Sidney Porter

You will also need OLSWL training as far as #2 Webelos overnight vs weekend overnight appears to have to do with the level of adult supervision http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx

I would probably go with 3. As you said 12 is a lot. Personally I like 8 to 10, below 6 has other issues if you have attendance issues. But here is the decision, how do you split up the previous 12? Part of the decision depends on how you recruit, are the kids from the same school, church, neighborhood? Do you keep the kids that know each other together or do you split them up. Are you all planning on meeting the same day? If not you may split based upon expected meeting times. Assuming you are going to be a den leader. I would pick with the CM two of the parents from last year that you thing should be den leaders. They understand the program and can step in with little learning curve. What i would not due is create 2 12 scout dens one made up of the experienced ones and one for all the newbies. It is a different conversation if the new ones are from a pack that has folded but Istill think I would mix them up. As far as the program the CM should be giving direction on how much he wants the dens to stay in synch. Do other ranks have this situation and the CM has an existing plan? I was in a mega pack of 170+ we had 46 tigers, spread across 6 dens. The CM treated the independently he made sure we would meeting and progressing towards rank but he never said you need to go this like the other den. The den leaders would share info (usually around the go see it) but the dens were really allowed to direct their own dens asl if there was only one den of each rank.

It is really easy to turn the program in school, don't make that mistake. Get them outside. They spend alol day in a classroom. If you can't get them outside make sure your inside meeting space will allow some running around. We made the mistake of having our first 2 tiger meetings at a meeting room in the public library. After that we switched to a gazebo in the park. As far as snacks. we did not do many. when we did it had a "purpose". I think we had snacks for the food pryamid. At some point when we covered how recyling works we had different food represent different types of trash, I think we did this when they were bears. Several times we had snacks /picnics in the middle of hikes, we usually had them help with planning and steered them in the direction of healthy. In some of the activities where they need to help prepare meals part of that would be desert. But in general we did not have snacks at every meeting. If your meetings are at 6:30 I assume they will last an hour. I assume some of the tigers go to bed by 8pm. Figure 15 minutes for opening and closing, setting expectations about what will be covered in the meeting etc. You are down to 45 minutes. 15 minutes for a game / song / skit etc. That leave 30 minutes for the program. If you do a snack that would be 10 minutes leaving around 20 minutes for the program. During our tiger and bear years we met on saturday's afternoon rather than through the week. We only met 2x a month, but for a couple hours each time. We never felt rushed that we didn't have time because kids needed to get home to go to bed. By having it in the day time if we saw they were getting bored we could easily give them a break by going to the playground throwing a ball, playing tag etc. Since we had blocked 2 hours we were not rushed since we could return to what needed to be covered.

It sounds like you pack doesn't camp much? Is the troop supplying the equipment? If not you are going to want to do a camping 101 program with the Web's parents ahead of time. If they are going to be buying equipment you want to make sure everyone doesn't buy more than they need and what they buy is correct for their intended purpose. For example if the troop doesn't supply the equipment are they a backpacking troop or car camping troop that is going to change my advice on tents, kitchens and even sleeping systems. The troop that my son would be most likely going to cross over to is a backpacking troop. But they supply the tents, stoves and backpacks (for the small scouts). It would not do any good to buy a white gas coleman camp stove and a 6 person tent if joining this troop. (I think there are pro's and con's of car camping vs backpacking troop so I do not want this to turn into that but it can be different equipment and different skill can be learned)

Look at the outdoorsman requirement and determine which ones you can incorporate. For example yo want to make sure that the scout help put up the tent. Outdoorsman can be completed pretty easily in a camping setting. 1 - talk to the troop about pack for camping. You could then have the Web demonstrate what they learned next den meeting 2 and 7- Teach the web how to make a fire and then plan a evening activities 4- have thrm set up the tents 5 and 6 - leave no trace / coservation project 10 - whip and fuse rope 11- use the rope in 10 to tie a dining fly 8 - participate in a meal planning / cooking using the dining fly made in 11

The good news is that all but one of the scouts that need readyman are now planning on going to the camp out. That scout has not responded either way so there is still a chance he will attend.

