to be honored by Scoutings highest Rank award? The youth of Scouting hold Eagle Scouts in high regard. They assume that Eagles have embraced the Oath and Law in their daiily lives.

Taking a deferral, although might make sense is not the same in my book as doing the right thing. I'm pretty sure it may have been what is best for you but it is not what is best for those that might look up to you as an ideal. You see if you were awarded the rank of Eagle younger scouts, and some adults would naturally look up to you. IMHO the right thing for you to have done was stand up and say "I AM GUILTY! I HAVE NO EXCUSE! I KNEW WHAT I DID WAS WRONG; PLEASE SHOW ME MERCY EVEN THOUGH I AM NOT DESERVING!" My appologies if that is what you said but it appears that is not based upon my reading of your posting here. I believe you will bring more honor to the program that you espouse love for by being a Life for life! You can then tell your story with your head held high. You took the moral high ground and said "because of my errors I was not worthy."

Good luck, do the right thing as I hope and pray the EBOR will.

Jblake writes " Maybe some discussions with the SM rather than bypassing him with discussions with the ASM's would be a more effective and honest approach to the issue."

Stosh this seems rather pointed and assumptive on your part, if not an out right challenge of my character! I did in fact discuss this plan with the SM. Not all members are present at all meetings or planning sessions. Communication with the other adults just happens to be one of my strong abilities. It seems to me that the adults in my unit need to be united in our support of the program. Making sure everyone is on the same page seems part of this. When we have a situation where there is disagreement I believe that it is best to work to resolve the disagreement.

Why do I even bother to waste my time with this forum!

Jblake perhaps next time you can leave the personal attacks and assumptions out of your answer. The point I see you trying to make is that boy run = boy led. I see the two as very different things as does Bob White. It is up to the adult leaders to set boundries as to what is the program. The SM is responsible to implement the program, the youth lead the program. The youth should have abundant input into the particulars of the program such as where to go camping and what activities each patrol does.

Bob White you would do well to also stop the assumptions. There are very few in my district that have been to as much training as myself. I have a very firm grasp of what my duties are as the CC and what the SM's duties are. Our unit does not fit the "ideal model" of BSA Troop origanzationl charts and I am not the one at fault! I'm the one most trying to steer our unit in that direction. Once I get beyond your condecention I really do not see what you have added to be helpful to my situation.

John thanks so much for the valuable feedback! Our COR is not involved much to my dislike. I wish our CO would take a serious interest in their troop but they have yet to do so. In our area of the district two of the commissioner staff are directly involved in my unit and we are one of the units without a UC. I wish I had one to fall back on.

Beavah, thanks to you also for the valuable feedback! Yes I think the SM should have steered the boys away from a movie night in leu of a regular meeting. Once in a while I think it is a great idea. Our Scouts lack basic Scout skills. i.e. knots, fire building, orienteering, map reading. They also are rather poor when it comes to the Uniform method. In the past year most young boys have not had the opportunity to advance T-2-1. Camp menu planning needs work. Duty rosters are not used. Our QM does the shopping for the whole troop for outings. On outings we switch to Troop method. Attendence to weekend outings is poor IMHO.

I agree that most times it is best to allow youth to fail if that is the plan they set up. I do not agree to my son being involved in a troop that right out of the gate loses 25% of the potential of a Scouting program. I've scheduled a Parents meeting and am not comfortable with asking other parents to jump on board and support their youth involvement in the troop. I think the PLC with the advice of the SM and ASM's are able to come up witha better schedule than a movie meeting once each month. Watching movies just does not seem to be a Scout Skill, although it is a great past time and there are some movies that would have value.

A few more random thoughts: Our latest Eagle Scout has never been on a back packing trip, he has hiked in a mile or so but I don't think of that as back packing and neither does he. A life scout PL had to ask "what's a ground cloth?" when we discussed what he needed to bring to his Ordeal. I think there is far more scouting that these boys need before they consider watching movies.

Perhaps I should have mentioned all this in the OP so folks had a bit of background. BTW the training the SM really needs is IOLS. He is real poor when it comes to Scout Skills.

A year ago our troop switched from adult led and run to youth led. The SM either lacks training or does not by into the "Program" the way myself and some of the ASM's think he should. recently the PLC planned our schedule for the upcomming year. Included was a movie night in place of a regular meeting once monthly. The SM agreed to this. When the youth leaders were asked if they had submitted their plan to the committee prior to releasing the details they not only said no but also said that they did not need to do that.

It seems to me as CC that these youth need a fair bit more guiding and training. It seems that the SM needs more training and guidence.

I'm looking for advice on how to best deal with this to bring things back on track.

".....I will seek to preserve a cheerful spirit even in the midst of irksome tasks and weighty responsibilities......" All arrowmen take upon themselves a solemn Obligation that enhances the meaning of the Scout Oath and Law. Their primary purpose in doing so is to give service to their unit.

GaHillBilly do you know that the ASM "stayed with his son" or did he merely remain at the ordeal as many Scouters do. The other unit's choices for candidates is beyond your control so why should you or your son be bothered by that. That is just one sterling example why I love the OA; members do not choose who becomes members. "You were elected by those that have lived closest to you, and I congradulate you upon your election!" words of the mighty cheif excerpted from a call out ceremony that the Lodge of my youth used. So true are these words!

Others have already mentioned the tremendous opportunities available only to Arrowmen. High Adventure for a very modest price, Sections even have funds available for paying for needy arrowmen to attend!

I was elected as a youth. I attained Brotherhood as a youth. I served my unit, Lodge and Chapter as a youth. If it were not for the OA and my involvement it is doubtful that I would have seeked out a Troop during my college years that I served as an ASM. Currently my oldest son is not even elegile for the OA and yet my main focus and purpose in Scouting is the OA. I am a currently serving Chapter Adviser. I'm attending Wood Badge and I am writing my ticket to do what I can to strengthen the OA.

A small picture of the thngs the OA does that do not get noticed by those scouts and scouters not involved. In my Lodge we provide needed service to prepare our council camps each early summer. This year we are also contributing money to the electrical lighting renovation of a dining hall used mainly for Cub Resident camp.

I attended NLS at Scouter Mtn. Portland Or in 1981 as a youth. It was one of the best experiences I've ever had in Scouts. I believe thay have since changed the course since then but I've heard good things about the current course. If for no other reason the fellowship with your brothers should make it worthwhile.

I'd say go ahead and wear it as long as his lodge does not have any rules against him wearing it. Some lodges have restricted patches for awards. My lodge gives a special flap for our Lodge Service award that can only be worn by those that have received the award. Special run event patches are usually only sold to those attending prior to the event and sometimes also for a specified legnth of time after the event. Many are meant for trading and some are meant to be used as a fund raiser.

Bottom line is to check with a lodge officier or adviser to see if there are any restrictions.

Bob White, there is such a thing as the element of surprise! I'll stand up and say that thanks to you and all of the other posters that were discussing the game my Wood Badge experience was lessened! The game, and the lessons that were the reason for its use in the course could have been much better if I had not known what I knew.

Bob I see a huge difference between discussing the principles being presented and format in which they are taught. I did not toss my $200 down just to gain knowledge. If you feel so strongly perhaps you could just write a book detailing all the knowlede shared in the course! Think of all the volunteer hours that course staffers could place actually directly serving youth rather than staff a course. Participants could spend at least half the course fee on your book. Heck you'd be a hero.

Alas it is not simply the knowledege gained but the experience of gaining and application of that knowledge that makes Wood Badge worthwhile! To publicize the process of the course IMHO does a dis-service to future and current course participants.