I think the issue is units attempt to combine AOL, cross over and even blue and gold into one event. So the lines become blurred between the AOL and cross over.

I know you are looking for indoor but I would second Hocking Hills. I assume that a lot of scouts from Cleveland Dayton have never seen that type of terrain. I have never done their scouts program but it appears that the Newport aquarium has a program. It is a pretty nice aquarium. http://www.newportaquarium.com/Groups/Specialty-Weekends/Scouts-Honor-Weekend.aspx that would be close for Dayton

so do we think that one of the goals of the change is to make the advancement to rank last longer?I think that a lot of packs plan on rank being achieved with Feb B&G. I have seen complaints that den meeting attendance and pack attendance suffers the remainder of the school year. By extending the length for rank advancement does that help with retaining scouts? In my unscientific observation the units that run a good summer program retain better than those that don't. Could this be true about lengthening the program to ensure a good March - May program. The counter to this is that a lot of parents and scouts view the scout season as Sept - Feb (with a natural slow down in Nov Dec) do they wabt it to be 9 or 12 mos long. One of the things that i liked about Webelos is that you are able to start working on AOL so March, April and May did not feel like we were killing time working on electives / belt loops etc.

Depending on finances I think it can make sense for the troop to purchase and own all of the tents. Spend the money on 2 man backpacking tents that can be used for backpacking and car camping. Obviously this cost money and might not be realistic.

Web 2 den. The scouts (not all of them went) that went to resident camp as Web 1 earned their readyman. This fall we have a camping opportunity with a troop where readyman will be presented. It appears that not all of the scouts are planning on attending that trip either. So I am going to have some scouts that have gone through readyman 2x while other have not taken the opportunity to attend either program. Readyman is one where I beleive it does not hurt to cover more than 1x. If I was to cover it we will probably be looking at 3 den meetings. So on the one hand I have always attempted to cover all (that can be covered) of the requirements for rank at the den meetings. So from that stand point I feel I should do readyman as a den. But the other side of the coin is this is that the ones who will still need it have choosen not to take advantage of the opportunities already presented. If we cover it as a den it is will limit the other activities we can do as a den.

Would need to deal with size, how many can be stacked, cleaning (and lining), seasoning, how many coals on the top and bottom, when to refuel, how to handle a hot lid. It also needs to outline charcoal vs wood. Dutch ovens are really complex.

I think this is another example where documenting the process makes these things go smoothly. Running the pinewood derby is 99% the same every year. But if a different person doing it each year and there is no recorded checklist of the tasks that need to be completed it becomes a much larger project.

Why does it need to be the den leaders? They are cordinating their den activities. Get other parents to join the committee and lead the pack level activities.

Most of the comments I have seen - Tigers - will take longer but most thought it was too easy to beging with - Getting rid of the sports and academic loops and pins. It will allow for more focus on the actually program. It might save packs some money if you have scouts and dens that forcus on these - Replacing the immediate recognition beads with loops - people are concerned with the cost. I don't know many who like the beads - Webelos transition - This was the biggest issue. They fixed this. The Web 1 will be able to finish AOL under the old program. - AOL - no longer requires webelos. It seemslike this will allow recruitment of 5th graders and they will still earn something. Rather than neededing to complete webelos on their own since the rest of the den would have earned it the past year - Cyber chip - It looks like this is required every year. Is directing the scouts to fcus more on computers in their best interest or should we be getting them outdoors?

One problem that I see with military surplus when it comes to packs is that it is made for adults. If you have a webelos or even a small boy scout it is not going to fit and will make backpacking hard the weight will be on the sholders and not the hips. A pack that doesn't fit will turn them off of camping.

I have not been around GS much. My sster was one back in the 70's and I have known girls that are the age on my son that have been involved. In my limited observation they lack the structure that the CO gives. It seem like anyone can start a unit, it is usually a parent of a group of friends who are the same age. That unit doesn't really seem to get bigger by adding younger scouts. It seems to have the issues that sometimes comes with the self charted packs and troops they never grow. As far a the girl scout program it appears that they have the opportunities to do the hiking and camping and such. But it is really if the unit takes advantage of it. Sure they do crafts but so do cub scouts. If you look at the age appropriate items for cubs vs the girls the same age It seems like the girls can actually do more within the rules.

Cabelas, Bass Pro shop, Gander Mountain, field and stream are not camping stores they are hunting and fishing stores. REI, Campmor, Seirra trading post are camping stores. I have both a Cabelas and REI locally the Cabelas is 2x to 3x larger but a lot less camping equipment that the smaller REI store. If the equipement is bright colors you are in a hiking camping store, if it is camo it is a hunting and fishing store that sell camping equipment. As far as Army / Navy stores I they peaked during when the USSR folded at that time you could get a lot of European gear cheap the Sportsmans Guide was mostly military surplus in the 90's, I don't think the supply is there anymore. I miss Army / Navy stores. Now it seems like the Army Navy stores cater towards the end of the world preppers.

Absolutely the alternative is that the original poster is the one doing all of the work. It sounds like he doesn't get any support from the parent nor does he get support from the other leaders and committee. Sometimes tough love is needed. Now in order to do this you need to cleary have the volunteer opportunities outlined. With pinewood derby" set up track, MC, run the computer, arrange the trophy purchases, manage the inspection and weigh in, tear down the track, run concession stand, etc. Every event has multiple tasks that need completed. You can do this a couple of ways either have someone sign up as the chair and then the others sign up as volunteers the chair then assigns the individual tasks or let people sign up for the tasks. Either way you need to have a pretty good idea of the tasks so you know how many volunteers you need for each event. This also makes planning easier each year because it becomes a check list. I have seen situation where people complain that no one is helping but then you will see people go to the leadership and ask if they need help, and the leadership don't know what to tell them to do because they are caught up in the moment of doing rather than leading.

If you are going to do this either in a letter or in person don't be wishy washy. My son's sim team requires each parent to volunteer 2 times. They track it. If you don't the kids do not get to swim in championship. Every kid ends up swimming in championships. There are expectation and consequences around volunteering. When people know the rules people tend to follow them. The swim team does have the ability to allocate extra volunteering to other families. I think a family with 5 kids (would have needed 10 volunteer opportunities) got some help from other people so that they didn't end up volunteering every meet. But this is less of an issue in cub scouts where the ages are 7-11 compared to a swim team with kids 5-18.

I don't know how big the pack is, but I would make an effort to talk to each of the parents and scouts. In my opinion the CM is the person that can work the room, not send a form letter. Our current CM is great, he develops a relationship with every scout (about 60) he also does the same with the parents. He knows when he needs to be silly, he knows when he needs to be the authority figure and he knows when he needs to be overbearing. He also knows what each den is working on w/o attempting to take over, but I assume if a den was struggling he would jump in. I don't think there are (m)any parents that would turn him down if he asked them to do something. But a letter would get ignored... we all ignore email all the time. I don't have that personality to be the CM. I noticed you said "I was CM on paper last year, to do the behind the scenes stuff" I don't think that the CM role is the behind the scene stuff that should be the committee / committee chair. It may be that you should be the CC or get a better CC so you can be the CM. I don't have that personality to be the CM. good luck

Maybe I am missing something but are the dining halls open all year round? I assumed that it was just for the summer camps. So one week a year they eat in the hall. assuming they are camping at least once a month that leaves a lot of patrol cooking.

That is close to 50 scouts at each campsite. That doesn't sound that enjoyable to me you are right up on each other.

I just got back from resident camp the Web 1 completed fitness, citizen and showman. Assuming they have been active for 6 months since school got out the end of May they could receive their Webelos in Nov, another 6 months puts them at the end of May for AOL. They can have it completed in a year with planning of which activities they work on. It is not my den so I don't know if that is the plan. This isn't to say that they would cross over then they could still work on additional items through the middle of 5th grade,